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Thread: Why is Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung so underrated?

  1. #21
    Senior Member Ardor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by owbjhx

    Perhaps Jin Yong thought it was his duty as a devout Buddhist to critique the rival faith of Taoism.
    Well, that can't be true. According to Jin Yong, all Tibetan Lamas are power hungry and evil.
    Burying his Dugu 9 Jian manual under an epitaph, Dugu Qiubai felt he has left his legacy for the next generation. He then moved to Shaolin to study Buddhism, sweep floors and tap elite fighters.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardor
    Well, that can't be true. According to Jin Yong, all Tibetan Lamas are power hungry and evil.
    Perhaps Jin Yong's nationalism exceeds his love for Buddhism. Thus the law of foreigners = evil.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardor
    Well, that can't be true. According to Jin Yong, all Tibetan Lamas are power hungry and evil.
    How much of Tibetan Lama history do you know?

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    Senior Member Ardor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen
    How much of Tibetan Lama history do you know?
    Enough to know that not all of them are power hungry and evil. How much of non-Chinese/Western propoganda on Tibet do you know?
    Last edited by Ardor; 10-31-06 at 07:58 PM.
    Burying his Dugu 9 Jian manual under an epitaph, Dugu Qiubai felt he has left his legacy for the next generation. He then moved to Shaolin to study Buddhism, sweep floors and tap elite fighters.

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    Senior Member yittz's Avatar
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    WCY having the arguably the best disciples?

    His hardly stands out as the best. HYS's disciples were just as good, if not having so much more potential (yes age means a lot). I don't see Ma Yu dearing to pick a fight with a blind MCF.

    ZBT definitely had a lot of influence from WCY - but what are the 2-3 things readers remember about his martial arts? QZ? Hardly, it'd be vacant fist, L/R technique (which ironically made XLN pawn QZ) and 9Yin.

    DG had 2 disiples (not counting FCY), both did not get direct teaching from DG, but both went from zero to hero in a short while. His sword theories is just above anything WCY can come up with.
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  6. #26
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    One thing to remember is that none of Wong Chung Yeung's disciples began training in the martial arts until they were adults in their thirties. Most of the other Greats' students had trained in the martial arts since childhood. The very fact that the Cheun Jen 7 Disciples managed to go from non-practitioners of martial arts to high-level practitioners within just a few years suggests that Wong Chung Yeung's teaching methodologies were effective.

  7. #27
    Senior Member batmankiller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yittz
    WCY having the arguably the best disciples?

    His hardly stands out as the best. HYS's disciples were just as good, if not having so much more potential (yes age means a lot). I don't see Ma Yu dearing to pick a fight with a blind MCF.

    ZBT definitely had a lot of influence from WCY - but what are the 2-3 things readers remember about his martial arts? QZ? Hardly, it'd be vacant fist, L/R technique (which ironically made XLN pawn QZ) and 9Yin.

    DG had 2 disiples (not counting FCY), both did not get direct teaching from DG, but both went from zero to hero in a short while. His sword theories is just above anything WCY can come up with.
    Exactly, this point has been said a lot throughout this thread. I mean the disciples are sorta what carries out your legend.. remember in ROCH when JLFW desperately wanted a disciple so he could teach him/her the Great Elephant prathna skill (forgot name) so people could remember his greatness. Same concept here... WCY.. crappy disciples=no legend after that. I mean come on.. with their age they should've accumlated a massive amount of internal energy, yet Fo Dou (JLFW's disciple) and even the "updated" version of JLFW's other disciple (when he learned how to spin his mace.. similiar to JLFW's wheels) they would put a good fight and even beat one of the QY elders... and they were like in their 30s.. almost half the year behind in internal experience/energy.

  8. #28
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    I think some of the logic here in comparing the disciples or quasi-disciples of Wong Chung Yeung and Dook Goo Kau Bai is kind of backwards.

    Yeung Gor, Fung Ching Yeung, and Ling Wu Chung were able to get so much out of Dook Goo Kau Bai's theories because they were extraordinarily talented.

    Ma Yuk, Yau Chui Gei, and Wong Chui 1 got what they did out of Wong Chung Yeung's training because their individual talent was limited compared to YG, FCY, and LWC.

