Dugu Qiubai vs Zhang Sanfeng: Martial Theory

[CC]

Also, note that in his injured state, Z3F was not too confident of taking on Zhao Min's guards. Sweeper Monk, after taking cracked ribs from a full power Xiao Feng Dragon Palm (which should be leagues ahead in terms of power compared to the fake monk's attack on Z3F) could still carry 2 bodies and outrun Xiao Feng AND blow JMZ (who is again leagues ahead of Zhao Min's guards) away in 1 simple sleeve flick from several zhang out.

Neither Z3F or ZWJ was capable of that 1 flick bowl over of Zhao Min's guards. Think about it. If Z3F could have just waved his sleeve and sent Ah Da/Er/San flying, wouldn't he have done it instead of worrying about how to handle them in his injured state? To top it off, JMZ is in a total different class from Ah Da/Er/San!

I haven't even started on that frggin FORCE FIELD of his.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Just a comment. Despite all this slow-overcoming-fast mumbo jumbo, we never see a slow taiji-jian defeating a much faster opponent. I can recall 2 fights. ZWJ against Fang DB. ZWJ's wooden sword was described as incredibly fast. And in ChongXu vs LHC, Chongxu's sword was described as blindingly fast as well.

The only slow (heck, motionless in fact!) overcoming-fast is bloody LHC when he sticks his sword out and everyone and their grandma runs into it.

Quoted for truth.

[CC]

Quoted for truth.

Come to think of it, what kind of Taiji philosophy was that in those 2 fights huh? Slow overcoming fast my foot! Both Chongxu and ZWJ basically used the Draw-Circles-All-Over Incredibly Quick and HexXor the Opponent theory.

[Ren Wo Xing]

I still laugh at the Wudang people getting owned by Linghu Chong's eyes. Now THAT is peak of perfection!

[PJ]

I think Jin Yong intended to show pretty clearly that Z3F was not in any way hampered by his lack of martial arts training; i.e. He Zudao fight. ZJB hadn't learned martial arts, nor had he created any martial arts. Yet He Zudao who was superior enough to everyone at Shaolin that no one dared to challenge him, was held off for 10 stances by ZJB (and HZD was trying pretty hard on the last few stances) and then got overpowered in internal power by ZJB. In my mind, for JY to have a 100+ year old supreme martial arts master in a book, and put in a little scene at the very beginning where a teenage version of said person is awesome despite no martial arts training or learning whatsoever, indicates that he is trying to set the martial arts master up on an exceedingly high pedestal.

Yes, Jin Yong put in an excellent showcase for teenage Zhang Junbao in beginning of HSDS. And yet, do we not think that if the fight had continued, He Zudao who is described by the narrator as 100 times superior in martial arts, would not eventually prevail over Zhang Junbao? He Zudao made the mistake of comparing internal energy with the teenager. If they competed technique, He Zudao would eventually win. So eventually He Zudao defeats Zhang Junbao in my opinion.

Compare this to the statement that Xiao Feng AND Jiumozhi have NEVER tasted defeat in their life, until they met the unusual demi-gods Xuzhu and Sweeper Monk. Xiao Feng was known to overcome stronger opponents. We know that Zhang Junbao could not possibly hope to overcome He Zudao who was comparable in internal energy but 100 times better in technique. So in some ways, Xiao Feng > Zhang Sanfeng in talent according to the narrator.

(I know that praise about Xiao Feng has been removed in the third edition. But I am relying on the 2nd edition since I've not read the 3rd edition yet.)

