Whose internal energy was fiercer: Xiao Feng or Yang Guo?

[Whsie]

as for what PJ says, I agree. The Greats do seem to have more refinement in their skills than the DGSD Elites. And IMO, doing what YG did was harder than what XF did. For XF's case, all he had to do was just consectuively launch 3 straight palm energies at full force. On the other hand, YG had to perfectly controll his energy so that it would still controll his opponent, but still not harm them. It's like 2 guys blasting a stone with palm energies. XF (DGSD Elites) would be the one that blast the stones flying all over while YG (Greats) would be the one that blasts the stone and make it fall down neatly and in fashion. IMO, the 2nd one is harder since you have to have more control.

[CC]

as for what PJ says, I agree. The Greats do seem to have more refinement in their skills than the DGSD Elites. And IMO, doing what YG did was harder than what XF did. For XF's case, all he had to do was just consectuively launch 3 straight palm energies at full force. On the other hand, YG had to perfectly controll his energy so that it would still controll his opponent, but still not harm them. .

Anybody can just launch 3 strikes in succession. But what XF did was to time his own forward motion and the 3 palm waves such that they intersect perfectly at the impact point.

Anybody can roll 3 roll/throw balls while running forward, but can you throw all 3 one after another such that they all hit the target at the same time?

In any case, I don't see that 3 strike wave as XF's best display of finesse. The way he flicked the multiple projectiles neatly around Ah Zi using force manipulation (this one in particular), the combining and diversion of incoming strike force with his own and the mid-air reversal from a distance of MRF's thrown judge pen are better displays of his finesse in long distance manipulation.

[duguxiaojing]

as for what PJ says, I agree. The Greats do seem to have more refinement in their skills than the DGSD Elites. And IMO, doing what YG did was harder than what XF did. For XF's case, all he had to do was just consectuively launch 3 straight palm energies at full force. On the other hand, YG had to perfectly controll his energy so that it would still controll his opponent, but still not harm them. It's like 2 guys blasting a stone with palm energies. XF (DGSD Elites) would be the one that blast the stones flying all over while YG (Greats) would be the one that blasts the stone and make it fall down neatly and in fashion. IMO, the 2nd one is harder since you have to have more control.

I duno, XF's XL18Z display made me go , but YG's was pretty impressive too as PJ put it in a more subtle way.


About DGSD's LDS, I remember Hanky Panky posting a part where XF shoved AZ some 40 something feet out? I dont remember the actual distance but it was something ridiculous.

[PJ]

PJ,so are you implying that DGSD Elites>trilogy Greats? Your implying that YG is doing a fashion show while DGSD Elites are whooping peoples ***

I like how you associated the Greats with fashion show. If we consider that the greatest of the supremes in DGSD, Mr. Sweeper Monk, was a propeller of that kind of fashion show (as opposed to brute force), then one can draw the conclusion that sophistication sits at a higher level than brute force.

[PJ]

both JLFW and rev yideng used LDA against each other when at loveless valley.

That was not LDA.

[Athena]

That was not LDA.

PJ,

To quote Laviathan:"Concerning the distance: Well, earlier in this thread there was this whole issue about Xiao Feng being able to launch long distance attacks, and Trilogy people not being able to do so. People therefore assume that Xiao Feng is far more superior than the Trilogy Greats. Recently, Ken Cheng asked about Wuji's fight with the three monks in HSDS, and I started reading that part of the novel thoroughly. Now, Yin Tianzheng could perform a 3,5 meter palm attack. This is the same range that Yideng's Yiyang Finger and Duan Yu's Liumai Shenjian could reach. Now, I think it is impossible that the three of them are equals in terms of power. Given how much more powerful Wuji is compared to Yin Tianzheng, I think it is logical to assume that Wuji has the potential to at least reach 10 meters. That's just my way to adress the issue concerning LDA as mentioned by Kenny and others.

