View Poll Results: Which was better?

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  • Dugu Qiubai

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  • Zhang Sanfeng

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Thread: Dugu Qiubai vs Zhang Sanfeng: Martial Theory

  1. #21
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    When did we outlaw interpretation of the author's statements?
    No, but I don't think anybody is obliged to accept interpretations that seem arbitrary and not even suggested by the author's original remarks.

  2. #22
    Senior Member batmankiller's Avatar
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    Well when you think about it, I mean from martial art experts believed that the best sword stances, are none at all and instead, use your own mind to interpret and execute the stances however you liked. Both martial arts experts pretty much created and perfected the respective signature martial arts by themselves, although it's not really stated that DGQB had no master, and Z3F did have his master, gu Yuen Taici until the ages of 20 to 30(not sure correct me if i'm wrong)And although it is true to some extent that Z3F's taichi sword theory involves being able to beat someone even if they have more internal/faster..etc... and DGQB doesn't necessary state that. Yes, to some extent I can agree that Z3F has mor philospy... but hey we can't dis-credit that DGQB has created nine sword "levels/stances" that can help overcome anyone.. regardless.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    When did we outlaw interpretation of the author's statements? I must have missed that. The author doesn't have to spoonfeed his audience all the time. We can/should exercise our brain, you know.

    I seem to recall a certain excerpt when the author said "there is no doubt that this man has reached the peak of perfection in swordplay," he didn't need to add "in the eye of the beholder." Does Jin Yong really have to spell out everything for his readers?
    What the narrator says in the context of the book and the situation may be interpreted freely because it is being said in the book during a specific situation. What Jin Yong says in an interview doesn't really have any situation to interpret it with.

    Anything can mean anything if we place qualifying statements onto the end. I would caution against this as so to avoid things like rewriting the Ten Commandments to read "Thou shall not steal... unless you really want it" or other "interpretations".

  4. #24
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    Ken, not that I like to argue, but I beg to differ.

    You would have to look at what "great" really entails. You could say that Napoleon Hill is the "greatest" business philosopher, seeing that "Think and Grow Rich" has become the backbone of many business people nowadays. But in terms of pure achievement in the business sense, he is not the greatest achiever. In terms of philosophy, I find it fair to say that what the recent achievers have come up with might surpass his.

    What I am trying to say is how JY is judging "great". It could be referring to the legacy the man created. In terms of impact on the community at large, ZSF can be said to be the greatest ever. So many years after his death, his theories lived on, creating one of the most magical legacies in the world. But that does not make him the best theorist or best fighter.

    You could argue about the talents of each, but in my opinion, that argument gets nowhere. We could easily claimed that Taiji does not suit most people, thus their potential was limited by Taiji. I do not claim that, it's just an example. But going into pure theoretics, especially on talent and potential, usually happens to be a fruitless debate in my opinion. Judging by the results each got should give a fairer and more critical analysis for all.

  5. #25
    Senior Member batmankiller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    When did we outlaw interpretation of the author's statements? I must have missed that. The author doesn't have to spoonfeed his audience all the time. We can/should exercise our brain, you know.

    I seem to recall a certain excerpt when the author said "there is no doubt that this man has reached the peak of perfection in swordplay," he didn't need to add "in the eye of the beholder." Does Jin Yong really have to spell out everything for his readers?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    No, but I don't think anybody is obliged to accept interpretations that seem arbitrary and not even suggested by the author's original remarks.
    Interpretations that "seem arbitrary and not even suggested by the author's original remarks" are different from not using clear logic and anything that isn't clearly stated by the author is not a fact and just a false interpretation. I mean PJ has a point, greatest martial artist of all time, clearly being 110 would affect your performance as, ZWJ, Z3F himself and his disciples have stated many times that his age is affecting his performance and stuff. (un-directly, but if you use your brain it'll suggest that)

  6. #26
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K2Grey
    What the narrator says in the context of the book and the situation may be interpreted freely because it is being said in the book during a specific situation. What Jin Yong says in an interview doesn't really have any situation to interpret it with.
    I am confused by what you mean. When Jin Yong is being interviewed in real-time, he doesn't necessarily have sufficient time to think through the question carefully. He also doesn't tend to go into too much detail in his responses, usually only giving a rather vague answer. For example when he was asked about the most beautiful girl, he said that Princess Fragrance is #1, while Xiao Longnu is also very high. What does this say about Xiao Longnu's beauty? Almost nothing. Like we didn't know prior to that interview that she was beautiful. Jin Yong never said how Xiao Longnu fares compared to other beauties in his universe, but some people have interpreted this lack of information as Xiao Longnu = #2.