    As such, looking at the disciples isn't a definitive standard because of the discrepancy of individual talent.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardor
    Enough to know that not all of them are power hungry and evil. How much of non-Chinese/Western propoganda on Tibet do you know?
    Chinese propaganda on Tibet and Western propaganda on Tibet are polar opposites.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yittz
    WCY having the arguably the best disciples?

    His hardly stands out as the best. HYS's disciples were just as good, if not having so much more potential (yes age means a lot). I don't see Ma Yu dearing to pick a fight with a blind MCF.

    ZBT definitely had a lot of influence from WCY - but what are the 2-3 things readers remember about his martial arts? QZ? Hardly, it'd be vacant fist, L/R technique (which ironically made XLN pawn QZ) and 9Yin.

    DG had 2 disiples (not counting FCY), both did not get direct teaching from DG, but both went from zero to hero in a short while. His sword theories is just above anything WCY can come up with.
    It took 16 years for Yang Guo to get from hero to zero and he had snake bladders to help his internal energy. On top of that, Sad Palms was Yang Guo's greatest art, not Heavy Iron Sword.

    Linghu Chong's sword art was very good. But in a fight against Chong Xu, Linghu Chong would have lost easily unless it was purely based upon the sword. The same with LHC against Ren Woxing; if RWX hadn't died from heart failure, LHC would surely have lost very quickly. Sure, LHC was arguably better than Ling Pingzhi and his master, but let's not forget that both LPZ and LHC's master had only learned Pixie Jian Fa for a shorter time than LHC had learned Dugu Qiubai's kung fu. In another 20 years, could LHC defeated LPZ and his own master's Pixie Jian Fa? That's still debatable. Linghu Chong could see Dong Fang Bu Bai's weakness, but he was never quick enough, never good enough to use it to his advantage.

    Additionally, Mei Chaofeng's kung fu came from Jiu Ying Bai Gu Zhua. That was not a Huang Yaoshi martial art.

    ZBT's martial art (Kong Ming Quan and L/R hand technique) could not have been possible without Wang Chongyang's martial art philosophies. Even beyond that, if you all you remember is ZBT's Kong Ming Quan and L/R hand technique and not Xian Tian Gong, then you haven't been paying attention to the stories. Pre Heaven martial arts not only defeated all 4 other Greats, they all still respected Wang Chongyang deeply to the end of their life. Not an easy thing to do amongst so strong and confident men such as Yi Deng, Hong Qigong, Ouyang Feng and Huang Yaoshi. Men who usually believed that there was nobody "Greater" than themselves.
    Last edited by Dennis Chen; 11-01-06 at 02:25 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen
    It took 16 years for Yang Guo to get from hero to zero and he had snake bladders to help his internal energy. On top of that, Sad Palms was Yang Guo's greatest art, not Heavy Iron Sword.
    from hero to zero

  12. #32
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exodus
    from hero to zero
    Freudian slip. Dennis is one of my Anti-Yeung Gor Fascists.

  13. #33
    Senior Member yittz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    Freudian slip. Dennis is one of my Anti-Yeung Gor Fascists.
    LOL. I blame YG for this WCY 'bad image'

    To Ken and Dennis:

    I completely agree with what is said. I am not saying WCY deserve to be overlooked, just offering my view why he may possibly be disregarded (albeit underdeserved).

    The only disciples better than QZ (out of greats) is the two HYS' iron-bronze, but they had 9Yin bits, they were younger. GJ had so much going for him. I imagine XLN's master would be better. And QZ were old geezers when they started and weren't extremely talented (say vs HYS's disciples). But that maybe overlooked by the readers. Third generation is even worse...so lets not go there.

    Yes WCY made ZBT, but his two skills are remembered as being self-invented.

    I guess I attibuted the snake bladders as a benefit of DG as well, but in a few month YG could match QQR.

    The whole point of this thread is to present how good WCY really is, even he was cast upon a bad shadow by ROCH.
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by yittz
    LOL. I blame YG for this WCY 'bad image'

    To Ken and Dennis:

    I completely agree with what is said. I am not saying WCY deserve to be overlooked, just offering my view why he may possibly be disregarded (albeit underdeserved).