About the force: it cannot be measured. Xiao Feng could inflict pain on Murong Bo with a 10 meter attack. A lesser foe would have been severely inured or even killed. And you can argue how the force of Yin Tianzheng's palm attack is, i.e. can it kill outright or merely injure. I don't know. But it seems only logical that it is an effective way to cause harm to the opponent, or else he wouldn't use it. So given the circumstances, he can certainly inflict injuries. That's why I did not agree with Kenny's categorizing DGSD attacks as LDA (Long Distance Attacks) while Trilogy only has LDS (Long Distance Shoves). I mean, certainly Yin Tianzheng does merely not intend to push Dunan a little. LDA is LDA."
__________________________________________________ ____________________________________

To quote myself:"Shattering a cup with your internal energy or palm energy is impressive. But channeling your internal energy or palm energy up to a point where you can push a cup through air without breaking it, would seem a more difficult a feat. Furthermore, in my humble opinion if one could channel your energy in such a way that you could push a cup and by not breaking it, I don't see why shattering a cup would be a problem. Yin Kexi and co were the cups. I am not saying that Yang Guo is superior to Xiao Feng, but I think Yang Guo would be possible of a long distance attack that could seriously injure experts like Xiaoxiang Zi, etc.

Xiao Feng wanted to do some serious damage to Ding Chunqiu or at least force him to release A Zi. Of course, he would unleash an omnipotent destroying attack. Whereas, Yang Guo didn't really want to kill those lot.

Yang Guo and Huang Yaoshi were now several zhang (1 zhang is about 3,5 metres) apart from each other, and were exchanging palms with each other. Xiaoxiang Zi, Yin Kexi and the black-faced warrior became as it were rubber balls, mere toys, at the hands of Yang and Huang. They were entirely at their control and were sent soaring back and forth.......

Yin Kexi, Xiaoxiang Zi and that nameless warrior were trapped within the energy waves of both Huang Yaoshi and Yang Guo. They were several "zhangs" [數丈] apart from each other. Their energies were still "active" even with a distance of several metres in between them and lost none of its potency. So, several "zhangs" should be the limit of Huang and Yang, just like how more than one "zhang" was the limit of Zen master Dunan. As I said before, if Yang and Huang could channel their energies to push "cups" forward without breaking it, it shouldn't be a problem for them to crack or to shatter those cups.

Now comes the part what the distance would be for Yang Guo to shatter a "cup."
The key word or term here is several "zhangs" [數丈]. What is several, how much is several? That is a good question.
Well, in English there doesn't seem to be a number attached to several.
*But in Chinese [數] meaning several has been traced back during the Spring and Autumn Period. A certain minister, I remember correctly Yan Ying talking to Duke Ling of Qi (or Duke Zhuang of Qi), Yan Ying served both dukes. He referred to three generals and four other ministers using the character [數].
Hence, [數] meaning several has the numbers 3 and 4 attached to it. So, we could say that Yang Guo and Huang Yaoshi's distance is 3,5 "zhangs."

However, we are now discussing etymology of a Chinese character not wuxia martial arts and certainly not LDA differences between Xiao Feng and Yang Guo.

* According to my friend who told me this, she had read this from the Spring and Autumn Annals of Zuo [左傳]. Don't hold me on the source, it could have been another analect."

[Dennis Chen]

That was not LDA.

I'll have to go back and read it again, but I'm sure that it is a LDA. JLGS and Yi Deng were dancing around, meters away from one another, neither willing to accept the other's palm or finger force for fear of death.

[CC]

Although I am of the school of thought which subscribes to the notion XF>Greats in fighting, I wouldn't classify even LOCH Greats as being incapable of LDA.

LDS would be like the young Huang Rong in LOCH when she showed how she could shake the flame of a candle from a distance to Guo Jing. She mentioned that her skill was good for display but far from being good enough for a real fight.

YG could also smash a Sea Turtle's shell from a distance. That means its good enough to kill at least an ordinary human from a distance. When ZBT came out of the cave and waved his arms around, he easily broke several tree trunks. Although the distance was not mentioned, the text indicated that his palms never contacted the trees directly. Again, good enough to smash tree trunks = good enough to hurt or kill humans.

Besides give all those feats of energy which the LOCH Greats could do like voice transmissions and affecting enemies with sound energy, they definitely should do better in LDA then those 3rd rate SOD fighters who could.