Another thing, I don't think Zhang Junbao's 10 stance endurance sufficiently rejects his disadvantage due to improper martial arts training. If I remember correctly, 1/3 of 9 Yang comprised most of his skill inventory. He had to figure out the rest by himself. 1/3 of 9 Yang at best approximately equivalent to 1/2 of 9 Yin, 1/2 of Dragon Elephant Prana, 1/2 of Sad Palms, etc, generously assuming that 9 Yang is possibly slightly better than these other Great-level arts. Who else under this unfavorable circumstance would be able to evolve into a Great with great technique and great internal energy, AND at the same time develop new martial arts that flourished over the centuries and into the present day? No one short of the greatest genius in martial arts. And yet, this greatest genius may not have reached the peak of perfection in martial arts -- I'm talking about the REAL peak of perfection. He couldn't have reached the peak of perfection, simply due to his hinderous martial arts training.

It is simply my belief that Zhang Sanfeng can make the most of what martial arts he has, under almost any circumstance. If he had the opportunity to taste the martial arts of Xiaoyao Pai, then he would have turned out better than the 3 Xiaoyao Pai elders. If he had the opportunity to undergo the Sweeper Monk's experience, then he would have turned out superior to the Sweeper Monk. But the fact is, Zhang Sanfeng's martial arts background sucks. Everyone else who reached his level had better training. That's why for him to have reached his level, is already semi-sufficient proof that he is the greatest martial artist ever.

[PJ]

Also, Zhang Sanfeng with all his greatness was incapable of purging the toxin of the Xuanming Divine Palm out of Zhang Wuji's body. However, he said that 9 Yang could do the job, implying that Zhang Sanfeng in some ways could not match the greatness of his 9 Yang-mastering teacher Reverend Jueyuan.

[PJ]

I would like to clarify my TRUE thoughts about Zhang Sanfeng as a martial artist, as I think I got a bit carried away with the debate and didn't express my thoughts in the right way.

The fact is, I _DO_ believe that Zhang Sanfeng _IS_ in fact the best martial artist in the Jin Yong universe, as Jin Yong have claimed. However, that "Zhang Sanfeng is the best martial artist" can propogate different interpretations.

Some have interpreted "Zhang Sanfeng being the best martial artist" as Zhang Sanfeng is the most powerful martial artist/fighter in the Jin Yong universe. I believe this is not the correct interpretation, because we see more powerful fighters throughout the Jin Yong universe that have shown more awesome capabilities than Zhang Sanfeng.

My personal interpretation is that Zhang Sanfeng is the most TALENTED/GIFTED artist, but it does NOT mean that Zhang Sanfeng has reached the most powerful state as a practioner. Zhang Sanfeng suffered from a weak martial arts background, to put it mildly. That he was able to evolve into the Great-level AND invent arts that endured for centuries to come and into the present day, speaks for his genius. However due to those huge hindrances, he did not have the priviledge of working with good material necessary to become more powerful. He did utilize his genius to the fullest extent, but the poor quality resources that he had access to (compared to other Greats) simply did not enable him to outrank everyone in the Jin Yong universe as a practioner of martial arts.

[K2Grey]

I feel he is the most SKILLED artist and the most SKILLED practitioner, not necessarily the most powerful, but in terms of techniques and talent he is the best.

[PJ]

Explain to me how someone can be the most SKILLED but not the most powerful? Unless his skills suck and don't translate into combat effectiveness.

I would personally just leave him as the MOST TALENTED.

[Ken Cheng]

Explain to me how someone can be the most SKILLED but not the most powerful?

Well...SWORD GOD Zhuo Bufan.

[PJ]

Yes! Hear my cries of excitement.

What have I tried to tell you guys ever since I stumbled on that Chinese guy's web claim of Zhang Sanfeng = the best because of his peak of perfection?

SWORD GOD Zhuo Bufan = Zhang Sanfeng, both reached the peak of perfection. Both are the MOST skilled! SWORD GOD who defeated Dugu Qiubai and everyone else in his quest to claim the fame as the most mysterious personality in Jin Yong universe, is the only one fit to co-exist with Zhang Sanfeng as the ultimate skillful. Neither is the most powerful, but their SKILL and PROFICIENCY have reached the highest stage. And that, my friends, is the meaning of peak of perfection.

