Why is Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung so underrated?

[tape]

Now that's the biggest overstatement I've read in a long time.

Of course I am referring to Yang Guo. Feel free to refute my statement considering he was

a.) propelled to the top (top meaning Greats level --not opening the YG/GJ can of worms)
b.) he did not master Dugu's sword theories

[ChronoReverse]

He did have the advantage of eating those snake bladders though. It's not like the HIS alone could have pushed him to his new level.

[tape]

He did have the advantage of eating those snake bladders though. It's not like the HIS alone could have pushed him to his new level.

He might have eventually got there anyway. But your point is valid.

It doesn't really change the fact that unmastered Dugu sword theories is already >> than anything we've seen masters of 9 Yin do, so at the very least I would rank it above 9 Yin by a fair margin.

[tape]

On a side note, YG gets a lot of flak for not earning his martial arts due to the snake bladders. JY could easily have just skipped the gall bladders and given all the credit to the HIS and training in a river/waterfall and it would have been just as believable.

No JY favoritism here !

[ChronoReverse]

Huh. That has no meaning at all. I might as well say that JY could have skipped all the HIS stuff, had YG eat the snake bladders, then develop Sad Palms and hey presto he's using a Great-class martial art with Great-class internal energy.


Your other comment doesn't make much sense either since HIS on its own wouldn't have been usable by YG in any meaningful way until he built up his internal energy enough.

[CC]

My 2 cents.

Why WCY gets so little respect compared to DGKB.


1.) YG's fans. By hyping DGKB to the nth level, it hypes up HIS/Wooden Sword so YG gets more credit.

2.) Martial Arts name worshipping over the actual fighter. 'Divine' arts like 6MSJ, 9 Yang, 9 Yin gets much credit from some corners. WCY didn't have those (Xian Tian Gong didn't have enough hype). I am pretty sure that if WCY's feats remained exactly as JY described it in LOCH/ROCH but if it was mentioned that he learnt 9 Yang, quite some people would give him more credit.

3.) Probably the biggest reason. SPCNET STYLE WUXIA MATH over Author Intention.

[tape]

Huh. That has no meaning at all. I might as well say that JY could have skipped all the HIS stuff, had YG eat the snake bladders, then develop Sad Palms and hey presto he's using a Great-class martial art with Great-class internal energy.


Your other comment doesn't make much sense either since HIS on its own wouldn't have been usable by YG in any meaningful way until he built up his internal energy enough.

You are missing the point that was being discussed. The point in question was the level of Dugu sword theorie, not anything about YG in particular. YG is just here to give us an idea of the level Dugu sword theories can bring you to, just as Guo Jing shows us the level of 9 Yin. YG not mastering wooden sword and still being Greats level indicates Dugu sword theories are somewhat above Greats and 9 Yin theory.

The only scenario where this wouldn't be true is if you believe YG is not representative of Dugu sword theories due to the snake gall bladders -- but I would refute that by YG realizing he has not even mastered the wooden sword stage yet.

[tape]

1.) YG's fans. By hyping DGKB to the nth level, it hypes up HIS/Wooden Sword so YG gets more credit.

.

Well, at least you credit YG fans with more intelligence than is normal with this elaborate scheme.

[tape]

My 2 cents.

Why WCY gets so little respect compared to DGKB.

Gotta blame JY for the portrayals of their martial arts. One is an old geezer that took 7 days to beat people 40 years younger than him and the other is some invincible guy with cool swords that would be happy to find someone to make him even defend.

[PJ]

My 2 cents.

Why WCY gets so little respect compared to DGKB.


1.) YG's fans. By hyping DGKB to the nth level, it hypes up HIS/Wooden Sword so YG gets more credit.

2.) Martial Arts name worshipping over the actual fighter. 'Divine' arts like 6MSJ, 9 Yang, 9 Yin gets much credit from some corners. WCY didn't have those (Xian Tian Gong didn't have enough hype). I am pretty sure that if WCY's feats remained exactly as JY described it in LOCH/ROCH but if it was mentioned that he learnt 9 Yang, quite some people would give him more credit.

3.) Probably the biggest reason. SPCNET STYLE WUXIA MATH over Author Intention.

Actually, I think the biggest reason is that WCY is just "not cool" like DGQB.

WCY's students are 7 old taoists, while Dugu's students are a Supra-Great-level giant bird (!!), Yang "Cool and Handsome" Guo, and HE WHO BLINDS 30 ELITE EYES WHEN HALF DEAD.

WCY is for old ppl, while Dugu attracts the young.

[PJ]

It's not like the HIS alone could have pushed him to his new level.

Actually, do we really know how much of his Amazing Gain (TM) was due to snake bladder and how much due to HIS training?

HIS trained him intensely, could it have been so good that it was contributed even more than the snake bladders?

[Ken Cheng]

Gotta blame JY for the portrayals of their martial arts. One is an old geezer that took 7 days to beat people 40 years younger than him and the other is some invincible guy with cool swords that would be happy to find someone to make him even defend.