    The only disciples better than QZ (out of greats) is the two HYS' iron-bronze, but they had 9Yin bits, they were younger. GJ had so much going for him. I imagine XLN's master would be better. And QZ were old geezers when they started and weren't extremely talented (say vs HYS's disciples). But that maybe overlooked by the readers. Third generation is even worse...so lets not go there.

    Yes WCY made ZBT, but his two skills are remembered as being self-invented.

    I guess I attibuted the snake bladders as a benefit of DG as well, but in a few month YG could match QQR.

    The whole point of this thread is to present how good WCY really is, even he was cast upon a bad shadow by ROCH.

    I can accept that.

    I don't hold Wong Chung Yeung accountable for anything that happened among his third generation disciples or later because, after all, he had died before any of them were even born. The onus for their failures lies with the second generation Cheun Jen Sect members.

  15. #35
    Senior Member yittz's Avatar
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    Another thing bad about WCY's image - this one he deserves: Sneaking a peak at 9Yin - he broke his word.
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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yittz
    Another thing bad about WCY's image - this one he deserves: Sneaking a peak at 9Yin - he broke his word.
    I wonder why he did that. Wong Chung Yeung doesn't strike me as the kind who can't resist temptation...especially for "mere" curiosity's sake.

    Also, did he technically break his word? I think he vowed never to use it in combat; I don't think he vowed to not even peruse it.

  17. #37
    Senior Member Exodus's Avatar
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    because WCY didn't married LCY

  18. #38
    Senior Member yittz's Avatar
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    Well he just sat on it (9 Yin I mean not LCY), ZBT said he will never use it after he mistakenly learnt it after reading it. But it seems after WCY realised AT black start QZ, he couldn't resist using 9 Yin to have the last laugh (unfortunately it backfired when YG saw it).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen
    It took 16 years for Yang Guo to get from hero to zero and he had snake bladders to help his internal energy. On top of that, Sad Palms was Yang Guo's greatest art, not Heavy Iron Sword.

    Linghu Chong's sword art was very good. But in a fight against Chong Xu, Linghu Chong would have lost easily unless it was purely based upon the sword. The same with LHC against Ren Woxing; if RWX hadn't died from heart failure, LHC would surely have lost very quickly. Sure, LHC was arguably better than Ling Pingzhi and his master, but let's not forget that both LPZ and LHC's master had only learned Pixie Jian Fa for a shorter time than LHC had learned Dugu Qiubai's kung fu. In another 20 years, could LHC defeated LPZ and his own master's Pixie Jian Fa? That's still debatable. Linghu Chong could see Dong Fang Bu Bai's weakness, but he was never quick enough, never good enough to use it to his advantage.

    Additionally, Mei Chaofeng's kung fu came from Jiu Ying Bai Gu Zhua. That was not a Huang Yaoshi martial art.

    ZBT's martial art (Kong Ming Quan and L/R hand technique) could not have been possible without Wang Chongyang's martial art philosophies. Even beyond that, if you all you remember is ZBT's Kong Ming Quan and L/R hand technique and not Xian Tian Gong, then you haven't been paying attention to the stories. Pre Heaven martial arts not only defeated all 4 other Greats, they all still respected Wang Chongyang deeply to the end of their life. Not an easy thing to do amongst so strong and confident men such as Yi Deng, Hong Qigong, Ouyang Feng and Huang Yaoshi. Men who usually believed that there was nobody "Greater" than themselves.
    Have you ever seen Heavy Iron Sword against Sad Palms to make that conclusion? HIS may not necessary lose out to Sad Palms even though Yang Guo did not use it later on, instead, Yang Guo can be said to be 'overconfident' about the wooden sword stage. HIS against Sad Palms, it will be all up to the internal energy and don't forget that Heavy Iron Sword will have a stronger force produced due to the weight.

    About Linghu Chong and Dongfang Bubai, LHC could not see DFBB's moves as DFBB was too fast. DFBB practised KHBB which emphasized on speed, so he was too fast for LHC to attack. In another 20 years, LHC would have mastered DG9J and LPZ and his master would not be able to defeat him. DG9J gets stronger as the opponent gets stronger.

