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Thread: Military men with great martial arts prowess?

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default Military men with great martial arts prowess?

    In wuxia novels, the average soldier is, without exception, a pitiably weak fighter by wulin standards. Even the average wulin Joe or Jane could mow down a dozen soldiers without breaking a sweat.

    What about military officers, however? Were there officer class military men whose martial arts could compete with wulin fighters? I'm not talking about wulin guys such as Kiu Fung and Gwok Jing who also had military careers on the side, but actual career military men who were not affiliated with wulin, but learned and practiced martial arts as part of their professional training as soldiers.

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    TommyH
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    Yue Fei might be one of those men you're looking for.

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    Senior Member Guo Xiang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TommyH
    Yue Fei might be one of those men you're looking for.
    I think Ken meant in wuxia novels.
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    Senior Member Thai guy's Avatar
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    How about the Yang Warriors of Northern Sung Dynasty?

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    Not wuxia, but how about Ming dynasty general Qi Jiguang? Seems like Chen taijichuan might have stemmed from his publications on Chinese pugilism.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guo Xiang
    I think Ken meant in wuxia novels.
    Actually, men such as General Ngok Fei or the Yeung Family Warriors would fit the bill quite well, as they were all alluded to as having existed in Jin Yong's wuxia universe. On the other hand, we never saw any of them in action, so it's hard to gauge where their martial arts fit in relative to the wuxia characters.

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    Senior Member SkineePanda's Avatar
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    You can add in Li Jing, who I think according to Fang Zheng in XAJH had a hand in editing Yi Jin Jing.

    And Song Taizu who created Taizu Long Fist.
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    Senior Member Thai guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkineePanda
    You can add in Li Jing, who I think according to Fang Zheng in XAJH had a hand in editing Yi Jin Jing.
    In TVB "Grand Canal", Li Jing was previously one figure in wuxia world. Yes, I think he fits the bill.

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    Mm...Zhu Yuanzhang...sort of...i don't think his martial arts skills were anything to be praised, but i'm pretty sure he still had some semblance of training in HSDS. Also, I'm pretty sure Chang Yuchun was a real historical figure and he knew martial arts.
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    Senior Member yittz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    Actually, men such as General Ngok Fei or the Yeung Family Warriors would fit the bill quite well, as they were all alluded to as having existed in Jin Yong's wuxia universe. On the other hand, we never saw any of them in action, so it's hard to gauge where their martial arts fit in relative to the wuxia characters.
    I don't see why a great such as OYF would be at all interested in the possibility of gaining Yue Fei's martial arts. Is it really that good?
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    Quote Originally Posted by yittz
    I don't see why a great such as OYF would be at all interested in the possibility of gaining Yue Fei's martial arts. Is it really that good?
    yeah, that part of loch confused me a bit too. But, i guess the point is that oyf wanted any martial arts that had a possibility of being good. I think there is a bit of irony in it though, because the Wu Mu Wei Shu (I think that's what the mandarin pinyin is..) is strictly a military book.
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    Quote Originally Posted by yittz
    I don't see why a great such as OYF would be at all interested in the possibility of gaining Yue Fei's martial arts. Is it really that good?
    That was not Yue Fei's martial arts everybody was searching for, it was a military strategy manual, written by military genius Yue Fei which everybody on the Earth wants, because it was so good that if a country was to employ the tactics written inside the manual in a war, victory would be somewhat ensured.

    How did ZWJ manage to remove the Mongolians from China? You guessed it right, it was this book.

    Chilly pepper, the book is called "Wu Mu Yi Shu", and there is no irony, it IS a military manual.

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    Senior Member IcyFox's Avatar
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    Oh come on guys... possibly anyone in Romance of the Three Kingdoms fit the bill. (Maybe except people like Liu Bei's son.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pacifian
    That was not Yue Fei's martial arts everybody was searching for, it was a military strategy manual, written by military genius Yue Fei which everybody on the Earth wants, because it was so good that if a country was to employ the tactics written inside the manual in a war, victory would be somewhat ensured.

    How did ZWJ manage to remove the Mongolians from China? You guessed it right, it was this book.

    Chilly pepper, the book is called "Wu Mu Yi Shu", and there is no irony, it IS a military manual.
    Manuals don't ensure someone would guarantee to achieve or win something.
    Its more the men who execute the actual ideas written. Sure theres a lot of wisdom and great tactics inside that manual, I dont see how hundreds of generations have passed from the time the manuals originally existed, people would surely have known of it and implemented tactics nearly if not the same as it. They would devise strategies to counter it.
    Its sounds too much of a mystical item in that sense like the one possess the one ring will rule with ensured victories.
    If it was so then the emperors who implemented the tactics in the manual wouldn't not have been defeated, and have their thrones ursurped.
    In the end its more of the ability of your army and the upports of the general nation.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yittz
    I don't see why a great such as OYF would be at all interested in the possibility of gaining Yue Fei's martial arts. Is it really that good?
    West Poison Au Yeung Fung's goal was not Ngok Fei's Mo Muk War Tactics Manual (although he did agree to help Yeun Nan Hung Lit and Yeung Hong obtain it in exchange for their assistance in eliminating his enemies), but knowing that the manual did include martial arts as well as war tactics, the martial arts nerd part of Au Yeung Fung couldn't resist being a little curious about the martial arts that the manual featured. I imagine that Au Yeung Fung wasn't too impressed by what he found in there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by strife_au
    Manuals don't ensure someone would guarantee to achieve or win something.
    Its more the men who execute the actual ideas written. Sure theres a lot of wisdom and great tactics inside that manual, I dont see how hundreds of generations have passed from the time the manuals originally existed, people would surely have known of it and implemented tactics nearly if not the same as it. They would devise strategies to counter it.
    If many people knew of the ideas written in the manual according to you, would they be hunting for the manual so eagerly?

