Why is Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung so underrated?

[tape]

But we do know.
(1) The technique doesn't work, period, without the HIS
(2) YG was barely even able to wield the sword before the internal energy boosts let him stand against the torrents
(3) The crux of the technique was simple strikes. This was the limit that it could be because the Divine Condor wasn't able to impart actual stances to YG.

Item (3) came back to bite YG later when he was trying to move to the wooden sword stage. He realized that it could be accomplished with high technique or even more supreme internal energy. Since he wouldn't be able to receive the high technique from Dugu, he tried to push for it using internal energy but did not succeed (he did manage to increase his internal energy greatly).




YG also increased his internal energy since then as well. Plus he lost out when using a metal sword. GWM's wheels were quality weapons but not precious.

As for "no Great could take GWM head on", that's handily disproven by
(1) ZBT fully dissipating GWM's force (he couldn't deal damage to GWM either)
(2) Yideng taking on GWM's full force for some time (indications are that he'd eventually lose out since he's so old)
(3) HYS's flicked pebble (Divine Finger Snap) had such force that GWM didn't even dare do anything but dodge it

(1) The technique most likely does work, it just does not work as well.
(2) That doesn't address the issue at all. Perhaps the snake bladders improved his inner strength by 50 points, enabling him to lift the sword, and the sword training further gave him 200 points. The snake bladders were important, but the training could still have been much more important.
(3) There is clearly some technique to it besides simple, straight forward strikes even if that is the underlying theory. Every martial artist understood that principle, with Dragon Palms having the exact same principle, yet it is differentiated in some way. I just assume it is some wuxia mechanic where the idea is supposed to be extremely profound, but there is no way to convey it to the reader except in a more mundane and understandable way.


I don't consider YG having "lost out" in that exchange since both weapons were knocked away. I don't see how you can judge that in any way but a draw. No Great could take GWM head on as in take the full force of his blows.
(1) ZBT was able to only defend, because he dared not received the blow head on. YG is able to take the blow head on and attack/defend. I would say he has the advantage.
(2) Yideng and GWM dodged each other's blows iirc. He would not be able to take the force head on.
(3) The only instance of HYS against GWM is when he flicked a pebble at his wheel from far away, and GWM was amazed at how much strength there was. I don't know if that's the same scene you are describing, but that is hardly head on and GWM certainly did not dodge it.

Either way, I don't see YG as being weaker than the Greats in any way, with or without HIS, and with or without Sad Palms. Give him either and he would likely beat them, and give him HIS and he would definitely beat them.

[ChronoReverse]

I'm only interested in how much HIS contributed to Yang Guo's Amazing Gain. I see a possibility that it coould have contributed a lot to his internal energy gain, whereas most ppl attribute most (if not all) of it to snake bladder.

I dunno. It bothers me that the HIS could have contributed a significant portion of YG's internal energy (and perhaps it bothered JY too since he put in the snake bladders) because it implies that weight training can give you Great-class internal energy, something that contradicts everything in JY's wuxia canon.

As for Dugu Qiubai, I've always been convinced that he is a great warrior, but it is interesting how much hate he gets here, hehe.

There's no doubt about that in my mind. I'm even certain that his peak level was above the level of the ROCH Greats. It's interesting how polarizing he is though. People tend to settle on either "DGQB is a martial arts GOD" or "DGQB is a crazy quack".

With that said, JY sort of failed when he actually tried to define DGQB's skills leading to situations that don't really make much physical sense once you think about it.


@tape

(1) ZBT was able to only defend, because he dared not received the blow head on. YG is able to take the blow head on and attack/defend. I would say he has the advantage.
(2) Yideng and GWM dodged each other's blows iirc. He would not be able to take the force head on.
(3) The only instance of HYS against GWM is when he flicked a pebble at his wheel from far away, and GWM was amazed at how much strength there was. I don't know if that's the same scene you are describing, but that is hardly head on and GWM certainly did not dodge it.

(1) Pretty much a draw when neither could do anything to each other isn't it? Besides, ZBT was enjoying the duel while GWM was getting worried.

He did not know what skill Fawang used, so he used his seventy-two stance ‘Vacant Fists’ to battle him. He used void to intercept solid and nothingness to block solidity. By doing so, he rendered the awesome power of Fawang useless; but it was also impossible for him to wound his adversary.

