PJ's unofficial ranking of the Jin Yong universe

[Yeung Gor]

PJ, don't ignore my other comment now. How could you use "trance mode" for SPT to raise his ranking, but lower YG ranking by using "unsad mode". That is unfair. These ranking should be base on everyone's prime mode.

[ChronoReverse]

I don't think so.... Zhang Junbao and He Zudao's internal energy seemed to be roughly equal.

It's possible that the were close, but considering this:

This time there was no sound when fist and palm met. Both were generating internal energy. When it comes to all-round martial arts, He ZuDao would win with ease over Zhang JunBao. But when it comes to internal energy, Zhang learnt some parts of the "Jiu Yang" codex so his internal strength kept increasing and increasing. He ZuDao knew he couldn't defeat this young boy and leapt away and let Zhang JunBao's energy dash forward and used his right hand to push gently on Zhang's back causing him to fall over.

that is, most importantly, ZJB's power seemed to be increasing and increasing, it seems more than HZD couldn't match him in terms of power.

[K2Grey]

IMHO 217% is the correct place to put the sad mode YG (like when he fought ZBT, HYS et al).

My impression is that ZJB had more inner power than HZD, which is why HZD backed off instead of continuing the inner power armwrestling contest.

[PJ]

PJ, don't ignore my other comment now. How could you use "trance mode" for SPT to raise his ranking, but lower YG ranking by using "unsad mode". That is unfair. These ranking should be base on everyone's prime mode.

Originally, I ranked Yang Guo in 2 modes: 1 for sad mode, and 1 for unsad mode. In the end, I took out the sad mode because it is too controversial, and I myself could not decide where it should rank.

I did not rank Shi Potian's non-trance mode because I also do not know where it should rank.

I only ranked the individuals that I felt comfortable with.

[Yeung Gor]

Originally, I ranked Yang Guo in 2 modes: 1 for sad mode, and 1 for unsad mode. In the end, I took out the sad mode because it is too controversial, and I myself could not decide where it should rank.

I did not rank Shi Potian's non-trance mode because I also do not know where it should rank.

I only ranked the individuals that I felt comfortable with.

I think when considering ranking fighting ability, it is appropriate to take their prime mode, which in YG case, sad mode. It would be unfair to YG to be downgraded and everyone is pretty much at their best.

Out of curiousity, where did you have YG (sad mode) at and what percentage did he received?

[PJ]

This time there was no sound when fist and palm met. Both were generating internal energy. When it comes to all-round martial arts, He ZuDao would win with ease over Zhang JunBao. But when it comes to internal energy, Zhang learnt some parts of the "Jiu Yang" codex so his internal strength kept increasing and increasing. He ZuDao knew he couldn't defeat this young boy and leapt away and let Zhang JunBao's energy dash forward and used his right hand to push gently on Zhang's back causing him to fall over.

I'm not sure whether the underlined translation is correct. The Chinese text is 内力绵绵密密，浑厚充溢. It definitely says that his internal energy was abundant, but I'm not sure if it says it kept increasing. Perhaps someone who is well-versed in Chinese can confirm?

seems more than HZD couldn't match him in terms of power.

Not that He couldn't match the 16 yo in power, just that He didn't have the confidence to overcome the 16 yo.

[PJ]

I think when considering ranking fighting ability, it is appropriate to take their prime mode, which in YG case, sad mode. It would be unfair to YG to be downgraded and everyone is pretty much at their best.

I do not feel it to be unfair because I specifically say that I did not rank Yang Guo at his prime. So one can assume that Yang Guo at his prime would rank higher in the chart. I just don't know where exactly it would be placed.

[PJ]

Good effort, but I honestly think that the power / prowess between the ROCH 4 greats is very minute. Sure, H7G and AYF died 16 or so years earlier, but it wouldn't make too much of a difference between these two and HYS and YD. The latter two wouldn't have improved in techniques and only inner power to improve on. They were already old at the start of ROCH and by the end, I doubt their inner power risen to make a huge difference between them and AYF / H7G. I think a 30% gap is too much between them. I do like ZBT as a couple of % points higher than the other two greats though.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. The primary reason for ranking the remaining Greats at the end of ROCH significantly higher than the deceased ones, is due to the significant power increases described of Yang Guo and the Golden Wheel Monk. They both improved tremendously, and the remaining Greats were still on par, suggesting that the old Greats have also improved quite a bit.

[PJ]

true, MRF is nowhere near XF but ur saying that 4 MRF cant par with XF?

There are plenty of facts that suggest Xiao Feng = 4 or 5 Murong Fu's. Just to name a few:

-Murong Fu plus the combined forces of his 4 assistants (each of which is not bad in kung fu) are on par with Duan Yanqing. Xiao Feng is generally thought to be equal to 3 Duan Yanqing's (due to a famous line in 3rd edition), and also considering that Jiumozhi =~ 5 Duan monks under some special circumstances

-Murong Fu was said to be only slightly above Boss Wu of the 36 Caves, 72 Islands organizations... who was not a match for You Tanzhi and would be killed by Tianshan Tonglao in ONE STANCE.