    People have known about it, but where was it? Nobody knew, and there was a war occuring that time. Both warring parties have reached somewhat a stalemate, and knowing Yue Fei's excellent military skills, they knew it would be an asset to them if they possessed the book and incorporate the tactics written inside for the war. It is always good to have new ideas, especially when you knew that the person who produced the ideas was no ordinary man.

    Its sounds too much of a mystical item in that sense like the one possess the one ring will rule with ensured victories.
    You caught me, I was exaggerating earlier.

    If it was so then the emperors who implemented the tactics in the manual wouldn't not have been defeated, and have their thrones ursurped.
    If any emperor did implement those tactics, then I am sure it might happen.

    In the end its more of the ability of your army and the upports of the general nation.
    Sure. Even the military manual wrote this, however, wouldn't it just be beneficial if they were to possess the book and help themselves using some of the tactics when they are running out of them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by strife_au
    Manuals don't ensure someone would guarantee to achieve or win something.
    Its more the men who execute the actual ideas written. Sure theres a lot of wisdom and great tactics inside that manual, I dont see how hundreds of generations have passed from the time the manuals originally existed, people would surely have known of it and implemented tactics nearly if not the same as it. They would devise strategies to counter it.
    Its sounds too much of a mystical item in that sense like the one possess the one ring will rule with ensured victories.
    If it was so then the emperors who implemented the tactics in the manual wouldn't not have been defeated, and have their thrones ursurped.
    In the end its more of the ability of your army and the upports of the general nation.
    It's exactly the same mentality with people looking for 9Yam Manual. Of course, it would only help if you are able to understand the manual and implement it. But the access to the book gives you a chance right? Another thing is Chinese can be quite petty, no offense I'm a Chinese too, but Chinese doesn't usually pass their secret recipes to just anyone. That could probably be why such tactics or any martial arts are not just known by everyone.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akazukin
    It's exactly the same mentality with people looking for 9Yam Manual. Of course, it would only help if you are able to understand the manual and implement it.
    It's a little different. In practicing martial arts, success or failure is largely predicated on the abilities and efforts of the practitioner only. Thus, success or failure is largely (although not entirely) within the practitioner's control. In war tactics, however, one is dependent on circumstantial and environmental factors over which the practitioner might have NO control. A brilliant martial artist can figure out a way to overcome an obstacle in learning the 9 Yum Jen Ging, but even the most brilliant military mind with the greatest war tactics manual can't do much about famine-starved soldiers, or soldiers who are too selfish and terrified to fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    It's a little different. In practicing martial arts, success or failure is largely predicated on the abilities and efforts of the practitioner only. Thus, success or failure is largely (although not entirely) within the practitioner's control. In war tactics, however, one is dependent on circumstantial and environmental factors over which the practitioner might have NO control. A brilliant martial artist can figure out a way to overcome an obstacle in learning the 9 Yum Jen Ging, but even the most brilliant military mind with the greatest war tactics manual can't do much about famine-starved soldiers, or soldiers who are too selfish and terrified to fight.
    I don't know if I agree with that. Ok, the word of "exactly the same" is probably too ambitious. But overcoming obstacles in learning 9Yam Manual is only similar to overcoming obstacles in understanding and analysing the principle behind The War Manual.
    I guess 9Yam is a bit different because it includes healing techniques as well. But setting that aside, if we just talk about attacking and defencing tactics in battle, they both have the same mentality I guess. I do not agree that military leaders can't control soldiers' attitude, there is limit to how much they can control, but they can certainly trained them to think and behave the way a military soldier should behave. I guess with famine-starved soldier, a martial art fighter can hardly control his own stomach as well if he is starved in the cave. Of course there are other factors that the fighter or military leader can't control like natural disaster that might go against them. I think uncontrollable environment have effects on both war and martial arts success. That's why I say the mentality is similar, not everything is similar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pacifian
    That was not Yue Fei's martial arts everybody was searching for, it was a military strategy manual, written by military genius Yue Fei which everybody on the Earth wants, because it was so good that if a country was to employ the tactics written inside the manual in a war, victory would be somewhat ensured.

    How did ZWJ manage to remove the Mongolians from China? You guessed it right, it was this book.

    Chilly pepper, the book is called "Wu Mu Yi Shu", and there is no irony, it IS a military manual.
    Well, i know it's a military book. There are different types of irony. This was a bit of situational irony in that the audience (us) knows that the book is a military book, but OYF doesn't necessarily know that. (Sorry if I'm getting a little technical, but I am an English major after all.) I remember reading that OYF was interested in the Wu Mu Yi Shu (thanks for clearing that up, btw) because he knew that Yue Fei must be somewhat decent, if not better than decent, at martial arts. He wasn't following Wan Yan Hong Lie's orders just to follow them; there was a scene where he was thinking that he would take the Wu Mu Yi Shu for himself if it turned out to contain powerful martial arts. If it was only a military book, then he would give it to Wan Yan Hong Lie.

    I don't exactly remember where this scene was, but I definitely remember reading it.
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