Fawang had attacked with several stances now, yet it seems his stances could not even tickle his opponent. He became frustrated that his dexterity, which he trained for many years, had not helped him to gain the upper hand.

(2)

In the beginning there was only one meter or so in between Reverend Yideng and Fawang; but soon, after dodging palm blasts and evading finger fire, the gap between them gradually became wider. They were now standing about four meters apart from each other and used their internal strengths to battle each other from afar.

(3) I messed up here. I was thinking about the blast Yideng sent at GWM earlier. Still, it shook GWM's wheel indicating that their internal energy was comparable.

and give him HIS and he would definitely beat them.

In the end it comes down to this. It wasn't the technique that did jack but that YG had an indestructible precious weapon that doesn't heed the laws of physics.

[tape]

You assume the Sword Theories are superior to Internal Arts. How amazing was DGJ9 against the blinding speed of KHBD? Even a neutered (heeheehee) KHBD? DG9J is not the end all be all. Give DG9J to Guo Jing or even to Yang Guo and it's useless because it doesn't suit their personalities. Just as Hama Gong wouldn't suit Hong Qi or Yi Deng's personality. But that didn't make Hong Qi or Yi Deng inferior to Ouyang Feng.

In the end, time and time again, it is always shown that a battle between 2 Masters comes down to internal arts. Even had Yang Guo learned the epitome of DGQB's sword theories, it wouldn't have made him anymore powerful than if Guo Jing had learned Hong Qi's Da Gou Bang Fa which I believe Hong Qi said was a better art than XL18Z.

Where did I assume Sword Theories are superior to Internal arts? I think you are incorrectly reading my posts. I said Dugu's Sword Arts/Theories whatever you want to call them is greater than 9 Yin, and that's about it. 9 Yin != Internal Arts. In fact, HIS is pretty much more internal than it is external, so I don't know where you would get that idea from.

Ignoring the fact that DG9J is said by JY to be superior to KHBD, using one a fight between someone who has a year's experience with something compared to someone who has been practicing for 20 or so years is inherently flawed.

Dugu 9 Jian proves exactly that it does not come down to internal. LHC beat tons of people with way better inner strength than him. It was only when the gap where his external arts was only slightly better than their external arts where he lost because his internal was far exceeded by their internal. SPW and even HSDS proves that superior inner strength can only carry you so far, and one needs exquisite techniques and understanding of martial arts in order to truly dominate. The best of both worlds of course would be awesome internal with awesome technique, not one or the other.

[tape]

I dunno. It bothers me that the HIS could have contributed a significant portion of YG's internal energy (and perhaps it bothered JY too since he put in the snake bladders) because it implies that weight training can give you Great-class internal energy, something that contradicts everything in JY's wuxia canon.



There's no doubt about that in my mind. I'm even certain that his peak level was above the level of the ROCH Greats. It's interesting how polarizing he is though. People tend to settle on either "DGQB is a martial arts GOD" or "DGQB is a crazy quack".

With that said, JY sort of failed when he actually tried to define DGQB's skills leading to situations that don't really make much physical sense once you think about it.

I think how inner strength is developed isn't really clear cut so I don't have much trouble believing fighting off waves will give you huge inner power. Just circulating your qi a couple times around your body is supposed to improve it permanently, so I imagine fighting off waves is just extreme circulation of your qi. Perhaps it forces him to quickly get his qi to certain points and back really quick; I don't know but it doesn't seem contradictory or unbelievable.

I think the anti-Dugu's polarize Dugu more than anyone in support of him. I think he is better than the Greats for sure, but there is plenty of evidence to suggest that. It's not enough to completely prove it, but it is a more than legitimate claim that should not get as much flak as it does. I think his claims are much more grounded with fact/speculation than arbitrarily deciding Condor Greats are equal to DGSD Greats, but it's another view that I respect. Anti-Dugu people seem to have lost all respect for other viewpoints and come with the prove it or else attitude.

In regards to skills that make little physical sense, I think JY does that far too often. My favorite example is when FQY tells LHC about connecting his sword stances, which blew his mind and increased his martial arts dramatically. That, to me, is even more unrealistic than all these fantastic arts. How the heck is he supposed to fight without knowing he's allowed to move his arm a little to the left after he finishes his stance in order to start another, or god forbid dodge an attack?

[tape]

In the end it comes down to this. It wasn't the technique that did jack but that YG had an indestructible precious weapon that doesn't heed the laws of physics.