    Of course Jin Yong's statements from interviews have room for interpretation. He's giving his thoughts about his works, the works that bring us together on this forum right now. Everything he says about wuxia is related to his works, so of course they can/should be interpreted with respect to his works. When he says that Zhang Sanfeng is the best martial artist, he didn't say that Zhang Sanfeng is the best theoriest; that was theorized by some readers.

    The point is that Jin Yong likes to be vague in interviews. And it's not just him, almost every famous person likes/needs to be vague so as to not shoot themselves in the foot on TV/news. Therefore, interpretation of Jin Yong's words is NECESSARY/REQUIRED, and we need to apply good logic with a solid understanding of his works in order to develop good interpretations which make sense and fit in with Jin Yong's overall philosophical trend.
    TC to Ken: "You need to watch the ending of ROCH 83."

  7. #27
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    I think it's Zhang Sanfeng. Zhang Sanfeng had a much more complete set of martial arts based upon his theories. Fist, sword, internal, qing gong. ZSF had it all. DGQB only had the sword and frankly that wasn't enough for Linghu Chong to beat either Dong Fang Bu Bai or Ren Woxing.

  8. #28
    Senior Member kwekmh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen
    I think it's Zhang Sanfeng. Zhang Sanfeng had a much more complete set of martial arts based upon his theories. Fist, sword, internal, qing gong. ZSF had it all. DGQB only had the sword and frankly that wasn't enough for Linghu Chong to beat either Dong Fang Bu Bai or Ren Woxing.
    I don't really think he created any high level internal energy technique, instead he learnt 9 Yang at a very young age.

    How do you know DGQB only have the sword? How did YG's internal energy jump so fast from training at the sea then? The condor probably trained with DGQB that way so thats why it brought YG there to train.

    LHC did not fully master the DG9J(the only thing that can be said to be truly mastered is the stance that overcomes sword). Also, RWX and DFBB also has great skills and DFBB mastered the KHBD. With LHC's current mastery of DG9J, of course it isn't enough to defeat RWX and DFBB.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    I am confused by what you mean. When Jin Yong is being interviewed in real-time, he doesn't necessarily have sufficient time to think through the question carefully. He also doesn't tend to go into too much detail in his responses, usually only giving a rather vague answer. For example when he was asked about the most beautiful girl, he said that Princess Fragrance is #1, while Xiao Longnu is also very high. What does this say about Xiao Longnu's beauty? Almost nothing. Like we didn't know prior to that interview that she was beautiful. Jin Yong never said how Xiao Longnu fares compared to other beauties in his universe, but some people have interpreted this lack of information as Xiao Longnu = #2.
    I don't get your point. Saying that "Jin Yong really meant Zhang Sanfeng was the best martial artist given the circumstances he was in, but hes not ACTUALLY the best martial artist" is like taking the very interview you mention and saying "Jin Yong really meant Princess Fragrance is #1, but just for that time period." You are taking a statement of JY's and attaching additional qualifiers to it without any real basis.

    With ZBF, we can say that he did not in fact reach the peak of perfection since XZ grabbed his sword from him and also because there are other characters described with the same phrase and who are yet not particularly good. In Z3F's case, Jin Yong said he was the best martial artist and every time Z3F fights someone he completely dominates like Sweeper Monk. Therefore there is no real evidence to counterbalance JY's statement.

    Isofar as Z3F getting tired goes, there is no time where he actually gets tired from fighting someone, nor is he afraid of getting tired in battles. I.e. when he was suffering from major internal injury and he is about to fight Ah San he thought that Ah San had good martial arts, but did not worry about getting tired. And he was worried that afterwards he might have problems matching inner power with Ah Er because he was already injured, he did not worry about being too tired from fighting Ah San. Everyone in the book other than Z3F has never seen him fight and has no clue about how Z3F fights or how much gas he has, and thus is a complete nonauthority on him. Even his disciple ZCS thought Xie Xun was better than Z3F, which turned out to be totally incorrect, so we can safely conclude only Z3F and JY really knows what he can do.