    So what? Can Preheaven stance defeat the theories left behind by DGQB? Can it surpass the internal energy required for the no sword stage? Characters like DGQB make dead characters like WCY look pathetic.

  20. #40
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    The Five Quanzhen Masters exit the Yuxu Cave. After seeing Golden Wheel Monk and the other three warriors attacking Dragon Girl, Qiu Chuji and the others thought:"If our late Master is still alive he would surely be superior to them, our martial uncle Zhou is probably also one level higher than these four men in the field of martial arts. Yet, when facing the combined forces of these four fighters, chances are high that he will suffer defeat."

    I don't know if this means that only Zhou would be defeated by the combined force of the four, or that both Wang Chongyang and Zhou Botong when facing the four fighters alone will suffer defeat.
    If the first explanation is true, than Wang Chongyang would at the least tie with the four warriors of Mongolia, and at best Wang could defeat them all. This brings Wang Chongyang at the level of Guo Jing in ROCH or even higher (Guo Jing was only able to tie with them, he could not overcome them totally).
    If we choose the other alternative than Wang Chongyang is somewhat weaker than Guo Jing (at this point of the story). In other words, Guo Jing has surpassed Central Divinity. But no matter what: Wang Chongyang was still better than Zhou Botong and the other Greats at this point of the story! Zhou Botong is more or less equal to Huang Yaoshi, Yideng and the others. The Five Masters believe that Zhou is not as good as their late master, this automatically means that the other Greats have not surpassed Wang Chongyang (yet?).

    One could argue that the Five Masters haven't saw Zhou Botong for quite a few years, but it is a fact that when Zhou Botong first encountered Golden Wheel Monk and the other warriors, he did NOT really try to fight them. Which is very peculiar, for Old Zhou loves a good fight. But Zhou Botong is no dummy, after having made fun of them he ran away instead of fighting. This is a sign that he himself knew that he could not handle them on his own.
    After the 16 years separation, the remaining Greats might have surpassed Wang Chongyang... I dunno.
    Another reason why I think that Wang Chongyang was indeed much more advanced in the field of martial arts is: he read the Book of Nine Yin, pondered about it for more than 10 days and was able to absorb the contents without ever training it. The other Greats are not able to do this. Zhou Botong too, was able to do so, but this was because he, like Wang Chongyang are Taoist martial artists AND because had the first part of the book with him for more than ten years. He read it for many years and could ponder about it for years, while his brother Wang Chongyang only needed 10 days.
    What Yideng said was more about the great effects of the Flower Jade Pills but if you like to use it as an indication for the Greats' situation... fine. But I don't understand why a simple remark of Yideng concerning some pills makes such sense to you, while the analysis of the Quanzhen masters about their teacher''s martial arts level is treated as "biased", "they just don't know" or "something someone said 50 or 60 years later". How come Yideng''s words form the undeniable truth while the thoughts of the Quanzhen Masters are gibberish?
    Maybe Duan Zhixing (Yideng) at the time was really tired, but how does he know Wang Chongyang was exhausted after the tournament? Maybe Yideng just assumed Wang was exhausted or maybe he just didn't paid much attention to it. Just because Yideng says it does not make it true even though he believes it's true.

    Besides, Wang Chongyang was much older than the other four greats, so it is not very strange he got tired. Just because he was tired doesn't mean a thing. In HSDS Zhang Sanfeng was clearly invincible yet due to his old age, Zhang Wuji was reluctant to let him engage in combat.

    Furthermore, I did not say Guo Jing was equal or more powerful than Wang Chongyang.
    I said:If the first explanation is true, than Wang Chongyang would at the least tie with the four warriors of Mongolia, and at best Wang could defeat them all. This brings Wang Chongyang at the level of Guo Jing in ROCH or even higher (Guo Jing was only able to tie with them, he could not overcome them totally).
    If we choose the other alternative than Wang Chongyang is somewhat weaker than Guo Jing (at this point of the story). In other words, Guo Jing has surpassed Central Divinity.
    I only said it was POSSIBLE that Guo Jing was equal or more powerful than Wang Chongyang..
    And yes, I do believe that within a few years, Guo Jing has made tremendous progress and has surpassed the Four Greats at the Mongolian Camp.
    But the fact is: we don't know how the Huashan Contest was fought. We don't know how good Wang Chongyang was.
    The only indication is the part in ROCH Chapter 26, thoughts of Qiu Chuji and the others. To use Ren Wo Xing's words: That's good enough for me.