[kyss of the sword]

thanks to Athena for the clearing that up. it breaks down to this. a normal strike is where the palm is intended to hit the opponent to inflict damage. a LDA is a strike where the palm/fist/finger is not within reach of the opponent but is still intended to inflict damage with plam wind/chi blast. trying to break down each attack in to long distance attack and long distance shove is rather silly. when chi force/palm wind is used to make a strike, it is a LDA. huang rong wind thrusting palm is also a LDA althrough an extremely weak one. Yin Tianzheng also proformed LDA but his force was not sufficient to injure the du generation monks. it does not mean he can't perform a LDA. LDA has different levels of force just like regular palm strikes. XF, YG, GJ and ZWJ could perform much more powerful LDA then the lower class fighters but it was not unique to them alone. there is a difference between the palm wind created by a powerful strike and the palm wind of a LDA. in the palm wind created by a powerful strike, the force is not released fully till the palm strikes, the wind is pushed by the force; while in the palm wind created by a LDA, the force is fully released before the palm is in range of the opponent, the wind is used to carry the force.

[PJ]

To quote Laviathan:"Concerning the distance: Well, earlier in this thread there was this whole issue about Xiao Feng being able to launch long distance attacks, and Trilogy people not being able to do so. People therefore assume that Xiao Feng is far more superior than the Trilogy Greats. Recently, Ken Cheng asked about Wuji's fight with the three monks in HSDS, and I started reading that part of the novel thoroughly. Now, Yin Tianzheng could perform a 3,5 meter palm attack. This is the same range that Yideng's Yiyang Finger and Duan Yu's Liumai Shenjian could reach. Now, I think it is impossible that the three of them are equals in terms of power. Given how much more powerful Wuji is compared to Yin Tianzheng, I think it is logical to assume that Wuji has the potential to at least reach 10 meters. That's just my way to adress the issue concerning LDA as mentioned by Kenny and others.

From what I understand, whether Yin Tianzheng launched a 3.5 meter attack or not remains inconclusive. But judging from the information in the novel, I don't think he is capable of such an assault.

I would like to clarify my point one more time, which coincides a little bit with what Athena wrote in the Martial Arts Comparison topic, and it has to do with interpreting the author's intention: In order to make the DGSD era seem more impressive than the other eras (in the novels written before DGSD), Jin Yong used more impressive descriptions to make the DGSD Elites (Xiao Feng, Xiao Yuanshan, Jiumozhi, Murong Bo) perform more powerful feats. 2 such examples that stand out are the explicitly stated Long Distance Attacks, and the Sealing of Acupoints Through the Air Without Physical Contact (SOATTAWPC). When whsie mentioned that SOATTAWPC was not really featured at all in LOCH, ROCH, and HSDS, it made me realize that Jin Yong really tried to create opportunities for DGSD characters to showcase their abilities, whereas the Trilogy characters may not have had these opportunities (because Jin Yong hadn't really thought of the feats yet!)

The reason I believe that Jin Yong wanted to make DGSD appear more impressive is to more easily express his theme for the novel that human suffering occurs at all levels of the population; no matter how powerful one is, he/she cannot escape the suffering without enlightenment. So it is necessary to make the DGSD Elites appear more powerful than previous figures.

As I stated previously, I believe that ROCH Greats are more or less on par with the DGSD Elites, even though the DGSD Elites appear more powerful to the naked eye.

That's why I did not agree with Kenny's categorizing DGSD attacks as LDA (Long Distance Attacks) while Trilogy only has LDS (Long Distance Shoves). I mean, certainly Yin Tianzheng does merely not intend to push Dunan a little. LDA is LDA."

The way I grasped Kenny's thoughts, The difference between LDA and LDS is that LDA actually proves that it can injure the opponent, while LDS just "pushes" them back. LDS is the less powerful version of LDA, although sometimes LDS reveals more sophistication. What Xiao Feng and Murong Bo did are LDA, while what the Sweeper Monk did to Jiumozhi is LDS (I believe).

