Dugu Qiubai vs Zhang Sanfeng: Martial Theory

[Dennis Chen]

Who's was better?

[Loke-Gao-Zhu]

both of their sword theories are similar, non stance > stance swords.....but it hink Z3F is better since his development on non-sword fighitng, and nei gong is very very good too

[kwekmh]

both of their sword theories are similar, non stance > stance swords.....but it hink Z3F is better since his development on non-sword fighitng, and nei gong is very very good too

DGQB's internal is much higher than YG. YG internal ~ Z3F internal (from what I know)

[Dennis Chen]

DGQB's internal is much higher than YG. YG internal ~ Z3F internal (from what I know)

Has there been anything in the books that has suggested that DGQB's internal was that high?

[siegefried]

My reasoning for this is simple. DGQB never had any chance to truly pass on what he knew to others, but his accidental "disciples" are all earth-shattering figures when they have barely mastered a brief part of his overall theories.

ZSF might be good, but even with direct teaching to his disciples, none of them truly made the same kind of impact on Jiang Hu. That it survived could be due to good organisation. On the other hand, DGQB never intended to have created his own school.

Looking at the achievements, I think DGQB's theories has much higher value than ZSF's...

[Ken Cheng]

My reasoning for this is simple. DGQB never had any chance to truly pass on what he knew to others, but his accidental "disciples" are all earth-shattering figures when they have barely mastered a brief part of his overall theories.

ZSF might be good, but even with direct teaching to his disciples, none of them truly made the same kind of impact on Jiang Hu.

There's something to be said for the natural talent of the students. Yeung Gor, Fung Ching Yeung, and Ling Wu Chung were all extraordinary martial arts prodigies; aside from Cheung Chui San, who died early, Cheung 3 Fung's other students were only above-average talents.

[strife_au]

Anyone who follows the books without trying to over analyse bits and pieces of errors like they are some kind of historian trying to find some revolutionary piece of a puzzle.

Would clearly say Dugu Qiu Bai is certainly better, but when be people theorise so hard, they could say some points ZSF is superior to DGQB.

But IMHO in JY's mind DGQB > ZSF.

[Ken Cheng]

Anyone who follows the books without trying to over analyse bits and pieces of errors like they are some kind of historian trying to find some revolutionary piece of a puzzle.

Would clearly say Dugu Qiu Bai is certainly better, but when be people theorise so hard, they could say some points ZSF is superior to DGQB.

But IMHO in JY's mind DGQB > ZSF.

Jin Yong is recorded as saying that Cheung 3 Fung is the greatest martial artist who ever appeared in his novels. Since he obviously didn't mean that Cheung 3 Fung was the greatest *fighter* (because, after all, at the very least DGSD's Janitor Monk should be able to best Cheung 3 Fung in combat), then we can conclude that Jin Yong meant that Cheung 3 Fung was his best martial arts theorist...better than Dook Goo Kau Bai.

[strife_au]

Hmm I guess I didn't read the title post properly : |.

Theories are great but one could argue the best theories are worthless if they cannot be truly executed. A person might have the best theory on something but still be ousted by a person who has used an improved version of a theory that has worked for long periods.

I think ZSF would be probably the peak of the pack comparing characters that actually appeared in the novels, with his wisdom and creating such martial arts theories, but on a skill's level I don't think he's anywhere as talented as some others like that Murong Loucheng, Xia Ke Xing creator or Creator of the Kui hua Bao Dian... and perhaps their theories were not as exquisite as ZSF's but they were certainly superior...

Probably he was the best of JY's universe of important characters, but I reckon Damo would certainly have had better theories... IMO.

[Bangs]

Though I may not know much about Z3F's martial theories, I think DGQB is a level higher when it comes to martial theory. Just think of his achievement, by an early age (40 I think) he has mastered his sword skills that any object can be his sword. Not only that, he was undefeated and his sword skills were unmatched in his era, and those who came close to learning a fraction of his sword skills became very powerful. Such a feat is a testament to his incredible skills, he has proven that his martial theories were tested and true.

