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The Official Gwok Jing vs. Golden Wheel Monk Discussion Thread
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Thread: The Official Gwok Jing vs. Golden Wheel Monk Discussion Thread

  1. #1
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default The Official Gwok Jing vs. Golden Wheel Monk Discussion Thread

    We have a legendary thread like this one for Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor, but Gwok Jing vs. the Golden Wheel Monk is also a perennially popular debate (although not as popular as Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor, of course) and probably should have its own thread rather than occupy a dozen stray threads spread out across the forum. The topic does seem to come up several times a year anyway.

    There was never truly a fair fight between them during ROCH. The closest we came to getting a true measure of their respective abilities was during the single palm clash they exchanged at Luk Family Manor. The information that Jin Yong provided from the result of that exchange was that Gwok Jing had somewhat superior martial arts technique while the Golden Wheel Monk had somewhat superior inner power, resulting in an overall draw. Jin Yong also remarked that it would take at least 1,000 strokes to determine the victor in a fight between Gwok Jing and the Golden Wheel Monk, but didn't really hint at who would emerge as the winner in such a fight.

    During the battle near Kublai Khan's base camp, however, Gwok Jing simultaneously held off the Golden Wheel Monk, Siu Seung Tze, and Lui Mor Singh (after having quickly taken down Wan Hak Sai and having Ma Gwong Jor drawn away from him by Yeung Gor). Even with the help of two partners, each of whom possessed martial arts superior to those of the top fighters of the Cheun Jen 5 Disciples (i.e. Yau Chui Gei, Wong Chui 1), the Golden Wheel Monk could gain no advantage on Gwok Jing and was unable to injure him until Yeung Gor created a distraction that forced Gwok Jing to leave his defenses momentarily exposed. This seems to suggest that Gwok Jing was superior to the Golden Wheel Monk overall.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Loke-Gao-Zhu's Avatar
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    I think Gwok Jin >>> GWM

    dragon palm + 9 yin is really powerful plus gwok jing got more spirit, energy and speed than GWM so Gwok Jing is just way better

    GWM is indeed strong but i think his spirit is not strong enough, he's old, non flexible, and cannot use his martial in full potential..but he's smart indeed........i i think GWM fights more tactically...so he cannot match up with GJ face to face... he cannot even beat Yeung Gwor + XNN in book 2....

    i was just wonder if YG+XNN (book 1-2 status) can beat GJ with the double sword combo move, i bet GJ will just break the 2 swords with 9 yin

    honestly when i first read the novel

    *GWM appears*

    who cares, at least YG won't get owned by him, plus he can escape

    GWM didn't frighten me much.....
    Last edited by Loke-Gao-Zhu; 10-24-06 at 05:48 PM.

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    Senior Member batmankiller's Avatar
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    you forgot the martial arts that JLFW learned at the end of the book.. the dragon elephant one (forgot name) he got to level 10 and was the only one to the do so, there are a maximum of 11. This raised his inner energy tremendously and further enhanced his martial arts. It would be close i do know that JLFW has more internal energy than YG as this was shown in the palm exchange in the end.. where YG couldn't implicate his sadness into his Palm technique.. only internal energy...and he lost the palm exchange.. or was knocked back..
    Last edited by batmankiller; 10-24-06 at 06:54 PM.

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    Unlike Guo Jing vs. Yang Guo, which I think is unresolved simply because they're so evenly matched, Guo Jing vs. Golden Wheel Monk is a fairly easy issue. Well, prior to the 16 year separation at least. I think GJ and GWM at the Heroes Meet could go on for 1000 stances and GJ will come out on top. And if GWM called him out for round two, GJ would whoop him then as well.

    However, after GWM reaches level 10 of his Dragon-whatever the hell it's called, his internal is more profound than GJ and just as refined, but he's still lacking in the martial skill department. Since we don't see GJ in action after the battle at the Mongolian camp, we can't say how much he improved, unless we give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he and Yang Guo are pretty much equal with each other (given what HYS says about Sad Palms being comparable to XL18Z, and putting his skills one level lower than theirs) and they're both the most powerful of the ROCH Greats. Given the fact that Yang Guo was about to lose to GWM because he was minus an arm, I think GJ would be able to fare better against him but I'm not sure who would eventually win.

    There is another factor in psychology. Throughout the story, Golden Wheel Monk was afraid to face Guo Jing 1 on 1 since he was worried he'd be embarrassed by losing, but he was never really afraid of Yang Guo and was more anxious to get revenge on him. In this respect, Guo Jing would give GWM a hell of a fight, but I still don't know who would win.

    Just an opinion.

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    Senior Member Allen D's Avatar
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    Yang Guo was gonna win till the monk cheated.
    Formerly DuGu Qiu Bai

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDonC
    There is another factor in psychology. Throughout the story, Golden Wheel Monk was afraid to face Guo Jing 1 on 1 since he was worried he'd be embarrassed by losing, but he was never really afraid of Yang Guo and was more anxious to get revenge on him.
    The Golden Wheel Monk seemed to develop a new psychological hangup each week depending on whom he couldn't beat in his most recent fight. He came into China very gung-ho that he could defeat anyone the Chinese could throw at him, but after getting a taste of Gwok Jing's Hong Lung 18 Palms, he lived in fear of fighting Gwok Jing fairly forevermore. Ditto with Yeung Gor and Little Dragon Girl's Double Sword Attack, Little Dragon Girl's SOLO Double Sword Attack, Yeung Gor's Heavy Iron Sword, and trying to face down three Greats (Chow Bak Tung, 1 Deng, and Wong Yerk See) simultaneously. The Golden Wheel Monk often defeated himself in his own mind before he even committed himself to physical combat with his foes.

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    Senior Member dracnom's Avatar
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    The sad palms is not all pure brute force like XL18Z.

