View Poll Results: Which skill is stronger???

Voters
28. You may not vote on this poll
  • QQDNY

    20 71.43%
  • Dou Zhuan Xin Yi

    8 28.57%
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 43

Thread: Which skill is stronger, QQDNY or Dou Zhuan Xin Yi???

  1. #21
    Senior Member chibidaisuke's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    341

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    As far as I can remember at this time, only Dugu Qiubai and Murong Longcheng have been described as matchless under heaven (Tin Ha Mo Dik ?). There might be one of two others but I don't think more than 3, 4 characters have ever received this honor by Jin Yong.
    Maybe we should start a thread on 'Dugu Qiubai vs Murong Longcheng' haha.
    Last edited by chibidaisuke; 08-05-10 at 11:15 PM.

  2. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    1,120

    Default

    the one that wuji learn that was from the ming sect? didn't the 9 yang enabled the user to learn martial arts fast not the ming sect martial arts?

    i think thats why i like watching the 86 heaven sword with tony leung, when ever he used the qqdny ming sect technique, it will like show it go around his body or something n he would redirect the attack or something. also his tai chi at least was nicely used.

  3. #23
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    496

    Default

    Did MRLC build the Yen kingdom using his Star Shifting Technique?

    I don't think QKDNY is better than Star Shifting Technique. Yang Xiao was at level 1(2?) and still had his butt handed to him during the battle at the Peak. The wulin didn't accord as much respect/fear to the Ming Cult as much as the wulin respected the Murong family reputation.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Snafu3721's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    715

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hyoyatika View Post
    Did MRLC build the Yen kingdom using his Star Shifting Technique?

    I don't think QKDNY is better than Star Shifting Technique. Yang Xiao was at level 1(2?) and still had his butt handed to him during the battle at the Peak. The wulin didn't accord as much respect/fear to the Ming Cult as much as the wulin respected the Murong family reputation.
    To put it into perspective

    MRLC is in the league of 絕頂高手. He is in the Elites class of fighters in DGSD and possess internal and external mastery of Star shift. On the other hand, YX is only Tier 2 class relative in HSDS universe and only has rudimentary mastery of QKDNY. So it would not be a good comparison of the actual Arts themselves by just using MRLC and YX's reputation as a measuring stick.

  5. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    496

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Snafu3721 View Post
    To put it into perspective

    MRLC is in the league of 絕頂高手. He is in the Elites class of fighters in DGSD and possess internal and external mastery of Star shift. On the other hand, YX is only Tier 2 class relative in HSDS universe and only has rudimentary mastery of QKDNY. So it would not be a good comparison of the actual Arts themselves by just using MRLC and YX's reputation as a measuring stick.
    But if the skill was that awesome, it should had regardlessly, propel the fighter to a certain level of fame/reputation, which was not the case for Yang Xiao. His reputation was that as one of the Ming Cult Envoys, not because he has level 1(2?) of QKDNY. On the other hand, the Star Shifting Technique alone was enough to make the wulin believe that Murong Fu was equal to their darling boy Xiao Feng (South Murong, North Qiao Feng). XF initially thought Duan Yu was MRF, ie few actually saw MRF before, yet accorded him such great respect.

    YJJ, to cite another example, turned YTZ, a total crap fighter, into one who could cause a huge stir.

    I think this begets a question...would MRF beat ZWJ?

  6. #26
    Senior Member Snafu3721's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    715

    Default

    Between MRLC and MRF, there is a huge disparity between the practitioners. And wulin wasn't impressed by Star Shift alone, they we in awe of MRLC's entire repertoire of abilities and his achievements. So MRF was really riding the coat tails of his father's reputation. Once people actually saw MRF in action, it didn't really matter if he had Star Shift or not.

    And if you want to compare the techniques, then we should really be using ZWJ as the representative for QKDNY. This is a person who has caught up in many ways to ZSF--who the entire wulin also completely respects. It was only because QKDNY had been lost for quite a while that no one attributed ZWJ's prowess to QKDNY.

    IN fact, the Ming Cult used to shake wulin because they did have leaders who had mastered higher levels of QKDNY. We just didn't see it in action.