    I tend to disagree, it is not certain whether Wang Chongyang was "just slightly" better than the others. There are also not really any indications on whether he died because of the tournament (although I feel that being his old age + the tournament took a heavy toll on his body did have a roll in it). But those are just conclusions drawn by the readers.
    Furthermore a lot of people think that the other "Greats" were not fully developed in the field of martial arts that's why Wang Chongyang could defeat them.
    But that is not really logical, is it? Because if the other "Greats" hadn't reached a high profiency in martial arts they wouldn't be invited in the first place. And they were representatives of the top-notch of that era in Wulin, so it is safe to say that they were very good.

    The Five Masters of Quanzhen are very capable of making a very objective comparison. First of all they are 5 martial arts experts and had gathered a lot of profound insight in martial arts and theories of martial arts.
    Which makes them very capable of making a sound assessment of the situation.
    (They cannot be compared to the young Zhang Cuisain, Zhang had no idea what the level of martial arts his teacher Zhang Sanfeng had. Zhang Cuisan was young.)
    Secondly they were the disciples of Wang Chongyang, they knew what level of martial arts their teacher had. If these were thought of for instance a third generation pupil like Li Zhichang I wouldn't believe it. But the thoughts of the 5 Masters carry a lot of weight, in my humble opinion.
    The five of them blasted the doors open of Yuxu cave and saw the battle between Xiao Longnu and the 4 Mongolian warriors. When they saw that fight they were very very disappointed and even depressed. It is unlikely that they would boast their reputation of Quanzhen at that time even in their thoughts. And the Five Masters aren't ego-trippers.
    We have to consider it was not Central Divinity v.s. Eastern Wicked, West Venom, Southern Emperor and Nothern Beggar. The other four duelled with each other too.
    Those seven days were a mixture of discussion on martial arts theories, and duelling with each other. It lasted that long because it was a tournament with a certain established rules. For example after a duel between Central Divinity and Northern Beggar where Wang Chongyang won. He couldn't be challenged anymore by West Venom. Even if West Venom wanted to do that the others wouldn't allow it. (With Ouyang Feng's fame he wouldn't even take advantage of such a situation). Remember that Huang Yaoshi refused to fight Hong Qigong after Hong had a battle with Ouyang Feng.
    It lasted that long because each and everyone was given a fair chance to win.
    It wasn't like the four of them would take turns challenging only Wang Chongyang it was contest between 5 superior martial arts masters. But for all we know the tournament could have been like the TVB 1994 LOCH adaption, who knows?
    In the end he won we don't know by how much.
    It was stated in the novel somewhere that Wang Chongyang's level of martial arts was a level higher than the other Greats. But that isn't conclusive.
    Because in ROCH it was written that the Golden Wheel Monk's martial arts was also a level higher than Li Mochou.
    A level higher is a very ambiguous term (in Jin Yong novels).
    I for one find the the statements of the Five Masters much more reliable than an ambiguously used term.
    But that's me.........
    The five masters did not compare their late teacher and Zhou Botong to Xiao Longnu. Furthermore they could not even see what stances she used. She was so incredibly fast, they could only see flashes of light. (They were not the only ones, even the Imperial Priest etc. were unable to see what stances she used). Furthermore they did not witness the feat Guo Jing accomplished at the Mongolian camps. They were thinking about martial arts in general, about who is capable of holding ground against the attacks of these four. Although it was not mentioned but they must have been impressed that a young girl could keep those martial artists at bay. Because Xiao Longnu was fighting a losing battle at that time.

