PJ's unofficial ranking of the Jin Yong universe

[PJ]

It can also be a major disadvantage, which is why Yang Guo spend many years just learning the Heavy Iron Sword and forsook his other arts.

That's because Yang Guo learned INCOMPATIBLE skill sets from different schools. Huang Yaoshi's Peach Blossom martial arts should be of the same nature, so it doesn't affect him.

[Dennis Chen]

Formless sword theory = Overcoming a sword without a sword
9 Yin = Overcoming stances with other stances.

By your single statement, if Sweeper Monk was using a sword, Dugu Qiubai would be able to overcome him.

Also, Taichi Sword theory is on a par with Dugu Qiubai's sword theories, but Zhang Sanfeng isn't necessarily better than Guo Jing. It'd still be debatable who would win that fight.

Everyone thinks Dugu Qiubai's kung fu is the be all end all, but it's only sword theories. There's no internal.

[Dennis Chen]

That's because Yang Guo learned INCOMPATIBLE skill sets from different schools. Huang Yaoshi's Peach Blossom martial arts should be of the same nature, so it doesn't affect him.

So, what you're saying is that between Xu Zhu and Duan Yu - even if they had the same level of internal strength - Xu Zhu should always be just above Duan Yu because he knows many skills whereas Duan Yu only knows 6MSJ?

What about Xiao Feng? Should he be below Xiao Yuanshan and Murong Fu? Xiao Feng only knew a few different types of kung fu, XYS and MRF knew at least a dozen each after all the decades of stealing kung fu - all Shaolin (the same school with the same theories).

[PJ]

But SPT was clearly shown to be in control of his powers at the end of the novel.

I don't think he showed any mastery that would suggest otherworldly capabilities after his unconscious sparring. But perhaps you can name a few?

Also, he did receive instructions here and there from XYK, his master/grandmother-in-law, and his parents.

Not the same caliber of experts that other characters received (You Tanzhi -> Ding Chunqiu, Xuzhu -> Tianshan Tonglao)

In Spt's final fight before leaving the island in which he defeated his father-in-law, SPT showed a much better knowledge of dueling and had much better control of his martial arts.

You mean when Shi Potian defeated Bai Wanjian? I do not recall the specs of that fight. I always become disinterested of reading Shi Potian having 20 times more internal energy and yet having trouble dealing with low level fighters, BUT perhaps now is a good time to go back to reread that part.

But defeating Bai Wanjian is hardly an honor for Shi Potian. I bet even low-level fighters like Feng Bo'e can probably do that, and we are debating whether Shi Potian is at Xuzhu's level or not.

Although you made a good point about how SPT did not receive instructions on how to use Ode to Gallantry, keep in mind that personal guidance isn't always necessary if the tehniques s are written clearly enough and if the practitioner is talented enough. GJ mastered much of 9YJin from his own contemplation, ZWJ mastered much of 9yang and all of QKDNY by himself, LHC mastered the martial arts in the cave wall, etc. SPT was supposed to be immensely talented so I think he should get the benefit of the doubt when we are considering whether he really mastered the Ode to Gallantry martial arts.

True --> pointers from martial arts sages are not always necessary for talented comprehenders... and yet if Shi Potian can comprehend new arts easily then why did he not comprehend how to use his previous abilities fully, when he had so much internal energy inside him? Because of his previous lack of experience, I am not sure if he could suddenly gain all the insights necessary to leverage the power Ode to Gallantry art.

Ultimately, your rankings are up to you though and you shouldn't adjust your list unless you are really convinced that there should be a change. Otherwise, it would not be PJ's list anymore. I'm just bringing up this point because I see many people pressuring you strongly to make changes.

Thanks, I feel the same way. The purpose of presenting this ranking is not simply to impose my ego on other readers, but really what I want to do is to have serious, evidence-based discussions and perhaps learn a few things along the way.

[PJ]

Also, Yideng's martial arts is not < JLGS, Yideng's constitution was worse because of his age.

Not just because of age. Yideng was supposed to have refined his martial arts over the 16 years. And yet, the novel stated that the power released by Jinlun Guoshi greatly exceeded Yideng's power. Only because Jinlun Guoshi was extremely distracted could Yideng fight evenly with him.

Huang Yaoshi never proved that he could last longer against JLGS than Yideng. YD thought that he did not have YG's internal when he was of that age, there's nothing that says that YD would fare worse than HYS in a fight against YG. You're making many unfounded assumptions.