    Again, I think that making a comparison of an art based on only the reputation of a few of its practitioners would not be a good way to judge the actual art itself

  7. #27
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    496

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Snafu3721 View Post
    Between MRLC and MRF, there is a huge disparity between the practitioners. And wulin wasn't impressed by Star Shift alone, they we in awe of MRLC's entire repertoire of abilities and his achievements. So MRF was really riding the coat tails of his father's reputation. Once people actually saw MRF in action, it didn't really matter if he had Star Shift or not.

    And if you want to compare the techniques, then we should really be using ZWJ as the representative for QKDNY. This is a person who has caught up in many ways to ZSF--who the entire wulin also completely respects. It was only because QKDNY had been lost for quite a while that no one attributed ZWJ's prowess to QKDNY.

    IN fact, the Ming Cult used to shake wulin because they did have leaders who had mastered higher levels of QKDNY. We just didn't see it in action.

    Again, I think that making a comparison of an art based on only the reputation of a few of its practitioners would not be a good way to judge the actual art itself
    But ZWJ's most important skill was 9 yang, not QKDNY.

    Yang Xiao had QKDNY but no 9 yang and turned out to be good, but not elite. So while QKDNY was a great skill, it was not sufficient to turn a fighter into an elite.

    On the other hand, Star Shift was able to. I think we are short-changing MRF a little when we say that "once people actually saw MRF in action, it didn't really matter". MRF was probably the worst elite, but he was still an elite. People probably went "damn, MRF is nowhere as good as XF", but then again, how many of those people could beat MRF?

  8. #28
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    18,425

    Default

    I'm pretty sure Yang Xiao was only given the first 1-2 levels of QKDNY. He could have possibly progressed more if he had more access, though unlikely to surpass Yang Dingtian's level 3.5 (?) IMO.

    Personally, I feel present-day YX is more talented than present-day MRF. Give YX all of QKDNY and I think he could come out ahead of the young master.

    Back to the question of which art is stronger, based on the feats shown in the novels (which is admittedly limited for SST), I'm more impressed with QKDNY, especially Wuji unleashing the full, additive power of opponent's multiple attacks back to him at once. It was truly awesome. It IS the probably the harder art to learn, but the question was which art is stronger.

    Maybe there's more to SST than MRF demonstrated. Otherwise I really don't find it very revolutionary.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  9. #29
    Senior Member CC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    5,497

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    I'm pretty sure Yang Xiao was only given the first 1-2 levels of QKDNY. He could have possibly progressed more if he had more access, though unlikely to surpass Yang Dingtian's level 3.5 (?) IMO.

    Personally, I feel present-day YX is more talented than present-day MRF. Give YX all of QKDNY and I think he could come out ahead of the young master.

    Back to the question of which art is stronger, based on the feats shown in the novels (which is admittedly limited for SST), I'm more impressed with QKDNY, especially Wuji unleashing the full, additive power of opponent's multiple attacks back to him at once. It was truly awesome. It IS the probably the harder art to learn, but the question was which art is stronger.

    Maybe there's more to SST than MRF demonstrated. Otherwise I really don't find it very revolutionary.
    In DGSD, JY made a quote which made SST look really bad. I cant recall exactly but it went along the lines of 'SST could redirect an opponents force back _but_ XF managed to redirect You Tanzhi's attack _and_ add his own strike force into it. This kind of hinted that you don't even need SST to do the SST trick even better.

    Then in a later chapter, JY goes to quote how TSTL was so bloody impressed with MRF's energy shifting.

    Damn JY.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

  10. #30
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    18,425

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    In DGSD, JY made a quote which made SST look really bad. I cant recall exactly but it went along the lines of 'SST could redirect an opponents force back _but_ XF managed to redirect You Tanzhi's attack _and_ add his own strike force into it. This kind of hinted that you don't even need SST to do the SST trick even better.
    Exactly.

    Then in a later chapter, JY goes to quote how TSTL was so bloody impressed with MRF's energy shifting.
    This happened earlier. Maybe SST has an edge in that kind of situation (catching ppl falling from the sky), but I certainly didn't get the impression that it does in combat.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  11. #31
    Senior Member Mandred Skavenslayer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    1,178

    Default

    With the creator of neither skill ever putting in an appearance this is a very tough call. I would use each art's best seen practitioner to compare.