[Wu Wudi]

He did utilize his genius to the fullest extent, but the poor quality resources that he had access to (compared to other Greats) simply did not enable him to outrank everyone in the Jin Yong universe as a practioner of martial arts.

I think you're overrating the "weak resources" factor a little bit. Although I agree with you that most martial artists' achievements are affected by their resources, that rule doesn't seem to apply to true geniuses of martial arts.

From the books, there's no definitive proof that Z3f didn't go beyond the Condor greats' levels as the several times he fought, he finished the fight with one move. In my opinion, I don't think any of the Condor greats could have defeated a Xuan Ming elder in 1 move. There were some mention of Z3F's possibly weaker stamina because of his old age but Z3F's martial arts were also described to be at such a high level that it is beyond comprehension.

More importantly, someone else with "weak resources" or even "no resources" reached a higher level than the Greats. Wang Shen, creator of the 9yinj, taught himself everything (internal and external arts). Before creating 9YINJ, WS was already an elite fighter from discovering the essence of martial arts from Taoist literature. After WS fought and lost to all those great fighters who gathered together to fight him, he then learned from their martial arts and created the invincible 9YINJ. WS, without the help of anyone, was able to create martial arts that was recognized as beyond the Greats' martial arts.

Like WS, Z3f, was not only a genius in martial arts but was also very knowledgeable about Taoism. Compared to WS, Z3f actually had a big advantage in that he already established a strong internal foundation at an early age. How could we say for sure that Z3F didn't go beyond Condor Greats level simply because he doesn't have the resources when another similar person had already done so?

[K2Grey]

Explain to me how someone can be the most SKILLED but not the most powerful? Unless his skills suck and don't translate into combat effectiveness.

Insufficient inner power.

[PJ]

Maybe I missed something, but is there any evidence that Zhang Sanfeng is actually above the Great-level? I personally do not believe there is much evidence to suggest this.

Some have claimed that Zhang Sanfeng has a record of annihilating or showing that he can annihilate his opponent in one stance. One such instance is when he placed one hand on the Xuanming Elder's shoulder. The Xuanming Elder knew that Zhang Sanfeng would be able to severely injure him. But consider this: The Xuanming Elder was using both of his hands to hold and shut Zhang Wuji's mouth. He had no way to fight back. In DGSD, when Ding Chunqiu would use one arm against Xiao Feng, it is stated that maybe every bone inside his body would shatter. Imagine if he used NO arm against Xiao Feng, suffice it is to say that Ding Chunqiu would have been mush. So Zhang Sanfeng's superiority over Xuanming Elder is not really more impressive than Xiao Feng's superiority over Ding Chinqiu, in my humble opinion. Even if Xuanming Elder is Ding Chunqiu's level, it does not prove that Zhang Sanfeng exceeds Xiao Feng's level.

Another instance of Zhang Sanfeng's single-stance execution (SSE) is when he shattered the fake Kongxiang's skull. However, how good is Kongxiang? Well, I can't personally imagine him to be better than his big brother Ah San. In DGSD, all of the Shaolin monks (including Xuan generation monks) unanimously thought that if they suffered a hit by Jiumozhi, they would instantly die. Even if the fake Kongxiang is on par with the Xuan generation monks, Zhang Sanfeng's single-stance execution would not be more exceptional than Jiumozhi's explicitly confirmed single-stance execution.

[Ken Cheng]

Maybe I missed something, but is there any evidence that Zhang Sanfeng is actually above the Great-level? I personally do not believe there is much evidence to suggest this.

Not much. By his own valuation, Cheung 3 Fung was uncertain that he had attained the level he had observed in Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor when he encountered them during his youth.

[Dennis Chen]

Maybe I missed something, but is there any evidence that Zhang Sanfeng is actually above the Great-level? I personally do not believe there is much evidence to suggest this.