Wong Chung Yeung's opponents were four of the greatest martial artists of all time.

We don't know whom the hell Dook Goo Kau Bai was fighting; it'd really help if we knew whether DGKB's opponents were also Greats-level fighters or Sa Tung Teen-level fighters.

[tape]

Wong Chung Yeung's opponents were four of the greatest martial artists of all time.

We don't know whom the hell Dook Goo Kau Bai was fighting; it'd really help if we knew whether DGKB's opponents were also Greats-level fighters or Sa Tung Teen-level fighters.

Well the question was WHY Dugu gets more hype than WCY, and not whether it's true or not, so that's the part of the answer.

As for your other comments, the Greats at the time of WCY's dominance were hardly the greatest martial artists of all time. Even their LOCH counterparts were not quite cream of the crop, and that's 20 years later. They are probably not much better than people like Duan Yanqing imho. Dugu's opponents might be unknown, but the pre-LOCH era is also quite shabby.

[ChronoReverse]

Actually, do we really know how much of his Amazing Gain (TM) was due to snake bladder and how much due to HIS training?

HIS trained him intensely, could it have been so good that it was contributed even more than the snake bladders?

Consider how HIS ultimately consists of (1) massive internal energy (2) an unfair weapon (3) heavy strikes that are somehow exempt against redirection

(1) has nothing to do with Dugu
(2) has nothing to do with Dugu
(3) is all about Dugu but somehow discards every single other instance where heavy strikes with a heavy weapon has disadvantages to go along with the advantages.

HIS technique's reality-bending is more subtle but equally horrendous as some of DG9J's more notable bendings.

I guess from this we simply have to accept that Dugu's technique is something out there. Nonetheless, despite reality-bending, massive internal energy and an unfair weapon, this is just equal to the Greats. The portion that's actually due to Dugu doesn't even bring the practioner to a Great's level.

You are missing the point that was being discussed. The point in question was the level of Dugu sword theorie, not anything about YG in particular. YG is just here to give us an idea of the level Dugu sword theories can bring you to, just as Guo Jing shows us the level of 9 Yin. YG not mastering wooden sword and still being Greats level indicates Dugu sword theories are somewhat above Greats and 9 Yin theory.

Then you're not getting what I'm trying to point out here. I'm maintaining that the majority of the advantage YG initally achieved to match the Greats was more due to the massive internal energy boost than HIS technique. It also is entirely dependent on a specific weapon. I'm not a YG hater like KC so please don't paint me that way. YG's the one that used Dugu's techniques to clearly match up to the Greats so he's ultimately the one where most comparisons and analysis has to draw from.

Furthermore, we don't even know if the wooden sword stage is necessarily stronger than HIS. It's more versatile, not being dependent on a specific weapon, but it could simply be matching HIS's power even without the HIS. You'll note that YG's incomplete wooden sword stage was actually weaker than a Great. Plus YG himself, when musing about the wooden sword stage, set the goal of matching the HIS technique's ability without the HIS.

[tape]

Then you're not getting what I'm trying to point out here. I'm maintaining that the majority of the advantage YG initally achieved to match the Greats was more due to the massive internal energy boost that HIS technique. It also is entirely dependent on a specific weapon.

Furthermore, we don't even know if the wooden sword stage is necessarily stronger than HIS. It's more versatile, not being dependent on a specific weapon, but could simply be matching HIS's power even without the HIS. You'll note that YG's incomplete wooden sword stage was actually weaker than a Great.

We don't know how much was due to energy and how much was due to the technique. But since that is unanswerable, I'll move on to the next point.

The wooden sword stage is at the very least stronger than the pre-HIS 16 years ago. Why? 16 Years ago he was able to clash head on with GWM which resulted in a draw, and 16 years later he was able to do the same thing. Except GWM doubled his power in the meantime. He was able to generate more force with a wooden sword than he was able to generate with the HIS 16 years ago, meaning he improved greatly.

Why would you say incomplete wooden sword is weaker than a Great? The brief exchange with GWM shows (as usual) a draw. His sword got broken, but GWM's wheels got knocked away also. No other Great could take GWM's blows head on -- yet YG could. How does that make him weaker than a Great?

[ChronoReverse]

We don't know how much was due to energy and how much was due to the technique. But since that is unanswerable, I'll move on to the next point.

But we do know.
(1) The technique doesn't work, period, without the HIS
(2) YG was barely even able to wield the sword before the internal energy boosts let him stand against the torrents
(3) The crux of the technique was simple strikes. This was the limit that it could be because the Divine Condor wasn't able to impart actual stances to YG.

Item (3) came back to bite YG later when he was trying to move to the wooden sword stage. He realized that it could be accomplished with high technique or even more supreme internal energy. Since he wouldn't be able to receive the high technique from Dugu, he tried to push for it using internal energy but did not succeed (he did manage to increase his internal energy greatly).

Why would you say incomplete wooden sword is weaker than a Great? The brief exchange with GWM shows (as usual) a draw. His sword got broken, but GWM's wheels got knocked away also. No other Great could take GWM's blows head on -- yet YG could. How does that make him weaker than a Great?