Well to me, it comes down to him being able to draw with GWM using unmastered Wooden Sword. There is still the "mastered wooden sword" level and the whole new no sword level. That's enough for me to place it above the Greats even if we haven't seen it in action -- I just assume it'll be more powerful.

[PJ]

I dunno. It bothers me that the HIS could have contributed a significant portion of YG's internal energy (and perhaps it bothered JY too since he put in the snake bladders) because it implies that weight training can give you Great-class internal energy, something that contradicts everything in JY's wuxia canon.

This argument sounds very reasonable to me. I agree for now!

[ChronoReverse]

Well to me, it comes down to him being able to draw with GWM using unmastered Wooden Sword. There is still the "mastered wooden sword" level and the whole new no sword level. That's enough for me to place it above the Greats even if we haven't seen it in action -- I just assume it'll be more powerful.

The thing is, he wasn't using a wooden sword but was using a metal sword against GWM's wheels. In such a situation, YG's weapon wasn't very much inferior to GWM's and this is reflected by the results of their clash: YG's sword broke while GWM's wheels remained intact. In fact, this result had nothing to do with technique but was all due to internal energy.


The reason I say that it's ultimately weaker is because if YG was actually using a wooden sword, the result would not have been a tie. Presumably (actually, almost certainly) the complete form of the wooden sword removes the need for the HIS, but that still doesn't mean it's stronger. It would clearly be a far higher level of martial arts though and certainly much more versatile.

[tape]

The thing is, he wasn't using a wooden sword but was using a metal sword against GWM's wheels. In such a situation, YG's weapon wasn't very much inferior to GWM's and this is reflected by the results of their clash: YG's sword broke while GWM's wheels remained intact. In fact, this result had nothing to do with technique but was all due to internal energy.


The reason I say that it's ultimately weaker is because if YG was actually using a wooden sword, the result would not have been a tie. Presumably (actually, almost certainly) the complete form of the wooden sword removes the need for the HIS, but that still doesn't mean it's stronger. It would clearly be a far higher level of martial arts though and certainly much more versatile.

I thought that the scene was written to show it was a draw. We can discuss further that GWM's wheels were at the very least higher quality than YG's normal sword, as I remember a line from somewhere in the novel saying his wheels were mixed and made with precious metals. The wheels could handle his channeling of energy better than a sword, which is why it did not break. But it still flew out of his hands. It doesn't really matter whether it's intact or not as the wheels flew away anyway!

And I do agree that perhaps the force generated in the nosword or mastered wooden sword stage might not be much if any stronger, the increased mobility and speed could make him deadly enough to reach a whole new tier of martial arts level. Jade Maiden mobility with HIS level power perhaps ?

[ChronoReverse]

His original wheels were lost remember? This was his second set which, while better than ordinary weapons, is somewhat inferior to the original set.

In any case, I'm also saying that the clash was a draw so that's not the contention point. However, if YG was actually using a wooden sword, the contest would not have ended in a draw!

[PJ]

umm, back to what this is supposed to be about (a guy named WCY)?

[tape]

His original wheels were lost remember? This was his second set which, while better than ordinary weapons, is somewhat inferior to the original set.

In any case, I'm also saying that the clash was a draw so that's not the contention point. However, if YG was actually using a wooden sword, the contest would not have ended in a draw!

Hmm...well this is becoming more of a discussion on YG's level rather than Dugu sword theory level. We know he did not master Wooden Sword, but we don't know far he progressed in the Wooden Sword stage. He could be 20% into it, or he could be 80% into it. I don't think it can be quantified, just that they are on a similar level, and mastering the Wooden Sword would at the least put him on par with GWM/Greats, so the whole new stage should put him squarely above.

[remixedasian]

Ren Woxing is far better than Yang Guo, because DGQB would have been pleased to meet Ren Woxing, but nothing of the sort is said about Yang Guo. It must be that DGQB would have laughed at Yang Guo's pathetic swordsmanship attempts

[PJ]

It must be that DGQB would have laughed at Yang Guo's pathetic swordsmanship attempts

Exactly, since Yang Guo's swordsmanship wasn't high (JY said so).

[Dirt]

I wonder, how was DGQB's palm art or his finger art or his fist art?

Certainly, DGQB wasn't the greatest martial artist in Jin Yong's canon, that's Zhang Sanfeng, Jin Yong said so. Shouldn't we, then, assume that Zhang Sanfang was more powerful than DGQB?

