View Poll Results: Yang Guo with Heavy Sword vs Sweeper Monk

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  • Yang Guo with Heavy Sword wins

    11 16.92%
  • Sweeper monk wins

    54 83.08%
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Thread: Yang Guo+Heavy Iron Sword vs Sweeper Monk

  1. #81
    Senior Member chibidaisuke's Avatar
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    The 16 years were mostly peaceful and although Guo Jing has to remain alert but that doesn't mean he would be busy almost all day long without any free time. Besides, most of this 'training soldiers, modifying defences' thing are probably handled by generals assigned to those posts anyway and not by Guo Jing himself. Guo Jing doesn't go around managing everything. And therefore, Guo Jing will have plenty of time to practice and refine his skills as much as any other Greats. And there's this fact that one of his main enemies is a GREAT level fighter, how can he afford to neglect training, it will be foolish and suicidal if he does. Guo Jing does not all of a sudden start thinking 'Hey, I know that one of my biggest enemies Jinlun Guoshi is still alive and he's on par with me, therefore I will train less and let him kick my a$$ next time we meet'. And the reason that he did not significantly surpass the Greats, it is probably not because he hardly practiced, it's just that Jin Yong just wants all the Greats to be around equal regardless of anything else.
    Last edited by chibidaisuke; 12-20-10 at 06:11 AM.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    That might have been dictated by the LOCH/ROCH plot line but I don't quite agree with it being a general rule. Maybe more the result of a geometric difficulty curve rather then an absolute ceiling.

    Excluding Bei Ming cheaters, we still have potentially, people like DGKB, TSTL/LQS, SPT and DFBB who can be argued to be better. And what if XF lived till 60 or had access to other skills?
    Agreed. There is that XF quote where in a period of months, without even actively training, he felt his martial arts had improved a good deal. There is no reason why he would be unable to improve further in the next 50 years of his life if he was able to improve a noticeable amount in a few months when he is already at Great level+. The ceiling simply does not exist since we have seen a handful of characters improve above it.

    If the Greats did not exist (which is only like 5 people in the world), would we arbitrarily state that there's some sort of ceiling at Quanzhen elder level ?
    Last edited by tape; 12-06-10 at 03:49 PM.

  3. #83
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    Agreed. There is that XF quote where in a period of months, without even actively training, he felt his martial arts had improved a good deal. There is no reason why he would be unable to improve further in the next 50 years of his life if he was able to improve a noticeable amount in a few months when he is already at Great level+. The ceiling simply does not exist since we have seen a handful of characters improve above it.

    If the Greats did not exist (which is only like 5 people in the world), would we arbitrarily state that there's some sort of ceiling at Quanzhen elder level ?
    There might not be a "hard cap" ceiling, but it's evident that a significant increase of resistance to further martial arts growth begins beyond the ROCH Great level. Six or seven of the most talented martial arts prodigies ever, some of whom were also equipped with much-coveted special techniques, proved unable to push significantly beyond this resistance despite decades of training. This not being a hard cap, a *very* few individuals were able to ascend to an even higher level, but each of these was a beneficiary of some rather unique and freakish accidents that would be nearly impossible to duplicate.

  4. #84
    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    There might not be a "hard cap" ceiling, but it's evident that a significant increase of resistance to further martial arts growth begins beyond the ROCH Great level. Six or seven of the most talented martial arts prodigies ever, some of whom were also equipped with much-coveted special techniques, proved unable to push significantly beyond this resistance despite decades of training. This not being a hard cap, a *very* few individuals were able to ascend to an even higher level, but each of these was a beneficiary of some rather unique and freakish accidents that would be nearly impossible to duplicate.
    Again, this is because that 'limit' was imposed by the LOCH/ROCH plot line. You shouldn't extend it to ALL of JY's novels, just like I feel you shouldn't extend SPW's brilliant technique owns all' rule to the other novels.

    RWX was supremely talented too, so do you say his level is a cap too?

    I think one shouldn't be locked into the LOCH/ROCH = entire JY world mindset.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

  5. #85
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    Again, this is because that 'limit' was imposed by the LOCH/ROCH plot line. You shouldn't extend it to ALL of JY's novels, just like I feel you shouldn't extend SPW's brilliant technique owns all' rule to the other novels.

    RWX was supremely talented too, so do you say his level is a cap too?

