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Thread: Whose internal energy was fiercer: Xiao Feng or Yang Guo?

  1. #41
    Member Humplewumps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whsie
    While XF's palm is fiercer, keep in mind fiercer does not equal better.
    Being less fierce also does not equal better right? In any case, I remember a long thread with Hanky P arguing about the proper context of translating the term 'Lei Hoi'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Humplewumps
    Being less fierce also does not equal better right?
    GJ's XL18Z may be inferior when the two palms are judged by their "fierceness"; however, we must not forget it does have its good sides, where the 9 Yin enhancement comes in. Remember that it could alternate between soft and hard, yin and yang, absorb and expel, etc. The combination of both elements would not put it at a disadvantage if we were to compare the two people's skills.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Humplewumps
    Being less fierce also does not equal better right? In any case, I remember a long thread with Hanky P arguing about the proper context of translating the term 'Lei Hoi'.
    Oh...., stop that li hai argument again. I was part of that argument as well and I mentioned the flaws in some of the examples people give. Some people give sport examples where offensive is clearly more important than defense and in those cases, li hai does = better. However, combat is not pure offense as you also need a good blend of defense. In other words, you need balance. That's when I gave the example of basketball NBA (don't remember which ones) where I mention why MJ was superior to Magic Johnson or Larry Bird not just because of MJ's explosive offense ranked #1 (highest scoring average), but also his defense where he was on the All NBA 1st Defensive Team. Likewise, XF in this case would parallel my analogy of having the scoring average(the fierceness), but not the defense (energy sucker). While GJ would be on the line of less scoring average, but also on the all NBA defensive team. Which one do I personally see as the better one? The more balanced one.

    So to answer your first question(btw, you mind as well asked fierce=better because you had a double negative), not neccesary. It depends who is more balanced. Based on your question, wouldn't Tachi be worse than all those fierce arts? Heck no, Tachi is well recognized as an elite art, but it's not fierce is it? Yes, but it's balanced.
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出“一阳指”功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的“一阳指”功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

  4. #44
    Member JusTea242's Avatar
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    If the two exchange palms,YG and XF arms will break and we can see a YG using his sleeve and a one arm XF battle.

  5. #45
    Senior Member Huang Rong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JusTea242
    If the two exchange palms,YG and XF arms will break and we can see a YG using his sleeve and a one arm XF battle.
    Ha-ha, that'd probably be true.
    Yang Guo & Zhou Botong said in Chapters 6, 11 & 25 of ROCH:
    - 这道姑也算得美了,只是还不及桃花岛郭伯母,更加不及我姑姑。
    - 原来郭伯母竟是这般美貌,小时候我却不觉得。
    - 龙姑娘,我瞧你品貌才智,和那小黄蓉不相上下,武功也跟她差不离。

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    Perhaps, only in an English forum would u find people associate ferocity/power when they come across the Chinese words of "zui lihai".

    *sigh* Here goes…

    English-to-Chinese Dictionary definition of the word "best":

    http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache...&ct=clnk&cd=54

    *The Chinese characters of "zui lihai" are highlighted in yellow. Scroll down.

    Examples of famous people regarded as "zui lihai": -

    Roger Federer is recognised as "zui lihai" in tennis today. Agassi commented that Roger was the "zui lihai" opponent he's ever faced in his career. Nadal went as far as calling him the "zui lihai" athlete.
    Muhammad Ali is self-proclaimed "zui lihai".
    Michael Schumacher is known by many to be "zui lihai" in Formula 1 racing.
    Ding Junhui is "zui lihai" in China at snooker.
    According to Donny Yen, Bruce Lee is "zui lihai".

    Furthermore...

    Wei Yixiao is credited by Jinyong as possessing "zui lihai" qing gong in his canon. Though he did not sound certain in his reply.

    Taichi is a contender for China's "zui lihai" martial arts, as a matter of fact.

    Links/evidence available upon request.

  7. #47
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    not really, everyone has their own vocabulary. Some people say zui chang, which techincally is the correct useage. If you search up zui li hai in chinese and then translate that defitinition, you get fierce related defitnitions.
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出“一阳指”功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的“一阳指”功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

  8. #48
    Member Humplewumps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whsie
    not really, everyone has their own vocabulary.
    Yeah, it sure seems that way!

    In Chinese publications from Hong Kong to Taiwan to China, Zui Lihai is commonly used to describe the best in stuff like sports, skills,chess etc etc. I remember 'Zui Lihai' being used in the papers to describe Kasparov back in the old days. I am sure they were not stressing that his chess skill was the most fierce but rather that it was the _best_.
    Last edited by Humplewumps; 03-13-07 at 01:08 AM.