To quote myself: "Shattering a cup with your internal energy or palm energy is impressive. But channeling your internal energy or palm energy up to a point where you can push a cup through air without breaking it, would seem a more difficult a feat. Furthermore, in my humble opinion if one could channel your energy in such a way that you could push a cup and by not breaking it, I don't see why shattering a cup would be a problem. Yin Kexi and co were the cups. I am not saying that Yang Guo is superior to Xiao Feng, but I think Yang Guo would be possible of a long distance attack that could seriously injure experts like Xiaoxiang Zi, etc.

Xiao Feng wanted to do some serious damage to Ding Chunqiu or at least force him to release A Zi. Of course, he would unleash an omnipotent destroying attack. Whereas, Yang Guo didn't really want to kill those lot.

I have given this comparison some thoughts since it first surfaced. I am not sure if I agree with this statement: Furthermore... if one could channel your energy in such a way that you could push a cup and by not breaking it, I don't see why shattering a cup would be a problem.

To give a real life analogy, consider me trying to push and shatter a cup in real-time. I can easily push the cup forward with my hand, and yet if I want to break the cup with the forces of my hand, it would require more effort.

Yang Guo was trying to push the cup forward while Xiao Feng illustrated that he can shatter the cup, and in my example the shattering (LDA) is harder to accomplish. That's why I don't think Yang Guo's LDS is sufficient to illustrate that he can do the LDA.

Would like to hear y'all's thoughts.

p.s. Happy American Turkey day to everyone !

[Whsie]

I disagree. What PJ gave an example of is just a minor force push. I can tap a cup and it won't break and of course if I tap if with enough power, it will break. In this case, breaking the cup does seem more impressive. However, if we are to take it into a more/higher level of force on a smaller/weaker object (which Wuxia fiction is mostly about), then higher force and not breaking seems more impressive. Let's face it, human ARE fragile. When you're at a level like XF or YG, you can easily destroy them, which fits into the high force against small object criterion, then you can say sending the force with control is more impressive. Because imagine this, XF blast that ultra powerful XL28Z to a cup and I'm sure he can easily shatter it. However, can he also send that super ultra powerful XL28Z and NOT break it? When you're acting at such force, the useage/control of internal is critical which the Greats can probably send the same type of attack and not break it.

[Whsie]

From what I understand, whether Yin Tianzheng launched a 3.5 meter attack or not remains inconclusive. But judging from the information in the novel, I don't think he is capable of such an assault.

I would like to clarify my point one more time, which coincides a little bit with what Athena wrote in the Martial Arts Comparison topic, and it has to do with interpreting the author's intention: In order to make the DGSD era seem more impressive than the other eras (in the novels written before DGSD), Jin Yong used more impressive descriptions to make the DGSD Elites (Xiao Feng, Xiao Yuanshan, Jiumozhi, Murong Bo) perform more powerful feats. 2 such examples that stand out are the explicitly stated Long Distance Attacks, and the Sealing of Acupoints Through the Air Without Physical Contact (SOATTAWPC). When whsie mentioned that SOATTAWPC was not really featured at all in LOCH, ROCH, and HSDS, it made me realize that Jin Yong really tried to create opportunities for DGSD characters to showcase their abilities, whereas the Trilogy characters may not have had these opportunities (because Jin Yong hadn't really thought of the feats yet!)

The way I graed Kenny's thoughts, The difference between LDA and LDS is that LDA actually proves that it can injure the opponent, while LDS just "pushes" them back. LDS is the less powerful version of LDA, although sometimes LDS reveals more sophistication. What Xiao Feng and Murong Bo did are LDA, while what the Sweeper Monk did to Jiumozhi is LDS (I believe).

Actually, there were 2 such instances. The Song Yuan Chiao/Yin Tian Zheng example. However, I'm not sure they were using internal or not....

My take on the Dunan vs. Yin Tian Zheng case: Dunan for sure can fire that 3.5 meters attack. When Dunan fires that LDA (which clearly isn't LDS or just "shoving" since it did cause great stress and damage), Yin Tian Zheng matches that palm wind when it closes up on him. Don't forget, Yin Tian Zheng's goal was to get near, so he practically was going up against a hurricane blowing toward him, no needing to throw out an LDA, just to match that LDA when it gets near.