YG also increased his internal energy since then as well. Plus he lost out when using a metal sword. GWM's wheels were quality weapons but not precious.

As for "no Great could take GWM head on", that's handily disproven by
(1) ZBT fully dissipating GWM's force (he couldn't deal damage to GWM either)
(2) Yideng taking on GWM's full force for some time (indications are that he'd eventually lose out since he's so old)
(3) HYS's flicked pebble (Divine Finger Snap) had such force that GWM didn't even dare do anything but dodge it

[Dirt]

Gotta blame JY for the portrayals of their martial arts. One is an old geezer that took 7 days to beat people 40 years younger than him and the other is some invincible guy with cool swords that would be happy to find someone to make him even defend.

You keep repeating that; Athena and some others have mentioned that the 7 days included fighting and martial arts theories. Also, after WCY fought OYF, HYS could'nt challenge WCY because he had just fought. As has been mentioned before, each Great wanted to be sure that they were fighting someone who wasn't already tired, that the only advantage that one Great should have over another in each fight is in their skiills, their talents the the fruits of their hard labour alone. The above sentiments was reflected in the 2nd Hua Shan Tournament as well as Yi Deng's identification of HYS's medicine which indicates that the Greats did rest and heal after the battles. You keep ignoring all that in your WCY bashing.

I have no doubt that Dugu Seeking a Loss would want the same thing had he been at the 1st Hua Shan. Or do you think DGQB would take advantage of a person who was already tired? What's the point of defeating someone like that if you're truly looking for someone who could defeat you? I think you'd want that person to be at their most optimum! And given his interest in martial theories DGQB would probably want to discuss his theories with the theories of the other Greats. The 1st Hua Shan was both martial and academic.

[Dirt]

You are missing the point that was being discussed. The point in question was the level of Dugu sword theorie, not anything about YG in particular. YG is just here to give us an idea of the level Dugu sword theories can bring you to, just as Guo Jing shows us the level of 9 Yin. YG not mastering wooden sword and still being Greats level indicates Dugu sword theories are somewhat above Greats and 9 Yin theory.

You assume the Sword Theories are superior to Internal Arts. How amazing was DGJ9 against the blinding speed of KHBD? Even a neutered (heeheehee) KHBD? DG9J is not the end all be all. Give DG9J to Guo Jing or even to Yang Guo and it's useless because it doesn't suit their personalities. Just as Hama Gong wouldn't suit Hong Qi or Yi Deng's personality. But that didn't make Hong Qi or Yi Deng inferior to Ouyang Feng.

In the end, time and time again, it is always shown that a battle between 2 Masters comes down to internal arts. Even had Yang Guo learned the epitome of DGQB's sword theories, it wouldn't have made him anymore powerful than if Guo Jing had learned Hong Qi's Da Gou Bang Fa which I believe Hong Qi said was a better art than XL18Z.

[tape]

You keep repeating that; Athena and some others have mentioned that the 7 days included fighting and martial arts theories. Also, after WCY fought OYF, HYS could'nt challenge WCY because he had just fought. As has been mentioned before, each Great wanted to be sure that they were fighting someone who wasn't already tired, that the only advantage that one Great should have over another in each fight is in their skiills, their talents the the fruits of their hard labour alone. The above sentiments was reflected in the 2nd Hua Shan Tournament as well as Yi Deng's identification of HYS's medicine which indicates that the Greats did rest and heal after the battles. You keep ignoring all that in your WCY bashing.

I have no doubt that Dugu Seeking a Loss would want the same thing had he been at the 1st Hua Shan. Or do you think DGQB would take advantage of a person who was already tired? What's the point of defeating someone like that if you're truly looking for someone who could defeat you? I think you'd want that person to be at their most optimum! And given his interest in martial theories DGQB would probably want to discuss his theories with the theories of the other Greats. The 1st Hua Shan was both martial and academic.

My post was a bit tongue in cheek and you took it much more offensively than was intended.

Again we are talking about portrayals here reflecting on why someone gets under/over rated. Whether that is the truth or not isn't as important as how the portrayal makes a reader think of them. The way ZBT describes the fight makes it sound like it was an intense, 7 day fighting where a victor finally emerged. That is unquestionably the feeling one gets from the scene -- whether it happened that way or not is not important if your question is WHY some people would think WCY is not ranked as high as Dugu.

[PJ]

Consider how HIS ultimately consists of (1) massive internal energy (2) an unfair weapon (3) heavy strikes that are somehow exempt against redirection

(1) has nothing to do with Dugu
(2) has nothing to do with Dugu

I'm only interested in how much HIS contributed to Yang Guo's Amazing Gain. I see a possibility that it coould have contributed a lot to his internal energy gain, whereas most ppl attribute most (if not all) of it to snake bladder.

As for Dugu Qiubai, I've always been convinced that he is a great warrior, but it is interesting how much hate he gets here, hehe.