    I think one shouldn't be locked into the LOCH/ROCH = entire JY world mindset.
    All of these stories take place in a single fictional universe (unless they don't, as per the parallel universe theory). As such, the operating rules should be as consistent as possible throughout.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    There might not be a "hard cap" ceiling, but it's evident that a significant increase of resistance to further martial arts growth begins beyond the ROCH Great level. Six or seven of the most talented martial arts prodigies ever, some of whom were also equipped with much-coveted special techniques, proved unable to push significantly beyond this resistance despite decades of training. This not being a hard cap, a *very* few individuals were able to ascend to an even higher level, but each of these was a beneficiary of some rather unique and freakish accidents that would be nearly impossible to duplicate.
    Well perhaps they are not as talented as you think they are then. I think you have a soft spot in your heart for the Greats, whom are no doubt talented, but might not really be as talented as you make them out to be when comparing them to everyone in history. The XF example I gave showed that despite his status of Great+, he was able to improve by normal means at the young age of 30. There is nothing to suggest that he cannot keep on improving, and even a 1% increase every year for the next 50 would place him far above the Greats. For him to realize his improvement, I do think that XF improved much more than 1%, which just means that the cap doesn't really apply.

    People like Dongfong Bubai, Dugu Qiubai, Wuyazi, Li Qiushu, Tianshan Tonglao, Sweeper, Shi Potian, Huang Shang, Ode to Gallantry creator, etc are all likely much better than the Greats, and there are no freak accidents that we know of. They all just had talent and practiced some supreme martial arts (Shi Potian is arguable, but I don't know if practicing in unorthodox but replicable ways can be considered a freak accident)

    There are no inconsistencies in this instance that I see. I find it strange that there are so few people that are like 70-80% of the Greats, it seems you are either 30% as powerful as them, or you are 95% as powerful as them. They are few in betweens.

  7. #87
    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    All of these stories take place in a single fictional universe (unless they don't, as per the parallel universe theory). As such, the operating rules should be as consistent as possible throughout.
    Yes, but why use LOCH/ROCH rules to apply to everyone else? Why not use DGSD or SOD or OTG rules?

    And yeah, Tape said it already.
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  8. #88
    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    But we do know that the Greats are talented. Zhang Sanfeng is said by the author Jin Yong himself to be the Greatest Martial Artist in his Canon. If we are to believe that Zhang Sanfeng is on a par with a Great, then the Greats must also be great.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt View Post
    But we do know that the Greats are talented. Zhang Sanfeng is said by the author Jin Yong himself to be the Greatest Martial Artist in his Canon. If we are to believe that Zhang Sanfeng is on a par with a Great, then the Greats must also be great.
    The implication is not that they are not talented. They are better and more talented than 99.99% of the people, but there is still a group of people more talented or just stronger than them in the realm of martial arts.

    They are Greats relative to their era, not in the absolute sense. If there were a freak accident that transported all wuxia martial artists of all time into the same place, they would no longer be Greats because there are people much better than them. Similarly, if the Xuan Ming elders were transported to the Qing era they would be Greats.

    Having the highest understanding of martial arts does not mean you are the most powerful or the most talented; someone with lower understanding but better execution or inner power or speed will still trounce you. This is shown time and time again through You Tanzhi, Zhang Wuji, even Linghu Chong and Yang Guo -- they all have lower overall martial arts understanding than many of their opponents but made up for it in another area.

    Perhaps the Sweeper Monk scene is just to reinforce the old mountain higher than a mountain saying, showing that all the invincible greats and fighters we've seen still have not scratched the surface of what the pinnacle of martial arts could be.

  10. #90
    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    Having the highest understanding of martial arts does not mean you are the most powerful or the most talented; someone with lower understanding but better execution or inner power or speed will still trounce you. This is shown time and time again through You Tanzhi, Zhang Wuji, even Linghu Chong and Yang Guo -- they all have lower overall martial arts understanding than many of their opponents but made up for it in another area.
    Now this is what I'm talking about in relation to the analysis of Dugu Qiubai and everybody else.

  11. #91
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post

    They are Greats relative to their era, not in the absolute sense. If there were a freak accident that transported all wuxia martial artists of all time into the same place, they would no longer be Greats because there are people much better than them. Similarly, if the Xuan Ming elders were transported to the Qing era they would be Greats.
    Funny...that's what I think about Dook Goo Kau Bai.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt View Post
    Now this is what I'm talking about in relation to the analysis of Dugu Qiubai and everybody else.
    I assume you mean Dugu could theoretically have higher sword understanding but still be weaker? The only problem with that is he created one art that is solely based on superior inner power and raw strength, and another art that is based on superior technique and understanding of martial arts. All of the people above either lacked technique or inner power -- Dugu lacked neither.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Funny...that's what I think about Dook Goo Kau Bai.
    I know. But have we changed your opinion on the martial arts 'ceiling' yet?