    For SST that would be MRF, not his father as we only get to see him in action after he had learned Shaolin Art. While MRF was undoubtedly good, he was by no means amongst the best. At best I see him as a top tier two fighter.

    For QKDNY it is Yang Dingtian. Although we never get to see him fight we can get a good estimate of his skill by the fact that he defeated Du'e the strongest of the Du monks. I think we can safely say that Du'e was the second greatest Martial Artists amongst the orthodox schools of HSDS, bested only by Zhang Sanfeng. That YD could blind him and convince all three Du monks to spend 30 years in meditation in order to defeat him speaks volume for how power they thought he was and he only reached level 4.

  12. #32
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    496

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    The inventor of Shifting North Stars, Mr. Murong Longcheng, is hailed as matchless under heaven during the Five Kingdoms/Early Song period before DGSD. This is possibly the period when legendary super powerhouses like the Inventor of 6MSJ, The Founder of Xiaoyao Pai, and the monk who learned 23 of the 72 Supreme Arts of Shaolin roamed. And yet, one man claimed the reputation of bearing unmatched superiority over them all -- Murong Longcheng, inventor of Shifting North Star technique. Based on this information, it is hard to imagine Murong Longcheng not being one of the greatest heroes in the history of martial arts (say, top 5 of all time), and Shifting North Stars not being a match for Qiankun Danuoyi.
    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    I'm pretty sure Yang Xiao was only given the first 1-2 levels of QKDNY. He could have possibly progressed more if he had more access, though unlikely to surpass Yang Dingtian's level 3.5 (?) IMO.

    Personally, I feel present-day YX is more talented than present-day MRF. Give YX all of QKDNY and I think he could come out ahead of the young master.

    Back to the question of which art is stronger, based on the feats shown in the novels (which is admittedly limited for SST), I'm more impressed with QKDNY, especially Wuji unleashing the full, additive power of opponent's multiple attacks back to him at once. It was truly awesome. It IS the probably the harder art to learn, but the question was which art is stronger.

    Maybe there's more to SST than MRF demonstrated. Otherwise I really don't find it very revolutionary.
    Time does change things...

  13. #33
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    496

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandred Skavenslayer View Post
    With the creator of neither skill ever putting in an appearance this is a very tough call. I would use each art's best seen practitioner to compare.

    For SST that would be MRF, not his father as we only get to see him in action after he had learned Shaolin Art. While MRF was undoubtedly good, he was by no means amongst the best. At best I see him as a top tier two fighter.

    For QKDNY it is Yang Dingtian. Although we never get to see him fight we can get a good estimate of his skill by the fact that he defeated Du'e the strongest of the Du monks. I think we can safely say that Du'e was the second greatest Martial Artists amongst the orthodox schools of HSDS, bested only by Zhang Sanfeng. That YD could blind him and convince all three Du monks to spend 30 years in meditation in order to defeat him speaks volume for how power they thought he was and he only reached level 4.
    Why wouldn't MRB be considered just because he learnt Shaolin Art? We have no idea what YDT learned besides QKDNY.

    Also, MRB was able to defeat Xuanbei with SST comfortably after failing to do so using 1YZ.

  14. #34
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    24,367

    Default

    Also, MRB was able to defeat Xuanbei with SST comfortably after failing to do so using 1YZ.
    Wait...Mo Yung Bok learned the 1 Yeung Finger Technique? I did not know this.
    Last edited by Ken Cheng; 07-15-17 at 10:47 AM.

  15. #35
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    496

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Wait.. Mo Yung Bok learned the 1 Yeung Finger Technique? I did not know this.
    Xuan Ci sent Xuanbei to the Gusu residence to pay MRB a visit after the Yan men incident.

    Xuanbei grew suspicious and MRB grew angry. He wanted to kill Xuanbei, but waited till Xuanbei visited Dali. His goal was to create conflict between Dali and Shaolin. As such, he tried to kill Xuanbei using 1YZ. Unfortunately, his 1YZ was not good enough and in the end, he killed Xuanbei using his Northen Shifting Star Technique.

  16. #36
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    24,367

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hyoyatika View Post
    Xuan Ci sent Xuanbei to the Gusu residence to pay MRB a visit after the Yan men incident.