    Qiu Chuji and others now turned around and were observing the battle between Xiao Longnu and the Imperial Priest etc. After observing for a few moments, they looked at each other and looked very sad and depressed. They thought: "In vain.....everything was in vain. We never thought that the martial arts of the Ancient Tomb School would be this magnificent. We can never defeat her in this lifetime."
    The martial arts previously displayed by Yang Guo and Xiao Longnu were the blueprints for their ponderings and contemplation. But the incredible, fantastic swordsplay of Xiao Longnu was too awesome. They could not even see what those stances are, how could they think of a way to counter it?
    The Imperial Priest and the other Mongolian warriors had higher martial arts than the Five Masters of Quanzhen. It was practically impossible for the Quanzhen School to even produce someone like them now.
    Qiu Chuji and others thought:"If our late Master is still alive he would surely be superior to them, our martial uncle Zhou is probably also one level higher than these four men in the field of martial arts. Yet, when facing the combined forces of these four fighters, chances are high that he will suffer defeat."
    The Five Masters were ashamed and depressed, they felt that Quanzhen was degrading with each generation. They could not carry on the legacy of their patriarch anymore. When faced with a great enemy it seems that Quanzhen School has no leg to stand on anymore.
    However their new technique [The Seven Star Assembly] has overcome the Lamaist Sect of Mongolia. Which will benefit the protection of the country to outer invasions. Wulin quarrels are trivial, but protecting one's nation is vital. Losing to the Ancient Tomb School is of no concern, but losing to the Mongolians is not an option.
    I translated this bit from the novel (edition 3).
    We all agree that Li Mochou is nowhere near Imperial Priest Jinlun, but Jin Yong used the term [he was one level above her.]
    Therefore the term is ambiguous [one level above someone], it could mean the discrepancy between Wang Chongyang and the other Greats was as big as the gap between Imperial Priest Jinlun and Li Mochou.
    Wang Chongyang did defeat the four Greats, but one can remove the [just] part. We do not know how he won. Was it really a just call? Or did he simply defeated them plainly? We do not know, it is unfair to state that Wang Chongyang was just a bit better than the remaining 4 Greats.
    The Imperial Priest did do his best against Xiao Longnu, he was impressed and overawed but that didn't stop him from trying his best to defeat her.
    He did not hold back, he even threw in his Five Wheels Enciclement again, which failed again.
    His Dragon Elephant Wisdom Skill should be present even 16 years ago. Albeit not level 10 but still it should be a level 9. I agree that Imperial Priest Jinlun should be half a level below the Greats.
    The four of them (including Ni Moxing, Yin Kexi and Xiaoxiang Zi) were closing in on Xiao Longnu. They did not attack furiously, because they knew if they attacked they could not match the speed of Xiao Longnu. So they defended with everything they had and slowly stepped forward to close her in.
    They were fighting optimally against Xiao Longnu.
    What I am saying is that 16 years ago, even the remaining Greats could not defeat these four experts. And at that time the remaining Greats were all nearly 80 years old.
    Granted, if the evaluation of the 5 Masters is true.
    Plus Wang Chongyang raised his martial arts level again with the Jiuyin manual. He absorbed the essence of Jiuyin just by reading it for more than 10 days, he became proficient in it----> edtion 3.
    It is very possible that the 4 Greats at the end of ROCH caught up with Wang Chongyang, because at that time all of them were almost 100 years old. And had another extra 16 years to cultivate their internal power.
    Personally, if we assume that the assumption made by the Five Masters is correct: Wang Chongyang can fend off the combined attack of those 4 Mongolian experts and defeat the four of them.

    Wang Chongyang died probably when he was 80+ years old. Wang's talent in martial arts was said to be superior (or at least not inferior) to the other Greats including Qiu Qianren and Zhou Botong. Like some of the other Greats Wang Chongyang had access to Jiuyin. Wang Chongyang successfully absorbed the essence of Jiuyin into himself. I think it is very unlikely that the other Greats (including Zhou Botong and Qiu Qianren) have caught up with Wang Chongyang's level (when Central Divinity was 80 years old) when they are just 70+ (pre 16 years ROCH) or even 50 +, 60 in LOCH.
    I think Wang Chongyang (before his death 80+ years old) should have at least the same level of the other Greats (90+ years old) at the end of ROCH.