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    I know. But have we changed your opinion on the martial arts 'ceiling' yet?
    Not really. I maintain that there's no hard cap ceiling, but that there is a significant increase in the level of resistance to further advancement at around the ROCH Greats level. It *is* possible to transcend that stage and a few people have done it, but it sort of requires a perfect storm of circumstances to make it happen.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Not really. I maintain that there's no hard cap ceiling, but that there is a significant increase in the level of resistance to further advancement at around the ROCH Greats level. It *is* possible to transcend that stage and a few people have done it, but it sort of requires a perfect storm of circumstances to make it happen.
    Perhaps there are breakpoint levels. It seems that it is impossible to be 40-80% of a Great, while being about 30%+ seems to be the cap. The people that pass that cap generally get to Great status eventually, while those that don't stay at their level seemingly forever. There could be another breakpoint at Great level, where if surpassed, leads to the levels of people mentioned above.

  16. #96
    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    I assume you mean Dugu could theoretically have higher sword understanding but still be weaker? The only problem with that is he created one art that is solely based on superior inner power and raw strength, and another art that is based on superior technique and understanding of martial arts. All of the people above either lacked technique or inner power -- Dugu lacked neither.
    Yang Guo did have powerful internal at the end of ROCH. But without the boost by the snake gall bladders, there is reasonable doubt whether or not Yang Guo could have reached that level by the end of the 16 years. One could just as reasonably surmise that anybody else practicing with the HIS without the snake gall bladders may have much, much lower internal than Yang Guo at the end of ROCH. There is also not enough evidence to say that Dugu Qiubai's internal was that high because there is no proof that DGQB ate the snake gall bladders, all we know is that the Condor ate it and then fed it to Yang Guo. The Condor could have very well started eating it after DGQB died. But DGQB always gets the benefit of the doubt and everybody just assumes that since Yang Guo ate it, he must have too.

    Edit: Going back to my favorite topic, Wang Chongyang, as a comparison. People often put down WCY because he needed 9yin to defeat Jade Maiden, people call him a cheater, people think he's really not that Great because he needed something not of his own creation to defeat Lin Chaoying. This is proof that WCY must not have been very good or powerful.

    Conversely, when it comes to Dugu Qiubai and we assume that he did have access to the snake gall bladders to improve his internal energy, there is never proclamations of cheating, of using an external source that DGQB did not create to improve his martial arts. Quite the contrary, instead I am often met with the proclamation that since DGQB had access to the snake gall bladders, he must have been much, much, much more powerful than the Greats including Yang Guo. This is proof that DGQB must have been very good and powerful.
    Last edited by Dirt; 12-07-10 at 03:07 PM.

  17. #97
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    Perhaps there are breakpoint levels. It seems that it is impossible to be 40-80% of a Great, while being about 30%+ seems to be the cap. The people that pass that cap generally get to Great status eventually, while those that don't stay at their level seemingly forever. There could be another breakpoint at Great level, where if surpassed, leads to the levels of people mentioned above.
    That, I can agree with.

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  18. #98
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    The thing is, Heavy Iron Sword technique doesn't work without high powered internal energy. All the sword theory about simplicity is worthless when you can't push the sword fast enough to land a blow. This alone implies that DGQB must have at least the internal energy level of pre-16 years YG.

  19. #99
    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
    The thing is, Heavy Iron Sword technique doesn't work without high powered internal energy. All the sword theory about simplicity is worthless when you can't push the sword fast enough to land a blow. This alone implies that DGQB must have at least the internal energy level of pre-16 years YG.
    I think we can all agree that Yang Guo's internal was not at the same level as the Greats yet pre-16 years. There is no evidence that DGQB had internal greater than that.
    Last edited by Dirt; 12-07-10 at 03:18 PM.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt View Post
    I think we can all agree that Yang Guo's internal was not at the same level as the Greats yet pre-16 years. There is no evidence that DGQB had internal greater than that.
    The way to master Wooden Sword was to increase your inner strength. Yang Guo could not increase it enough even when he caught up to the Greats while Dugu did and even moved beyond it. With or without snake gall bladders, Dugu reached a higher endpoint than Yang Guo and the Greats by association.

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