-Murong Fu was hinted by the Sweeper Monk to not be good enough to master any of the 72 Supreme Arts of Shaolin. And also Wang Yuyan confessed to Duan Yu that Murong Fu could not master the supreme art that Reverend Xuanbei (who was killed by Murong Bo) had mastered yet. Most Xuan generation monks had mastered several supreme arts, so Murong Fu < Xuan generation monks. Each Xuan generation monk is again about 1/3 of Xiao Feng's level, according to the 3rd edition.

-Murong Fu was defeated by Jiumozhi within several stances

-In front of the Sweeper Monk, Xiao Feng wanted to take out Murong Fu in 5 stances or less

[PJ]

1. JLFW and ZWJ are rated the same. Yes, yes, ZWJ's internal is unpure, unrefined, still needs work. So even though his internal is = to that of YG or GJ, he is still rated lower. However, I believe we did have a poll to see if ZWJ or JLFW would win and I believed that poll was pretty lop sided toward ZWJ. Like it was over 75% favoring ZWJ. That does not hint to me that ZWJ is only on par with JLFW.

Jinlun Guoshi and Zhang Wuji should have similar abundance in internal energy. Jinlun > Yang Guo slightly in that area (Zhou Botong noted that Jinlun's hits were more powerful than Yang Guo's), and Zhang Wuji >= Yang Guo in that area. Both Jinlun and Zhang Wuji are crap fighters, so both get approximately the same ranking.

2. I personally feel that XF's rating is once again covered with his hero biased. As noted by BaiQi44, according to you there is a 30% difference for for the Old Original Greats. H7G/OYF 170% and Yideng/HYS are 205%. And I remember you always agree with me that there is a consideralbe improvement. However, when you rated XF, you gave him 255% and the best of the Greats 235% (GJ) and 225% (Z3F). Wouldn't that suggest that the difference between XF and the Elite Greats have a difference of Pre 16 Years ROCH to Post 16 Years ROCH? In opinion, no, that difference is too big. So I suggest toning down the DGSD 4 Elite. I'm not saying you have to place them neck to neck with the Elite Greats, but the difference you gave was a bit glaring and should have been toned down to like 0-5% difference.

For example, Huang Yaoshi is ranked approximately 80% of Xiao Feng. I personally believe that is reasonable. I would also like to claim that my ranking is free from hero worshipping, personal bias, or whatever. At least, I am working towards that end.

Perhaps the DGSD Elites are ranked too high... I have to think about that.

3. Yideng and JMZ. As we all know, a part used to prove DGSD Elites~Greats used was Yideng and JMZ's speaking. However, when I look at the rating, there is about a 50% difference. Honestly, don't you think that the % is a bit too wide to have Yideng and JMZ showing relative internal powers(even if JMZ is agreed to be slightly higher)?

Yideng is also ranked about 80% of Jiumozhi's power. For a guy who might not even be able to write on wood, versus a guy who can slice out a piece of bronze in the perfect shape of a palm, I believe the ranking is fair.

[Wu Wudi]

I did not rank Shi Potian's non-trance mode because I also do not know where it should rank.

Unlike YG's case, which is controversial as you have said, there is not much evidence to suggest that SPT is any less powerful when he is not in a trance. The only apparent difference was that SPT wasn't fully aware of his sparring when he was in a trance. Even when fully alert, SPT was in full mastery of his powers as shown when he made that infamous jump across the oceans of the world. There was no mention by JY that SPT was any less powerful when he was not in a trance. In fact, SPT was shown to be in full control of his martial arts in every instance after he left the island.

[Dennis Chen]

Why is Yideng ranked lower than Huang Yaoshi? What in the books made you come to this conclusion?

How can Huang Shang be rated so much lower than Dugu Qiubai? 9 Ying Zhen Jin is at least the equal of any Dugu Qiubai martial art.

[PJ]

There are a lot details on which I disargee with PJ, such as:
- Dongfang Bubai is inferior to Xiao Feng, Jiumozhi, Murong Bo, Xiao Yuanshan.

For some reason, I can't even see a Great losing to Dongfang. But it is difficult to prove.

- Huang Rong is superior to Lin Pingzhi.

I probably should have left out Lin Pingzhi in the ranking, since my knowledge on the guy is limited... but I do not think he has reached Zuo Lengchan or Yue Buqun's level yet, has he?

[PJ]

Unlike YG's case, which is controversial as you have said, there is not much evidence to suggest that SPT is any less powerful when he is not in a trance. The only apparent difference was that SPT wasn't fully aware of his sparring when he was in a trance. Even when fully alert, SPT was in full mastery of his powers as shown when he made that infamous jump across the oceans of the world. There was no mention by JY that SPT was any less powerful when he was not in a trance. In fact, SPT was shown to be in full control of his martial arts in every instance after he left the island.