Come on, Huang Yaoshi is only ranked about 1% higher than Yideng. The tiny gap might not make any difference in combat. I am just compensating for Huang Yaoshi's greater knowledge in a wider range of arts, and remember it is just 1%. I AM NOT SAYING THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HUANG YAOSHI AND YIDENG.

[PJ]

By your single statement, if Sweeper Monk was using a sword, Dugu Qiubai would be able to overcome him.

Please be reasonable here. I said that Dugu Qiubai's THEORIES are more advanced. That's all.

Also, Taichi Sword theory is on a par with Dugu Qiubai's sword theories, but Zhang Sanfeng isn't necessarily better than Guo Jing. It'd still be debatable who would win that fight.

Everyone thinks Dugu Qiubai's kung fu is the be all end all, but it's only sword theories. There's no internal.

Come on, the internal aspect of Dugu Qiubai's progress was focused in the Heavy Iron Sword... that was about 2 stages below his ultimate art. Jin Yong clearly stated in DGSD that "to wield a light weapon as if it carried the weight of a heavy weapon is more impressive than the other way around." This means that Dugu Qiubai has transcended the internal boundaries a long time ago.

[Ken Cheng]

Formless sword theory = Overcoming a sword without a sword
9 Yin = Overcoming stances with other stances

That just makes the Dook Goo Kau Bai sword theories more esoteric, not necessarily more advanced.

When you come right down to it, the DGKB sword theories are basically a better way to stab/cut people with a sword and that's pretty much all they functionally are.

The 9 Yum Jen Ging supplies a better way to stab/cut people with a sword (or hit them with a palm, etc.), builds inner power if the user doesn't have enough, heals internal injuries (including ones considered otherwise incurable), increases the user's resistance to injury, enables the user to overcome acupressure point sealing, strengthens the user's senses against techniques that disrupt the senses, etc. Seems to me like the 9 Yum Jen Ging offers much more bang per buck than DGKB's sword theories.

I'd say Dugu Qiubai's theories are more advanced. And besides, this guy reached that stage in his 40s, whereas Huang Yaoshi was probably in his 70s or 80s when he came up with 9 Yin (having spent 40+ years developing it). This means that Dugu Qiubai would have had more time to improve his proficiency, or at least gather up internal energy.

Don't forget that Wong Seung didn't even get *started* until his forties, however, whereas Dook Goo Kau Bai started as a much younger man. Moreover, the record on Dook Goo Kau Bai falls silent after he reaches the "No Sword" stage...probably in his forties? This might mean that his life and advancement ended shortly thereafter.

[PJ]

So, what you're saying is that between Xu Zhu and Duan Yu - even if they had the same level of internal strength - Xu Zhu should always be just above Duan Yu because he knows many skills whereas Duan Yu only knows 6MSJ?

No, because 6MSJ != Xiaoyao Pai martial arts. But if you can prove that 6MSJ = one of Xuzhu's arts, then Xuzhu would have the advantage. It makes a lot of sense to me.

What about Xiao Feng? Should he be below Xiao Yuanshan and Murong Fu? Xiao Feng only knew a few different types of kung fu, XYS and MRF knew at least a dozen each after all the decades of stealing kung fu - all Shaolin (the same school with the same theories).

Do you mean Murong Bo not Murong Fu...? Anyway, there is not much evidence to suggest that Xiao Yuanshan and Murong Bo knew more skills than Xiao Feng. Xiao Feng also learned Shaolin martial arts, plus he had the Beggar's Union stuff, plus Dragon-Capturing Hand, which who knows where he learned that from...

[K2Grey]

Let's remember that DGQB approached the state of overcoming a sword without a sword. It never explicitly says that DGQB was able to move beyond killing people by throwing rocks and sticks at them.

[Wu Wudi]

The 9 Yum Jen Ging supplies a better way to stab/cut people with a sword (or hit them with a palm, etc.), builds inner power if the user doesn't have enough, heals internal injuries (including ones considered otherwise incurable), increases the user's resistance to injury, enables one to overcome pressure point sealing, strengthen one's senses against techniques that disrupt the senses, etc. Seems to me like the 9 Yum Jen Ging offers much more bang per buck than DGKB's sword theories.

I've never gotten the feeling either that DGKB's martial arts were more powerful than 9yin. It seemed to me that JY meant for 9YIN to be the ultimate pinnacle of all martial arts for the Condor Trilogy. I feel that 9yang's internal power is superior to 9yin's but it was never said explicitly by JY.