    None of the other Greats had freebies like Yang Guo (gall bladder), the only freebies some of them had was Jiuyin and Wang had that too. He died two years after the tournament, he had Jiuyin in his possession. The novel said he attained profiency in the art of Jiuyin.
    The excuse "didn't have the time to study" is nonsense!
    Chen Jialuo only "trained" the Chuangtzu martial arts for a few days and immediately he was able to defeat a martial arts expert who was before half a level better than himself easily. Did Yuan Chengzhi train the martial arts of the Golden Snake Swordsman all the time? No, he hardly studied the thing! But he could use parts of those skills to defeat an opponent (evil Taoist priest Yuzhen Zi) who was probably as good as his own teacher.
    Discussing martial arts between two masters can be a very long process! How does he know that it lasted for 1 day, Hu Fei in the Young Flying Fox had an informal discussion on martial arts with Qin Naizhi of the Baji School, that informal chat lasted for over 4 hours! Hu Fei had another informal chat on martial arts with Ji Xiaofeng of the Huashan Fist School, that chat lasted an entire morning.
    Can you imagine how long a talk on martial arts between those 5 Greats could last?

    The first part of the analysis made by the Five Masters was already correct. Zhou Botong, himself, knew he wasn't a match for those 4 (Golden Wheel Monk) if they combined forces. And they haven't seen Zhou for about two decades, but they were correct. The argument: peer review is also flawed. Yideng/Duan Zhixing was a peer of Wang Chongyang in name. Wang defeated Duan Zhixing and was superior to him, how can they be peers? Murong Fu was a peer of Xiao Feng too, a peer in name. Would Murong Fu be able to make a clear analysis of Xiao Feng's martial arts level?
    Even if he made one, would we find it believable? About the Huang Yaoshi aged 30 and Yang Guo aged 20 bit. It is not that 30 year old Huang Yaoshi's internal strength is a bit better than Yang Guo.
    The reason why that roar of Yang was so powerful was because of Huang Yaoshi. Huang Yaoshi used his internal energy to help Yang recover a day earlier, however Yang Guo had Ancient Tomb and Jiuyin energy stored in him. Adding the different style of internal power of Huang Yaoshi, his body needed to vent out everything.
    The abundant powerful energy of East Heretic, the Ancient Tomb stored energy (because of the Ice bed) and the Taoist fluent Jiu Yin. Result is a roar that can only be produced by someone like a Great.
    Huang Yaoshi's comment was how is it possible that this child is able to do such a feat at his age. What kind of strange encounter(s) did he have? Huang, himself, was only capable of doing such a thing (a roar of a Great) when he was 30.

    On the disciples of Wang Chongyang; Quanzhen disciples v.s. Disciples of the other Greats.
    There lies the contradiction (in my eyes). Ouyang Ke was often ranked as equal to the mercenaries of Wanyan Honglie (Sha Tongtian, Peng Lianhu, etc.) but also he was also sometimes ranked as equal to Ma Yu, Qiu Chuji and Wang Chuyi.
    In chapter 11 the part where Yang Tiexin met up with Qiu Chuji again after all those years, we can see that Peng Lianhu, Hou Tonghai and Ouyang Ke combined forces to attack Qiu Chuji. Qiu Chuji held his ground and reached a stalemate with them. If Ouyang Ke was equal to Qiu Chuji, with the assistance of two other peers of himself wouldn't he be able to kill Qiu Chuji rather fast? But that doesn't happen. A poisoned Ma Yu was able to ward off a combined attack of Sha Tongtian and Liang Ziweng (again two martial artists ranked as peers of Ouyang Ke) for a short while.
    *1 Qiu Chuji began to lose when all of them (including Liang and Sha) attacked him.
    Sha Tongtian, someone who was often ranked as equal to Ouyang Ke throughout the novel, clashed palms with Qiu Chuji. Qiu was only a bit shocked to see that this bald man can take his palm, Sha's arm felt numb and pain. Sha Tongtian engaged Qiu Chuji again with bare hands, Qiu Chuji whisked him on his head with his fingers; leaving red imprints on the bald head of Sha. Qiu Chuji was able to force Peng Lianhu to drop one of his Judge's brushes in a few bouts.
    It would seem that one on one, those mercenaries of Wanyan Honglie are inferior to Qiu Chuji (and subsequently Ma Yu and Wang Chuyi as well*2)

    *1: This happened before Ma Yu was poisoned.
    *2: Ma Yu, Qiu Chuji and Wang Chuyi were all the three strongest of the Seven Masters. Ma Yu's fighting skills and technique wise profiency was said to be a bit inferior to Qiu Chuji and Wang Chuyi. (Although, I think he makes up for that with more stronger and abundant internal energy. Jin Yong never said that Ma Yu had the strongest or deepest internal strength compared to the others, but he did always stress that Ma Yu had deep and profound energy more than he did with the others).