Is there any evidence that Dugu Qiubai is above the Great-level? Certainly, Yang Guo hadn't reached the same level as DGQB with a sword, but his palm kung fu could very well have been better. Even his internal might have been better, there's nothing that even tells us about how good/bad DGQB's internal was.

[Ken Cheng]

Is there any evidence that Dugu Qiubai is above the Great-level? Certainly, Yang Guo hadn't reached the same level as DGQB with a sword, but his palm kung fu could very well have been better. Even his internal might have been better, there's nothing that even tells us about how good/bad DGQB's internal was.

There is one possible indicator: the fact that Yeung Gor had not achieved enough inner power by the end of ROCH to successfully use Wooden Sword and No Sword stage, which Dook Goo Kau Bai supposedly had.

[PJ]

Is there any evidence that Dugu Qiubai is above the Great-level? Certainly, Yang Guo hadn't reached the same level as DGQB with a sword, but his palm kung fu could very well have been better. Even his internal might have been better, there's nothing that even tells us about how good/bad DGQB's internal was.

I personally think it's quite obvious that Jin Yong intended Dugu Qiubai to be above the Greats, judging from the manner he was described. But, that's just my opinion.

Yang Guo might be better in palm and internal energy (although I think the latter is highly unlikely), Jin Yong made sure that Yang Guo was described to be below Dugu Qiubai's attainment in overall martial arts. On the other hand, we know much more about Zhang Sanfeng and I don't see any real indication for his superiority.

[ChronoReverse]

One such instance is when he placed one hand on the Xuanming Elder's shoulder. The Xuanming Elder knew that Zhang Sanfeng would be able to severely injure him. But consider this: The Xuanming Elder was using both of his hands to hold and shut Zhang Wuji's mouth. He had no way to fight back.

I have one thing to say about this. The elder couldn't move. He was holding small child hostage, if anyone else had touched his shoulder, he could've easily twisted ZWJ's head off as a threat. But ZSF would've crushed him instantly.

Even GJ in the beginning of ROCH wasn't that much higher than HD when they had the internal energy duel since he was actually able to resist until he saw sparkles. Now, that GJ is NOT nearly as powerful as the one at the end of ROCH obviously, but it does show that ZSF's gap was enormous in relation to everyone but ZWJ.


It's quite possible he's just a coward of course XD



Going through that section, I've noted that ZWJ actually spent two years learning Wudang 9 Yang before his stint with the doctor and then the fall into the valley and subsequent practice of the full 9 Yang. Food for thought.

[PJ]

More importantly, someone else with "weak resources" or even "no resources" reached a higher level than the Greats. Wang Shen, creator of the 9yinj, taught himself everything (internal and external arts).

But in fact, Huang Shang had countless resources at his disposal, namely the royal library of 5000+ books on taoist teachings. Certainly no other Great was known to have that resource.

WS, without the help of anyone, was able to create martial arts that was recognized as beyond the Greats' martial arts.

Without the help of anyone, but with plenty of help from things -- more than any other Great.

Reverend Jueyuan also cultivated amazing internal power by simply reading a book. That's a lot less resource than what was available to Huang Shang. Pre-9 Yin Huang Shang achieved better martial arts than Jueyuan, but Jueyuan (with much less resource) probably accumulated more internal energy than Pre-9 Yin Huang Shang.

Like WS, Z3f, was not only a genius in martial arts but was also very knowledgeable about Taoism. Compared to WS, Z3f actually had a big advantage in that he already established a strong internal foundation at an early age. How could we say for sure that Z3F didn't go beyond Condor Greats level simply because he doesn't have the resources when another similar person had already done so?

Firstly, I would argue that Huang Shang had more resources (5000+ taoist books) than Zhang Sanfeng (1/3 of 9 Yang).

Secondly, I would put Huang Shang slightly above the Greats, but not by a lot. Zhang Sanfeng may also be slightly above the Greats (i.e. 5% higher) but I don't think he's distinguished himself enough from the Greats to be put on another level.