  10. #30
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K2Grey
    I don't get your point. Saying that "Jin Yong really meant Zhang Sanfeng was the best martial artist given the circumstances he was in, but hes not ACTUALLY the best martial artist" is like taking the very interview you mention and saying "Jin Yong really meant Princess Fragrance is #1, but just for that time period." You are taking a statement of JY's and attaching additional qualifiers to it without any real basis.
    The basis is that Zhang Sanfeng simply isn't the best martial artist. Do we really think that Zhang Sanfeng outrank the Sweeper Monk, the inventor of 6MSJ, the creator of Xiaoyao Sect martial arts, and Murong Longcheng as a martial artist? OK, we didn't see the other guys in the novel, so just consider him with the Sweeper Monk. Does it make any sense considering their demonstrated abilities? Not to me. Zhang Sanfeng's martial arts are only as good as the condor Greats, who are far behind the Sweeper Monk. So to me, Jin Yong's statement that "Zhang Sanfeng is the best martial artist" is false. Therefore in order to make sense of his confusing statement, I added an additional qualifier "given the circumstances."

    It's the same thing with the statement that "Xiao Feng is the best fighter." Well, how can that be true when there are several more superior fighters in the same book? The only way to make sense of that statement is to make further assumptions, namely that Jin Yong meant "given their opportunities to learn martial arts, Xiao Feng made the MOST use of what he had as a fighter."

    So, the difference between the Zhang Sanfeng statement and the Princess Fragrance statement that is while I don't see a reason to doubt Princess Fragrance's claim as the most beautiful, I do see a reason to doubt Zhang Sanfeng's claim as the best martial artist. Thus it is necessary to add an addendum to Jin Yong's statement about Zhang Sanfeng.

    In Z3F's case, [...] every time Z3F fights someone he completely dominates like Sweeper Monk. Therefore there is no real evidence to counterbalance JY's statement.
    Same with Dugu Qiubai.

    Isofar as Z3F getting tired goes, there is no time where he actually gets tired from fighting someone nor is he afraid of getting tired in battles
    How many times did we actually see him fight someone for an extended period of time? That's right -- ZERO. It is ILLOGICAL to assume that he would not get tired, when almost everyone else who got to age 70+ suffered this problem, and Zhang was 100 years old. It is simply against the trend. The guy is 100 years old, for god's sake. But that's really beside the point.
    Last edited by PJ; 11-15-06 at 09:20 PM.
    TC to Ken: "You need to watch the ending of ROCH 83."

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    The basis is that Zhang Sanfeng simply isn't the best martial artist. Do we really think that Zhang Sanfeng outrank the Sweeper Monk, the inventor of 6MSJ, the creator of Xiaoyao Sect martial arts, and Murong Longcheng as a martial artist? OK, we didn't see the other guys in the novel, so just consider him with the Sweeper Monk. Does it make any sense considering their demonstrated abilities? Not to me. Zhang Sanfeng's martial arts are only as good as the condor Greats, who are far behind the Sweeper Monk. So to me, Jin Yong's statement that "Zhang Sanfeng is the best martial artist" is false. Therefore in order to make sense of his confusing statement, I added an additional qualifier "given the circumstances."

    It's the same thing with the statement that "Xiao Feng is the best fighter." Well, how can that be true when there are several more superior fighters in the same book? The only way to make sense of that statement is to make further assumptions, namely that Jin Yong meant "given their opportunities to learn martial arts, Xiao Feng made the MOST use of what he had as a fighter."



    Same with Dugu Qiubai.



    How many times did we actually see him fight someone for an extended period of time? That's right -- ZERO. It is ILLOGICAL to assume that he would not get tired. The guy is 100 years old, for god's sake. But that's really beside the point.

    Excellent points and so valid.

  12. #32
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    1) I indeed believe Z3F is much better than the Condor Greats and do not see any evidence in the book to contradict this. There is evidence in DGSD to show that Xiao Feng is not the best fighter, such as how he cannot think of a way to defeat DY and comparison of possible fighting ability to XZ.

    2) So accordingly, Sweeper Monk would also get tired if he fights someone for a prolonged period of time? This is Z3F we're talking about. If ZWJ can last for several hours without tiring due to Taiji breathing then surely Z3F with his even better ability in Taiji can go on for quite a while.