    Xuanbei grew suspicious and MRB grew angry. He wanted to kill Xuanbei, but waited till Xuanbei visited Dali. His goal was to create conflict between Dali and Shaolin. As such, he tried to kill Xuanbei using 1YZ. Unfortunately, his 1YZ was not good enough and in the end, he killed Xuanbei using his Northen Shifting Star Technique.
    I wonder where the heck Mo Yung Bok got 1 Yeung Finger Technique from. Even the Siu Yiu Sect's extensive martial arts library was missing the 1 Yeung Finger Technique and Hong Lung 28 Palms from its otherwise comprehensive catalog.

  17. #37
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    18,425

    Default

    It's more likely that MRB used something resembling YYZ (that's Yiyang Zhi, not Toronto Airport ), such as Canhe Finger. Because it was hinted that MRB didn't use Yellow Eyebrowed Monk's own Vajra Finger against him, instead using something similar.

    This has changed in 3rd ed. Now it says MRB used his family art and failed (!!) until he specifically used SST:

    慕容博径以家传武技抵御,不料玄悲武功渊深,“大韦陀杵”威力奇劲,远出慕容博意料,他一时轻敌,登感不支 ,只得施出“斗转星移”之技,将“大韦陀杵”还击玄悲自身,玄悲登时中招毙命。
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  18. #38
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    18,425

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hyoyatika View Post
    Time does change things...
    It depends on which logic you use.

    My original perspective was Murong Longchen = invincible = invented SST => so SST must be great great great. This is still true but it ignores comparing actual feats.

    Then I switched to the perspective that QKDNY seems > SST based on feats. This ignores MRLC's invincibility.

    It's not impossible to reconcile the two: maybe MRLC was really invincible but that era's level sucked, or what we see of SST in DGSD is watered down.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  19. #39
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    496

    Default

    The biggest issue I have here is that I think many of us are underrating Star Shifting Technique. Just based on this reputation, the wulin made MRF XF's equal. Now I'm not saying this is true (obviously MRF is weaker), but the point is that SST struck so much fear and/or awe that the wulin was more than willing to decide that MRF was as good as their darling boy Xiao Feng even without seeing MRF in action! That to me, speaks volumes of how good SST is. Yet I somehow get the feeling that alot of us here are rating SST based on MRF! Which again, if we were to argue, MRF is also one badass!

  20. #40
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    18,425

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hyoyatika View Post
    The biggest issue I have here is that I think many of us are underrating Star Shifting Technique. Just based on this reputation, the wulin made MRF XF's equal. Now I'm not saying this is true (obviously MRF is weaker), but the point is that SST struck so much fear and/or awe that the wulin was more than willing to decide that MRF was as good as their darling boy Xiao Feng even without seeing MRF in action!
    While true, this isn't an indication of how good SST actually is.

    So how good is it actually? We only see MRB use it once against XF, and it wasn't impressive: he couldn't return the move back to the enemy, only off to the side, presumably b/c it (in the hands of MRB) was too weak to succeed on XF. This is consistent with the narrator saying SST doesn't work on a stronger opponent.

    Is it possible that MRB didn't master it? Sure. But based on 3rd ed saying that MRB thought not-so-highly of SST (hence stealing Shaolin's kung fu), I really don't think it's meant to be that great.

    In comparison, ZWJ's use of QKDNY to store 10 x Fan Yao's power and release it back to the enemy at once is seriously impressive. It (along with Taiji) also doesn't have a stated limitation of not being able to use it against a stronger opponent.
    Last edited by PJ; 07-16-17 at 01:01 PM.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

Similar Threads

  1. Fired Fish - The Outsiders (Dou Yu)
    By gumball in forum Taiwanese TV Series
    Replies: 351
    Last Post: 01-10-11, 12:57 AM
  2. Ji Gong Xin Zhuan (Zhang Mo, Zhang lan lan)
    By forU4nd1 in forum Mainland China TV Series
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 05-04-08, 12:45 PM
  3. ????/Goku Dou High School
    By NanaShigeru in forum Taiwanese TV Series
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 04-11-08, 12:52 PM
  4. Bobby Dou Zhi Kong
    By girly in forum Actors
    Replies: 48
    Last Post: 10-24-07, 02:27 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •