Why is Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung so underrated?

[Ken Cheng]

Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung defeated four other Greats (East Heretic Wong Yerk See, West Poison Au Yeung Fung, South Emperor Deun Chi Hing, and North Beggar Hung 7 Gung) in fair and square combat during the First Mt. Hua Sword Tournament to claim the title of World's Greatest Martial Artist. He founded the Cheun Jen Sect, which became the world's most powerful and respected martial arts school for a generation. His seven disciples were respected and powerful fighters in his own right, and his younger martial brother Chow Bak Tung became a Great as well. Topping all this off, Wong Chung Yeung even read and grasped the essence of the 9 Yum Jen Ging.

But at this forum and others, it seems the guy can't buy any respect as a martial artist...despite the best efforts of Athena, Dennis Chen, and others. HOWEVER, a figure such as Dook Goo Kau Bai, who didn't have to do much more than CLAIM being invincible in his time, etc., etc., is given full benefit of the doubt by many people.

Why is that?

[kyss of the sword]

WCY was as good as the greats at the end of ROCH, there is no doubt. he was as good as ZSF. those who doubt just show their lack of knowledge.

[Pacifian]

DGQB had disciples who sort of dominated wulin with only a portion of his skills, they may not be TOTALLY GODLIKE but nevertheless, they could perform feats many couldn't.

WCY on the other hand, had not much evidence pointing to him being very powerful, despite defeating the other Greats in the 1st Hua tournament.

Moreover, DGQB has been portrayed like an immortal. The way he begs for a defeat, etc etc. Yet, for WCY we see him as a human, albeit powerful, but had MANY humane flaws. His mini-story with LCY sort of lowered any over-respectable opinion of him, as we see another side of him. As such, he no longer appears so divine as compared with DGQB.

Another point, we have seen for ourselves DGQB's AMAZING SWORD PHILOSOPHY. How it differes from the norm and made him so powerful and lonely... Yet, all we know of WCY is that he somehow acquired some powerful Pre-heaven Skill. Only JY knows what it really is like. In fact, we know too little about him to form a revered impression of him, as there is a lack of exaggerations regarding his prowess. For DGQB, his GODLY skills are all we know about him.

[The Khan]

I think it's mainly because his disciples sucked monkey's asses

[sheraldine]

[QUOTE=The Khan]I think it's mainly because his disciples sucked monkey's asses[/QUOTE]


Women spit at him throughout his time as leader, i mean his picture. how can we audience respect him like that? i wonder what will happen if the whole pugilist circle got to know the disciples of the ancient tomb practised this ritual....

sheraldine

[Ardor]

I think it's mainly because his disciples sucked monkey's asses

That and he could not counter Lin Chao Yin's techniques on his own.

Though IIRC, he defeated Ouyang Feng in one move during his final days.

[yittz]

Nobody denies WCY has awesome kungfu. The only issue is whether ROCH greats are above or below him.

As a person, he has many known flaws and failures. Whereas people like Z3F, DGQB and sweeper, are hard to pick bones with (well DG maybe with his arrogance and injuring his friend).

[AnhHung]

WCY was human. We see his ups and downs, althoug his novel life was short. DGCB never appeared, but mentioned in several novels. We never see his downs, only been told of his ups. And there are very little info on him, so it is natural that his status is being elevated.

[PJ]

Another point, we have seen for ourselves DGQB's AMAZING SWORD PHILOSOPHY. How it differes from the norm and made him so powerful and lonely... Yet, all we know of WCY is that he somehow acquired some powerful Pre-heaven Skill. Only JY knows what it really is like. In fact, we know too little about him to form a revered impression of him, as there is a lack of exaggerations regarding his prowess. For DGQB, his GODLY skills are all we know about him.

That's exactly right, I believe. We know WAY MORE about Dugu Qiubai's awesome martial arts than Wang Chongyang's. And when we do see Wang Chongyang's martial arts in practice, they look weak because his disciples are weak. So, how can Wang Chongyang's deterioated martial arts for side characters compare to Dugu Qiubai's ferocious martial arts for NOT ONE BUT TWO protagonists?

[owbjhx]

Topping all this off, Wong Chung Yeung even read and grasped the essence of the 9 Yum Jen Ging.

On top of this, the guy forsook romantic love to try and do his best for the defence of his country. Admittedly he sucked at it - defence, I mean - and then sulked about it afterwards, but you'd think this would get him a bit more respect from the forum's Guojingistas.

Apart from Wang Chongyang (like the rest of Quanzhen) being slightly unfashionable here among the long-distance-attack-fetishists, the fact is that Jin Yong (at least in 2e) did not present WCY as a romanticised legend - not in the same way he presented Dugu Qiubai and even, to a lesser extent, the likes of Huang Shang and Lin Chaoying. He's just sort of this mysterious dead guy who people talk about.

The plot arc from 'She Diao' to 'Shen Diao' can even be read as something of a debunking of WCY. From the high point of winning the 1st Mount Hua Duels pre-story, the fate of Quanzhen does not say great things about his teaching prowess nor his ability to build an institution (although it may be a harsh criticism), and the prestige of the Mount Hua Duels concept progressively loses currency at the endings of both novels. Then, of course, there's the whole LCY affair. I think the important issue here is that not only is WCY shown to have underachieved both as lover and leader, but that WCY's decision (ditch passion for the big picture) is fundamentally out of whack with the rest of the novel (which is all about passion superseding everything else, for better or worse). He is contrasted throughout with Yang Guo, who at one point even muses that he's WCY's successor and who arguably achieved both in love & leadership - something achieved by Guo Jing too, but not, conspicuously, by WCY.

These things shouldn't really have an effect on perceptions of WCY's personal martial ability, but they do. If anything, the whole point of him should be "great fighter, but so what?" Meanwhile, if we forget the big silly bird for a moment, JY reserved some fantastic ideas for DGQB's posthumous PR.

[PJ]

Another excellent post by owbjhx. I always enjoy reading your fashionable, rational words.

[Dennis Chen]

Wang Chongyang's influence is way under-rated. Wang Chongyang had 3 Great disciples (4 if you count Yi Deng). Guo Jing, who's inner power foundation is Quanzhen which was a very important stepping stone for him to learn 9 Yin, he also learned considerably more Quanzhen arts from Zhou Botong (who is essentially Guo Jing's master). Kong Ming Quan was invented by Zhou Botong using Wang Chongyang's martial arts philosophy, as was Left/Right hand technique. Virtually all of Zhou Botong's martial arts is Wang Chongyang's martial art which led to the aforementioned Kong Ming Quan and Left/Right hand technique. Yang Guo's sword art foundation is Quanzhen. Ling Chaoying's martial art is built for the express purpose of defeating Quanzhen martial art, in fact, if Yang Guo had not learned Quanzhen martial arts, neither he nor Xiao Longnu would have advanced to the highest levels of Jade Maiden martial arts. Also, Xiao Longnu only really became a contender with the other martial artists after she learned Left/Right Hand technique. Not only was Wang Chongyang's martial arts so integral to so many characters, his actions was very much a prime mover of events in both LOCH and ROCH. He has influence over all the characters. DQKB only had YG. And it's still debatable whether or not the Heavy Iron Sword practitioner can defeat a practitioner of Pre-Heaven Skill. Whether Yang Guo could defeat Guo Jing, Zhou Botong or Yi Deng. And while the 7 disciples certainly aren't Greats, they are martial arts masters in their own right. They are arguably the strongest disciples of all the Greats (with the exception of Guo Jing) and they started their martial arts training at adulthood.

[PJ]

DQKB only had YG.

Actually, I think the SPW Dugu Qiubai is the one that made everyone go "wow, what an insannely powerful cool nut."

And while the 7 disciples certainly aren't Greats, they are martial arts masters in their own right. They are arguably the strongest disciples of all the Greats (with the exception of Guo Jing) and they started their martial arts training at adulthood.

Golden Wheel Monk's first disciple was described to be much better than Daerba. So, this disciple should be better than the peak of the Seven Masters.

[Dennis Chen]

Actually, I think the SPW Dugu Qiubai is the one that made everyone go "wow, what an insannely powerful cool nut."

Fair enough. But do you really think anybody in SPW could defeat any of the Greats even with Dugu Qiubai's martial art?

Golden Wheel Monk's first disciple was described to be much better than Daerba. So, this disciple should be better than the peak of the Seven Masters.

Golden Wheel Imperial Priest was no more a Great than Qiu Qian Ren. It's a technicality as they were both certainly contenders, but it's a true one.

[CDonC]

Golden Wheel Monk was definitely in the class of the greats, although it's never actually said. But, completely in my opinion, I think that he's extremely powerful but at best is only about 1.5x better than an average nameless fighter. He has great internal, but he's a crappy fighter.

That and he could not counter Lin Chao Yin's techniques on his own.

Though IIRC, he defeated Ouyang Feng in one move during his final days.

Didn't Zhou Botong say that if his elder martial brother were still alive that Golden Wheel Monk wouldn't have lasted 10 moves against him? Maybe adaptations messing with me.

[Loke-Gao-Zhu]

because we never TRULY saw him fight, and his disciples...honestly...really suck

[PJ]

Didn't Zhou Botong say that if his elder martial brother were still alive that Golden Wheel Monk wouldn't have lasted 10 moves against him? Maybe adaptations messing with me.

Yes, Zhou Botong did say that. However we think he was in brother-worshipping mode when he said that.

Later, Huang Yaoshi remarked (2nd edition) that Wang Chongyang would have difficulty winning from Little Dragon Girl, and Zhou Botong basically agreed (by not defending Wang when Huang said that).

[Ken Cheng]

The fate of Quanzhen does not say great things about his teaching prowess nor his ability to build an institution (although it may be a harsh criticism).

It's not just harsh; it's practically slanderous. Jin Yong might not have been obliged to deliver complete historical accuracy as he was only writing fiction based on historical events and persons, but his misrepresentation of the Cheun Jen Sect in LOCH and ROCH is almost malicious. Historians are unanimous in praising Yau Chui Gei as an enlightened, benevolent sage...so wise and benevolent that even Genghis Khan himself deeply admired him. Jin Yong, however, depicted Yau Chui Gei as a hotheaded, rash primadonna whose missteps contributed to the assault on the Gwok and Yeung families at Ox Village, and whose incompetence as a teacher led to the emergence of students who became murderous traitors (Yeung Hong) or rapists (Wan Tze Ping in ROCH Ed. 1 and 2). Not as much is known about the other Cheun Jen 7 Disciples, but I doubt that Sheun But Yee was the arrogant, foul-tempered old biddy she was depicted as in LOCH and ROCH, nor was Gok Dai Tung likely to have been the kind of man who would beat an old lady to death (even by accident).

If Jin Yong didn't have some kind of agenda against the Cheun Jen Sect in LOCH and ROCH, then I'm the uncle of that gorilla that Wan Hak Sai put the 9 Yeung Jen Ging in.

[KJ]

Jin Yong, however, depicted Yau Chui Gei as a hotheaded, rash primadonna whose missteps contributed to the assault on the Gwok and Yeung families at Ox Village, and whose incompetence as a teacher led to the emergence of students who became murderous traitors (Yeung Hong) or rapists (Wan Tze Ping in ROCH Ed. 1 and 2).

Wasn't he Wang Chu Yi's student?

[owbjhx]

I always enjoy reading your fashionable, rational words.

Na li, na li. The respect is mutual!

Wang Chongyang's influence is way under-rated...

These are good points. Wang Chongyang is clearly a true patriarch, to which many things can be traced; he definitely deserves further consideration. It's unfortunate that the glimpses given of him in the novels do not make him seem as iconic as Dugu Qiubai etc. - even as a 'tragic' figure.

One thing I admire WCY for is his engagement with the world. The founding of Quanzhen, the military campaigning and the skill-swap with Yideng could count as attempts to render public services. Compared to other Great-level characters across the Trilogy, the only other guy with a greater urge to get involved is Guo Jing.

If Jin Yong didn't have some kind of agenda against the Cheun Jen Sect in LOCH and ROCH, then I'm the uncle of that gorilla that Wan Hak Sai put the 9 Yeung Jen Ging in.

Haha!

Perhaps Jin Yong thought it was his duty as a devout Buddhist to critique the rival faith of Taoism. Or maybe it was just his literary background. One could argue his writing style has more in common with 'Journey to the West' than 'Outlaws of the Marsh' (the traditional proto-wuxia), and oddly enough, 'Journey' does spend rather a lot of time satirising Quanzhen Taoists.