  13. #33
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K2Grey
    1) I indeed believe Z3F is much better than the Condor Greats and do not see any evidence in the book to contradict this.
    For one, we should take into consideration that Zhang Sanfeng NEVER learned martial arts properly. His teacher did not even know martial arts, only internal training. He had to figure out everything out himself. As genius as he may be, lacking proper martial arts training will place him at a disadvantage compared to the other Greats. But it is true that Zhang Sanfeng was one of a kind of genius, because with no formal training and 1/3 of 9 Yang, he eventually evolved into a Great-level fighter.

    Some have claimed that Zhang Sanfeng in the novel thought that he was at best at the level of Guo Jing and Yang Guo. I personally don't know if this is true or not, but this claim has certainly been floating on the forum for years. Can anyone who is well-versed in HSDS confirm whether this is true or not?

    If that is true, then Zhang Sanfeng = the Greats.

    2) So accordingly, Sweeper Monk would also get tired if he fights someone for a prolonged period of time?
    Firstly, how old is the Sweeper Monk? Some have postulated about 70 years old. That would be much younger than Zhang Sanfeng. Secondly, if there ever existed a sage who could take 500 stances from the Sweeper Monk, then it is indeed in line with logic that Sweeper Monk would eventually tire out. However since no one in the novel has ever been able to withstand more than 2 stances from the Sweeper Monk, stamina is not normally an issue for him.

    This is Z3F we're talking about. If ZWJ can last for several hours without tiring due to Taiji breathing then surely Z3F with his even better ability in Taiji can go on for quite a while.
    Zhang Wuji who is also 80 years younger than Zhang Sanfeng.
    Last edited by PJ; 11-15-06 at 09:54 PM.
    TC to Ken: "You need to watch the ending of ROCH 83."

  14. #34
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    I think Jin Yong intended to show pretty clearly that Z3F was not in any way hampered by his lack of martial arts training; i.e. He Zudao fight. ZJB hadn't learned martial arts, nor had he created any martial arts. Yet He Zudao who was superior enough to everyone at Shaolin that no one dared to challenge him, was held off for 10 stances by ZJB (and HZD was trying pretty hard on the last few stances) and then got overpowered in internal power by ZJB. In my mind, for JY to have a 100+ year old supreme martial arts master in a book, and put in a little scene at the very beginning where a teenage version of said person is awesome despite no martial arts training or learning whatsoever, indicates that he is trying to set the martial arts master up on an exceedingly high pedestal.

    Again Z3F seems pretty vigorous to me and while people like Yin Tianzheng and Zhang Wuji may think "Oooh, he shouldn't fight, he's too old" I never saw Z3F go "Damn, I could have kicked his *** if I wasn't so decrepit."

  15. #35
    Senior Member duguxiaojing's Avatar
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    For the love of god I cant get the quote button to work onmy laptop for some reason...anyways

    This line was taken from Chapter 31

    太师父说,他自己或者尚未能达到郭大侠当年的功


    The grand master teacher is refering to Z3F and it is ZWJ talking to ZZR...although I have heard arguments that Z3F was simply being "modest"...but I guess its up to the readers interpretation. Anyways there is still the infamous line with the narrator equating ZWJ=Z3F=JY=GJ and others(YG,HYS,ZBT i'm assuming), so in terms of internal power they should all be pretty close.
    wow..04-08....4 years just like that..time flies..

  16. #36
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    111111111111111111111
    Last edited by RongYingMin; 10-07-08 at 01:14 PM.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by duguxiaojing
    Anyways there is still the infamous line with the narrator equating ZWJ=Z3F=JY=GJ and others(YG,HYS,ZBT i'm assuming), so in terms of internal power they should all be pretty close.
    Whos JY???
    爱是最最奇幻的魔术
    让人都要对它趋之若鹜
    这场魔术都是要结束
    真爱是箭在弦上不认输

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by dracnom
    Whos JY???
    Likely Yang Guo or not
    Last edited by strife_au; 11-16-06 at 04:31 AM.

  19. #39
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    Perhaps Jue Yuan, Zhang Sanfeng's master when he was still a little monk in Shaolin temple?.

  20. #40
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    mayb his implying Jin Yong who would be > than even sweeper.
    爱是最最奇幻的魔术
    让人都要对它趋之若鹜
    这场魔术都是要结束
    真爱是箭在弦上不认输

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