[CC]

You keep repeating that; Athena and some others have mentioned that the 7 days included fighting and martial arts theories. Also, after WCY fought OYF, HYS could'nt challenge WCY because he had just fought. As has been mentioned before, each Great wanted to be sure that they were fighting someone who wasn't already tired, that the only advantage that one Great should have over another in each fight is in their skiills, their talents the the fruits of their hard labour alone. The above sentiments was reflected in the 2nd Hua Shan Tournament as well as Yi Deng's identification of HYS's medicine which indicates that the Greats did rest and heal after the battles. You keep ignoring all that in your WCY bashing.

Firstly, I must declare that I believe that JY wanted WCY to be truely 'Great'. As in still competitive with ROCH YG/GJ (SCREW the wuxia maths).

However, I still do not like the '7 day to convince everyone' fact. I mean, RWX and LHC were 100% convinced of DFBB's utter superiority in just a brief period. MRB and XYS were also 100% convinced of Sweeper Monk's level even before he attacked them. And guys like RWX/MRB/XYS take a lot of convincing when it comes to martial arts.

[Son of Light]

I think it's because no one else except him learned the Pre-Heaven Skill and thus we have no idea how powerful it is.

[ChanceEncounter]

I wonder, how was DGQB's palm art or his finger art or his fist art?

Certainly, DGQB wasn't the greatest martial artist in Jin Yong's canon, that's Zhang Sanfeng, Jin Yong said so. Shouldn't we, then, assume that Zhang Sanfang was more powerful than DGQB?

ZSF > Sweeper Monk?

I think we can assume that ZSF is probably the greatest martial artist in his canon because of the great level arts that he left behind, not that he would necessarily be the best martial artist, and not necessarily that he could beat everyone in a straight up fight.

Furthermore, DGQB was never actually depicted in JY's canon. He was referenced a number of times. But so were figures like Damo, or the people who left behind the Tang Dynasty martial art in XKX. We have no idea how they fit into the chronology.

To the topic at hand, WCY gets underrated in large part because we see his limitations. We know he struggled to beat LCY's skills on his own. We also know that he spent the better part of a week proving that he was stronger than the other four greats, so he couldn't have been far better than them. We also know that the greats improved quite significantly from pre-LOCH time to the end of ROCH, and WCY was dead the majority of his time. It would take some mental gymnastics to explain why WCY would be as strong or stronger than the ROCH greats.

If we were to compare generational transfer of their martial arts, WCY's direct disciples (QZ7) were notably weaker than DGQB's indirect disciples (YG, LHC, FQY). From the quotes from JY, we're likely left with a character with significantly more internal energy than YG and significantly higher technique than LHC, which speaks that he must be pretty high up there. We have almost no upper bound for DGQB whatsoever. Potentially he could be some near mythic figure that hurls boulders at his opponents. We just don't know. We do have a number of clues as to WCY's limitations, and with it, we can see that he is definitely a mortal character. DGQB does not quite present himself so corporeally.

[urbanblue]

In martial arts, WCY is admittedly one of the best at it. However, personality wise, he isn't that great considering that little affair of his. As for the duel at Mt. Hua, at the time that took place, he probably was number 1 in the wulin. But we must take into consideration the fact that he was older and I believe more experienced than the rest. Over the years they may have exceeded him.
Although it has nothing to do with his personal prowess, his disciples were seriously bad. I remember Huang Rong saying something about how without their Big Dipper Formation, they are useless. I am not bashing WCY or anything, but I don't really think he is that much better than HYS and company. I may be wrong though.

[jadebunny9]

I wonder, how was DGQB's palm art or his finger art or his fist art?

Certainly, DGQB wasn't the greatest martial artist in Jin Yong's canon, that's Zhang Sanfeng, Jin Yong said so. Shouldn't we, then, assume that Zhang Sanfang was more powerful than DGQB?

So are we also assuming that ZSF is more powerful than Sweeper Monk and the XY elders as well?

[Dirt]

One thing that was overlooked in this thread about WCY was that he didn't seem to be out to produce the greatest martial arts school. I believe it has been mentioned before that WCY put Taoism ahead of martial learning. And if he really wanted to make the school #1 martial arts school, he could have passed down 9 Yin to the 7 Masters. With 9 Yin, perhaps the best of the 7 Masters could have approached Great level.