    My look at this is: How can Ouyang Ke be equal to the Seven Masters, and also to those mercenaries? Did Jin Yong mean that they belonged to the same class category? That is possible, but as equals that would seem not true.
    Lav ranked the weaker masters of Quanzhen as equals to the mercernaries (including Ouyang Ke), while Ma, Tan, Liu, Qiu, Wang were a notch better.
    If you read some of Laviathan's posts on ranking LOCH and ROCH mid-level fighters in the past, you often would see that in his eyes Sun Bu'er (or Hao Datong)= Ouyang Ke.

    On the top of that, Ma Yu and Qiu Chuji were able to do some things that impressed Huang Yaoshi a bit.
    Qiu Chuji was able to whisk Huang in the chest with his sleeve, but that was because Huang underestimated Qiu. But nonetheless, not bad for old Qiu.
    Ma Yu counter attacked Huang Yaoshi's attack during their battle in Misty Rain Pavilion. Huang Yaoshi stormed at Ma, assuming that Ma would not be able to do anything but move away from his key position in the formation. But Ma Yu raised his sword and counter attacked. His technique was steady and firm, generated with powerful internal energy. Huang Yaoshi moved away and genuinly praised:"Worthy of being the Quanzhen head disciple!"

    Wang Chongyang is a man with dimensions. He is a man with a personality, we see him (albeit indirectly) he interacts with us. Dugu Qiubai is just a character concocted to creat the so-called cool x-factor. And Jin Yong succeeded, as I grow older and maturer I lose appeal in characters like Dugu Qiubai and so on. I have more interest in characters like Wang Chongyang, (third edition) Huang Yaoshi, (Gu Long's "warrior in white" in the Tale of the Rinsing Sword and Flowers). Obscure, dimensional (with flaws) but on the other hand so tragic and yet appealing.
    I never set out to put down Wang Chongyang as the contemporary of Dugu Qiubai, but more as a man (a proto-type) of both Guo Jing and Yang Guo with their good and bad traits.
    As for the Lin Chaoying thing, both Lin and Wang were to blame. But Lin went overboard with the spitting part. Wang Chongyang and Lin Chaoying were equally matched in almost anything, alas that was also why they never got together.
    Because either one of them were practically peerless in the realm, the only one who could be their worthy opponent happened to be each other. Their mutual talents and personalities was what drew them to each other, but it was also these two traits that drove them apart from each other in the end.

    They loved each other dearly, but they never understood each other and never took the time to look into each other's souls and examine what the other party wanted. Lin Chaoying loved Wang Chongyang, but she still wanted to prove to Wang Chongyang that she is not inferior to him. During their duels, sparring she would often pout or throw tantrums just to have an edge over Wang Chongyang. Wang Chongyang would often be bemused by these antics but in the long run, I can imagine that he would grow tedious of such behaviour. The same goes for why Lin Chaoying would become very angry when Wang Chongyang pretended not to see her hints of love. In the final conflict between them, Wang Chongyang first thought in order to prevent any further conflicts with her, I will defeat her and she will forsake this relationship once and for all.
    But when he heard her saying that if she were to be defeated she will commit suicide, he reconsidered and decided to lose to her and marry her.
    However, something went wrong then. Because although, he did not know how she was able to write in stone he suspected something was amiss.
    And the next day he decided to become a Taoist priest after all. Marriage, relationship is all about trust. And before they were to get married, Lin Chaoying was already dishonest. How can a marriage work then? It is not surprising if Wang Chongyang felt disappointed and rather become a Taoist priest then step into a disastrous marriage. Wang Chongyang, himself is also to blame if he planned to give in then call off the duel. But he did not.
    These two martial arts masters were good people, but they were also extremely proud. If either one of them was just a bit less stubborn and proud they could have been a wonderful couple.

    WCY always seem to be able to pull me back to this place. Strange......
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

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