[K2Grey]

I remember hearing explicit words to the effect that 9 Yang had deeper inner power whereas 9 Yin had marvelous techniques.

[soulmelody]

PJ, i thought z3f is at LEAST on par with XF,if not better,and why is GJ ranked lower then XF<they came from DIFFERENT time zone, also GJ has XL18Z and 9 yin, XF only has XL28Z, so GJ should actually be on par,if not better then XF.

[CC]

*sound of CC munching on his popcorn*

[dgfds01]

PJ: I don't care what you say. Xiao Feng is Zui Li Hai! How could you rank 6 people (excluding Sweeps) above him and Jiu Mo Zhi his equal? He'll tear them up!

Seriously, I'm nitpicking here but the maximum percentage is 100%. How about removing the % sign and ranking them on a scale with 1000 point as the maximum. That'll be mathematically accurate without you having to adjust the figures.

CC: Care to share your popcorn? This should get interesting.

[Dennis Chen]

What does it mean, exactly, to be able to overcome a sword without a sword? Why is that so great? Especially if you can LDA? Can being able to defeat a sword without a sword defeat Yideng's chi blasts?

[strife_au]

I think DGQB's ranking is good.


:]

[K2Grey]

GJ already overcame the sword without a sword. He has great sword technique (9 Yin Zhen Jing) but he is better when fighting with XL18Z. So he overcame the sword using palm.

[kidd]

You mean when Shi Potian defeated Bai Wanjian? I do not recall the specs of that fight. I always become disinterested of reading Shi Potian having 20 times more internal energy and yet having trouble dealing with low level fighters, BUT perhaps now is a good time to go back to reread that part.

But defeating Bai Wanjian is hardly an honor for Shi Potian. I bet even low-level fighters like Feng Bo'e can probably do that, and we are debating whether Shi Potian is at Xuzhu's level or not.

True --> pointers from martial arts sages are not always necessary for talented comprehenders... and yet if Shi Potian can comprehend new arts easily then why did he not comprehend how to use his previous abilities fully, when he had so much internal energy inside him? Because of his previous lack of experience, I am not sure if he could suddenly gain all the insights necessary to leverage the power Ode to Gallantry art.

Actually, SPT's understanding of martial arts improved a lot after pointers from his parents. During the period when SPT and his parents were traveling to Ling Xiu Cheng, his parents gave him pointers everyday. SPT's fighting skill sux before. But after this rather long period of teachings by the Shi couple, SPT was clearly more stable in his later fights. No sudden burst of energy or lousy swordplay anymore. I remember reading one part of the book where the author explain that SPT used to just follow step by step the swordplay, but after pointers from his parents, he understand the basic and can decide himself which stance better to counter which stance (not exact quote, just the meaning). The way he threw the planks, his precision when landing on it and his precision when throwing Shi Xiao Cui (his sifu) back on the far away boat show that he can control his energy very well.

[strife_au]

why is DGQB ranked so low? u have no idea of completely how strong he is?

How can you have an idea of completely how weak he is? He was a plot device to somehow boost YG in a very short period of time.
Also to boost LHC's aswell. All plot Devices

:]

[Whsie]

Though you mentioned that ZWJ is a crappy fighter, but you're only looking at the general scernario. If we are to rate ZWJ at peak level, we have to take his fight against the 3 Du Generation the 3rd time and at Wudang when ZWJ showed some of his "brutalness and aggressiveness". I believe those times ZWJ really did push himself to the upper limits. So I still feel ZWJ is somewhat >JLFW (futhermore, don't forget that lopsided poll).

I still have a pretty hard time imagining that Yideng as "80%" of JMZ and perform the same feat better (look at the distances). 90% maybe...., but 80% is a bit far. And btw, the Yideng that Qiu Chu Ji talked about was when?? He said that no carving wood comment at Pre 22 Years. And even at Pre 22 Years ROCH, QCJ hasn't seen Yideng is a quite a while. That leaves 25+ years of practice for Yideng between Yideng reaching his peak and QCJ last saw Yideng. Honestly I feel 25 years is enough to carve more than wood.

And similiarly Z3F being a difference of Pre 16 Years ROCH to Post 16 Years ROCH improvement difference with XF....? That is still a bit hard to swallow.

Again, those 2 problems are both mainly because I feel that you rated the DGSD Elite 4 too high.

As for your YG Depression Mode problem.... If you put YG = GJ, then I'm sure that the problem should be somewhat solved. That way, it is fair to both sides.