What you say is not neccesary true. Because according to your words if LDS is only a less powerful version where it can only push, then if XF met JMZ, MRB, XYS and match palm energy, they would only be "pushing" each other. The reason why LDA seems more powerful is only because it was used against far inferior opponents. Don't forget, who were the LDA used on? MRB on the Duan people. XF on DCQ. Opponents inferior. On the other hand, the Greats were using it among themselves, not being able to make that BOOM attack. As for Yideng and JLFW, I trully don't understand why you say that is not an LDA. Yideng and JLFW's palm/finger energy cleary were able to harm each other and that is why they kept on jumping back.
Sweeper Monk's attack IMO was just a showcase of LDA with great sophistication as was HYS and YG's matching. And obviously for YG and HYS's case was because they had no intention to kill those 3 while XF had the intention to blast and shredd up DCQ.

[Pacifian]

To give a real life analogy, consider me trying to push and shatter a cup in real-time. I can easily push the cup forward with my hand, and yet if I want to break the cup with the forces of my hand, it would require more effort.

Your analogy is inappropriate, because channeling energy through the cup isn't the same as pushing.

What is an eye-opener for channeling your energy through the cup would be allowing the cup to transport your energy and attack others, as though it was your hand. By pushing, the damage will be dealt by *impact*, where mostly all your force has been absorbed as you throw. By transmitting your energy through the cup, the opponent experiences a pain as though you palmed him, whereas in the pushing case, it was the force that was pushing the cup, and eventually it was the cup that inflicted damage.

[kyss of the sword]

think of it as the difference between using a .22 calibre handgun and a Magnum Research BFR (Biggest Finest Revolver) that fires .45 to .70 calibre bullets.

both are guns but one packs more fire power.

LDA is the same.

[Humplewumps]

Xiao Feng was losing an alarming rate of internal energy against Yo Tanzhi AND Morung ***.

Alarming rate? Look at how long the text said he would last before tiring at maximum-power-output.

As for whose energy/hits/palm is fiercer.

According to HYS---> GJ can match YG's palm.

According to JY---> XF's palm is stronger then GJ.

[JusTea242]

This question is ridiculous.

[batmankiller]

Ok using a finger tap on a cup is so in-appropriate.. how bout try this:
A table like 12 feet long and you push the cup with LESS than 80% of your str (this is to prove that a person can control their internal energy and can destroy at will.. and not just be using all your str and with all your str all you can do is control it but not destroy it.. hope you get it) across the table making it move ONLY 11 feet so it doesn't fall off the ground.. VS a person using all their str and making it fall off the table... Which is more impressive?

And this analogy is quite appropriate because the str it takes for us to move the cup is pretty much the str it takes (VERY VERY ROUGH COMPARISON) for YG or XF to kill either of the people they were up against.

[PJ]

Your analogy is inappropriate, because channeling energy through the cup isn't the same as pushing.

What is an eye-opener for channeling your energy through the cup would be allowing the cup to transport your energy and attack others, as though it was your hand. By pushing, the damage will be dealt by *impact*, where mostly all your force has been absorbed as you throw. By transmitting your energy through the cup, the opponent experiences a pain as though you palmed him, whereas in the pushing case, it was the force that was pushing the cup, and eventually it was the cup that inflicted damage.

Thank you for your enlightenment.

[Whsie]

This question is ridiculous.

how so? I hope you're not basing your answers off assumptions.

[Whsie]

Alarming rate? Look at how long the text said he would last before tiring at maximum-power-output.

As for whose energy/hits/palm is fiercer.

According to HYS---> GJ can match YG's palm.

According to JY---> XF's palm is stronger then GJ.

While XF's palm is fiercer, keep in mind fiercer does not equal better.

In the battle that XF was fighting, 1 hour is actually a decent time, but that is when he would be exhausted. The time that his palm energy would start weakening would be before 1 hour. The fact is that XL28Z was still too hard/meng. Eventually when XF's energy weakens, that is when YTZ and MRF would win (assuming DY didn't butt in) because even with maximum output, XF was at best equal to the YTZ/MRF combination (the book directly mentioned that XF at first had the upper hand in the 1st 10 stances, but after that it was pretty much equal).