[Wu Wudi]

Probably he was the best of JY's universe of important characters, but I reckon Damo would certainly have had better theories... IMO.

In Ode to Gallantry, Z3f was placed alongside DAMO as the two greatest figures in the history of martial arts which shows how great Z3F's legacy was. DGQB's martial arts focused on beating an enemy by becoming stronger than the enemy while Z3F's martial arts relied on techniques to overcome the superior power of the enemy. In my opinion, that difference gives Z3f's martial arts the edge in theory because using lesser power to beat a more powerful opponent is ultimately a higher form of martial arts than overcoming an opponent with superior force.

[Ken Cheng]

Not only that, he was undefeated and his sword skills were unmatched in his era, and those who came close to learning a fraction of his sword skills became very powerful. Such a feat is a testament to his incredible skills, he has proven that his martial theories were tested and true.

Again, I think you need to factor in the innate talents of Dook Goo Kau Bai's ersatz "students": there is a clear talent difference between the likes of Yeung Gor and Ling Wu Chung vis a vis Sung Yeun Kiu and Yu Lin Chou.

[dracnom]

In Ode to Gallantry, Z3f was placed alongside DAMO as the two greatest figures in the history of martial arts which shows how great Z3F's legacy was. DGQB's martial arts focused on beating an enemy by becoming stronger than the enemy while Z3F's martial arts relied on techniques to overcome the superior power of the enemy. In my opinion, that difference gives Z3f's martial arts the edge in theory because using lesser power to beat a more powerful opponent is ultimately a higher form of martial arts than overcoming an opponent with superior force.

not necesarily, DGQB's Dugu 9 Jian is focused on speed and attacking all the time, finding the enemies flaws, this isn't beating the enemy with superior power.

[Wu Wudi]

not necesarily, DGQB's Dugu 9 Jian is focused on speed and attacking all the time, finding the enemies flaws, this isn't beating the enemy with superior power.

Beating an opponent with speed is a form of having superior power. OTOH, Taiji Sword can be used to beat an opponent who is faster than you.

[CC]

Beating an opponent with speed is a form of having superior power. OTOH, Taiji Sword can be used to beat an opponent who is faster than you.

Just a comment. Despite all this slow-overcoming-fast mumbo jumbo, we never see a slow taiji-jian defeating a much faster opponent. I can recall 2 fights. ZWJ against Fang DB. ZWJ's wooden sword was described as incredibly fast. And in ChongXu vs LHC, Chongxu's sword was described as blindingly fast as well.

The only slow (heck, motionless in fact!) overcoming-fast is bloody LHC when he sticks his sword out and everyone and their grandma runs into it.

[dracnom]

I wonder how long and how much energy it took DGQB to create DG9J...

[Bangs]

Again, I think you need to factor in the innate talents of Dook Goo Kau Bai's ersatz "students": there is a clear talent difference between the likes of Yeung Gor and Ling Wu Chung vis a vis Sung Yeun Kiu and Yu Lin Chou.

True, but DGQB didn't teach them anything. Z3F had lots of decades to impart his teachings.

[PJ]

we can conclude that Jin Yong meant that Cheung 3 Fung was his best martial arts theorist...better than Dook Goo Kau Bai.

Nah, IMO it means that Zhang Sanfeng turned out to be the finest martial artist possible given his not-so-fine circumstances. If Dugu Qiubai or Sweeper Monk were to experience Zhang Sanfeng's circumstances, then they would have turned out less fine.

[K2Grey]

It's "greatest martial artist", not "greatest martial artist given their circumstances".

Is it really JY's intent to have the greatest unorthodox martial artist be better than the greatest orthodox martial artist?

[PJ]

It's "greatest martial artist", not "greatest martial artist given their circumstances".

When did we outlaw interpretation of the author's statements? I must have missed that. The author doesn't have to spoonfeed his audience all the time. We can/should exercise our brain, you know.

I seem to recall a certain excerpt when the author said "there is no doubt that this man has reached the peak of perfection in swordplay," he didn't need to add "in the eye of the beholder." Does Jin Yong really have to spell out everything for his readers?