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    Senior Member bloodstar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dracnom
    The sad palms is not all pure brute force like XL18Z.
    In ROCH GJ's XL18Z was beyond pure "hard" brute force. He infused 9 Yin theories in his mastery of Dragon Palms and brought a whole new level and dimension to it.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by batmankiller
    you forgot the martial arts that JLFW learned at the end of the book.. the dragon elephant one (forgot name) he got to level 10 and was the only one to the do so, there are a maximum of 11.
    I think you need to identify the facts with more effort. The Dragon Elephant Prana has 13 levels, not 11.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    I think you need to identify the facts with more effort. The Dragon Elephant Prana has 13 levels, not 11.
    Wait, hang on, he was still 3 levels below the full potential of The Dragon Elephany Prana? Wow, it is time I give more thoughts to this martial arts then. No wonder Chow Ba Thung was so interested in learning this martial art.

  11. #11
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felix
    Wait, hang on, he was still 3 levels below the full potential of The Dragon Elephany Prana? Wow, it is time I give more thoughts to this martial arts then. No wonder Chow Ba Thung was so interested in learning this martial art.
    In the previous SURVIVOR GAME, danshu_ and I proposed the possibility that Dragon Elephant Prana (DEP) could be the most powerful martial art in the Jin Yong universe. Based on the information given in the novel, he who reaches the 13th level of DEP could be 8 times more powerful than Golden Wheel Monk (since the power DOUBLES with each level increase). Imagine our joy when we realized the potential of this art, which we rarely paid attention to previously.

    This generated a great deal of discussion in the past. They're all in this topic, page 80 and beyond (40 posts per page): http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthre...&page=80&pp=40
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  12. #12
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    XL18Z is entirely brute force. However, it uses the force in a very efficient and effective manner. Not at all like using another art in a wild manner.


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    Lung Jeung Bor Yeh Gung was, in theory, extremely powerful. Pragmatically speaking, however, it might be moot because nobody, not even the technique's creator, has ever reached that thirteenth and final level. It might be humanly impossible.

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    Senior Member Bangs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    Lung Jeung Bor Yeh Gung was, in theory, extremely powerful. Pragmatically speaking, however, it might be moot because nobody, not even the technique's creator, has ever reached that thirteenth and final level. It might be humanly impossible.
    Maybe this is sweeper monk's secret. Maybe he reached the 13th level that is why he is god like.

    On topic, I believe GJ will win against JLFW, but it won't be an easy win.

  15. #15
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    It was confirmed in ROCH that up to that timeline, no human has ever reached the 13th level of DEP. By ROCH standards, one who lives 1000 years might be able to reach that level.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Because NO ONE ever reached the 13th level, EVEN the AUTHOR, so it was most likely that Dragon Elephant Divine Art was not really had 13 levels and the author of this Kung fu skill wrote that just for fun.

  17. #17
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RongYingMin
    Because NO ONE ever reached the 13th level, EVEN the AUTHOR, so it was most likely that Dragon Elephant Divine Art was not really had 13 levels and the author of this Kung fu skill wrote that just for fun.
    Just because the inventor of the art can't maximize his attainment in the art, doesn't mean the maximum level doesn't exist. The inventor of Qiankun Danuoyi could not master the maximum level of his art, so by your logic then the highest level of Qiankun Danuoyi doesn't exist. But we know it does exist, since Zhang Wuji mastered it. Which means your logic is false.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    Just because the inventor of the art can't maximize his attainment in the art, doesn't mean the maximum level doesn't exist. The inventor of Qiankun Danuoyi could not master the maximum level of his art, so by your logic then the highest level of Qiankun Danuoyi doesn't exist. But we know it does exist, since Zhang Wuji mastered it. Which means your logic is false.
    As I remember, in HSDS, the 2nd edition, in the piece of leather, QKDNY was wrote to be having 9 (or 10?) levels. But Zhang Wuji could only master to the 7th (or 6th?) level. He felt dizzy training the level above the 7th level. Then Jin Yong wrote that when the past Chiefs of Ming Cult found it hard to reach the highest level of QKDNY, they added nonsense things to the original version of QKDNY for fun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RongYingMin
    As I remember, in HSDS, the 2nd edition, in the piece of leather, QKDNY was wrote to be having 9 (or 10?) levels. But Zhang Wuji could only master to the 7th (or 6th?) level. He felt dizzy training the level above the 7th level. Then Jin Yong wrote that when the past Chiefs of Ming Cult found it hard to reach the highest level of QKDNY, they added nonsense things to the original version of QKDNY for fun.
    Your post has quite a number of points that needs to be corrected.

    1. QKDNY only has seven levels, in the 2nd edition.

    2. The greatest achiever of the art, besides ZWJ, has to be the creator of the kung fu itself. The creator could only reach level six because his internal energy, although powerful, was insufficient to progress to level seven. As a result, level seven was created merely based on his extensive knowledge and imagination. ZWJ was thus unable to complete level seven because there are nineteen sentences in level seven that cannot be accomplished.

    *Note: Nobody added nonsense for fun, it could result in dire consequences, and the last thing they want is to cause the gory death of their poor descendant who had painstakingly passed many levels of QKDNY, but died in the end.*
    Last edited by Pacifian; 10-26-06 at 03:53 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RongYingMin
    Because NO ONE ever reached the 13th level, EVEN the AUTHOR, so it was most likely that Dragon Elephant Divine Art was not really had 13 levels and the author of this Kung fu skill wrote that just for fun.
    You love using words like "just for fun", face it, can't you ever accept the logic that martial arts creators are putting it all their effort and thus if they were unable to go any further in their kung fu, they would experiment and think of other ways to make sure the kung fu created is really powerful, instead of being a joke, that could be fatal.

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