But we have seen in earlier instances from the novel which show that under normal circumstances, Shi Potian is very weak even with his tremendous internal energy. He had trouble defeating people who had probably 5% of his internal foundation. And he NEVER learned martial arts properly from an expert. He only looked at the text and drawings from Ode to Gallantry, but no one has ever given him pointers on how to use the kung fu. This would be like Xuzhu when he first received the internal energy of Wuyazi. At least later, Xuzhu received pointers from Tonglao and that's when his level started improving. I feel that Shi Potian in his non-trance mode, post-Ode to Gallantry, could very well be similar to his lack of competency earlier in the novel.

[PJ]

Why is Yideng ranked lower than Huang Yaoshi? What in the books made you come to this conclusion?

Yideng showed that he < Jinlun Guoshi.

Yideng thought that he < Yang Guo.

Huang Yaoshi was thought by Jinlun Guoshi to be "very powerful."

Huang Yaoshi also briefly matched power with Yang Guo.

The perception is that Huang Yaoshi should be slightly above Yideng.

And, Huang Yaoshi knows more skills, which when all else are equal, can be considered an advantage.

How can Huang Shang be rated so much lower than Dugu Qiubai? 9 Ying Zhen Jin is at least the equal of any Dugu Qiubai martial art.

Not necessarily. Dugu Qiubai's formless sword theories are more advanced tha 9 Yin. And you forget that none of Dugu Qiubai's successors reached the highest level of Dugu Qiubai's sword theories.

[PJ]

Is DY missed out on purpose?

More or less. Duan Yu is a special case whose performance is unstable all the time. During his fight with Murong Fu, Jin Yong commented that during a "normal" competition of martial arts, Duan Yu would be killed by Murong Fu before the second stance. This tells you what Jin Yong thinks of Duan Yu's abilities. Even considering that he doubled his power by the end of the novel, Jin Yong still maintained that Duan Yu could not use his powerful as his heart desires. Therefore, I simply leave this "non martial artist" out of the rankings.

[Ken Cheng]

Dugu Qiubai's formless sword theories are more advanced tha 9 Yin.

I don't believe that's necessarily true.

[PJ]

I don't believe that's necessarily true.

Formless sword theory = Overcoming a sword without a sword
9 Yin = Overcoming stances with other stances

I'd say Dugu Qiubai's theories are more advanced. And besides, this guy reached that stage in his 40s, whereas Huang Yaoshi was probably in his 70s or 80s when he came up with 9 Yin (having spent 40+ years developing it). This means that Dugu Qiubai would have had more time to improve his proficiency, or at least gather up internal energy.

[Dennis Chen]

And, Huang Yaoshi knows more skills, which when all else are equal, can be considered an advantage.

It can also be a major disadvantage, which is why Yang Guo spend many years just learning the Heavy Iron Sword and forsook his other arts.

Also, Yideng's martial arts is not < JLGS, Yideng's constitution was worse because of his age. Huang Yaoshi never proved that he could last longer against JLGS than Yideng. YD thought that he did not have YG's internal when he was of that age, there's nothing that says that YD would fare worse than HYS in a fight against YG. You're making many unfounded assumptions.

[Wu Wudi]

But we have seen in earlier instances from the novel which show that under normal circumstances, Shi Potian is very weak even with his tremendous internal energy. He had trouble defeating people who had probably 5% of his internal foundation. And he NEVER learned martial arts properly from an expert. He only looked at the text and drawings from Ode to Gallantry, but no one has ever given him pointers on how to use the kung fu. This would be like Xuzhu when he first received the internal energy of Wuyazi. At least later, Xuzhu received pointers from Tonglao and that's when his level started improving. I feel that Shi Potian in his non-trance mode, post-Ode to Gallantry, could very well be similar to his lack of competency earlier in the novel.

But SPT was clearly shown to be in control of his powers at the end of the novel. Also, he did receive instructions here and there from XYK, his master/grandmother-in-law, and his parents. SPT's parents were limited by their internal powers but they were talented martial artists and seemed to have imparted many important fundamentals to him. When Spt fought the younger Ding brother, he dominated the fight easily. In Spt's final fight before leaving the island in which he defeated his father-in-law, SPT showed a much better knowledge of dueling and had much better control of his martial arts.

Although you made a good point about how SPT did not receive instructions on how to use Ode to Gallantry, keep in mind that personal guidance isn't always necessary if the tehniques s are written clearly enough and if the practitioner is talented enough. GJ mastered much of 9YJin from his own contemplation, ZWJ mastered much of 9yang and all of QKDNY by himself, LHC mastered the martial arts in the cave wall, etc. SPT was supposed to be immensely talented so I think he should get the benefit of the doubt when we are considering whether he really mastered the Ode to Gallantry martial arts.

Ultimately, your rankings are up to you though and you shouldn't adjust your list unless you are really convinced that there should be a change. Otherwise, it would not be PJ's list anymore. I'm just bringing up this point because I see many people pressuring you strongly to make changes.