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    um but it said that YG's melanchohic plams can equally match the dragon subduin palms

    so id say that they r equal

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyss of the sword
    i got to go with yang guo. XF had the most yang palm technique in jinyong uni, but as for inner power specifically, i say yang guo has the fiercest inner power. while shaolin is said to be of the hard external type school, they are actually the premier school in combining both external and internal martial arts and training. while their external was hard, their inner power was decribed to be aggresive and yang but soft at the same time(various novels of jinyong). XF may have had a less aggresive type of inner power then everyone assumes.
    i agree, yg's internal is the most fierce

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Night Sea
    Perhaps, only in an English forum would u find people associate ferocity/power when they come across the Chinese words of "zui lihai".
    Not quite.

    The meaning of "best" in Li4 Hai4 has only been established as a looser use of the word. Strictly, the meaning of Li4 Hai4 as used in the Guoyu (Taiwan) dictionary of the Education Department (and so do many other Chinese dictionaries) refers to only "fierce and ferocious; of unbearable force; formidable", where the antonym would be "soft". The meaning of "best" only comes in because people have loosely extended the part of "not easy to handle/tackle".

    I would suggest you use a better dictionary when trying to figure out these meanings. Such dictionaries you use aren't too reliable; like many other dictionaries (be they in whatever language), they tend to stay closer to the modern usage of words. Particularly when you're trying to find the meaning of a word used in more "ancient" contexts, such dictionaries you use aren't good enough. Additionally, you can break down these words into single words and see whether you could find the meaning of "best" in it. In fact, one particular usage of Li4 Hai4 is in fact "cruel and vicious" because of the words Li4 and Hai in it, which both have meanings that point to "terrible".
    Last edited by Pacifian; 03-11-07 at 06:26 AM.

  12. #52
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    Perhaps, only in an English forum would u find people associate ferocity/power when they come across the Chinese words of "zui lihai".
    I'm pretty sure it's a case having more to do with what the readers want to believe. It happens to the best of us.

  13. #53
    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    In DGSD, the only time that I recall at the moment where someone extremely powerful did a LDS (Long Distance Shoving) is Sweeper Monk's sleeve wave on Jiumozhi. It was not a LDA because it was not meant to injure the opponent (Sweeper Monk being the god of enlightenment and all).

    Almost All other times in DGSD, when people launched palm wind, they were wanting to assault their opponent. That's why you don't see much LDS in DGSD. There was no circumstance equivalent to Yang Guo's display of trapping 3 Mongolians in his palm wind just for show.

    Hey, you forgot the great 80 foot twin push/pull LDS that Daddy Murong did at Shao Shi Shan which the narrator stated could have turned into 2 killing blows if he wanted?

    Now back to the old argument with some other posters;

    As for the 'Zui Li Hai' thing, I find it pure bias. Go read the average Chinese newspaper instead of waving your chosen Chinese/English dictionary. How many times do you see 'Li Hai' being used in instances where fierce has nothing to do with it but rather intelligence, skill and ability.

  14. #54
    Senior Member ChanceEncounter's Avatar
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    The etymological origin of Li Hai means fierceness, ferocity, or viciousness. But modern and colloquial usage of the world indicates quality or ability. The most 'li hai' would thus be interpretted as the best.

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    In this case, I would say YG had "fiercer" internal. But it does not mean that he had "better" internal per say.

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    Yang Guo definitely had fiercer, and better internal. Xiao Feng does not rely on his internal energy while fighting. He uses his natural reflexes and skills to overcome his opponents. However if he fought Yang Guo, his skills would be countered because the purpose of yang guo's heavy iron sword is to counter powerful techniques with simple yet powerful thrusts.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackattack View Post
    Yang Guo definitely had fiercer, and better internal. Xiao Feng does not rely on his internal energy while fighting. He uses his natural reflexes and skills to overcome his opponents. However if he fought Yang Guo, his skills would be countered because the purpose of yang guo's heavy iron sword is to counter powerful techniques with simple yet powerful thrusts.
    That's just in theory how HIS wants itself to work. It doesn't mean it will actually work against every opponent, especially if the opponent is more powerful.

    Here is another theory:

    Heavy Iron Sword is based on the principle of wielding a heavy weapon as if it were light. It was explained that the superior stage of Wooden Sword is based on the higher principle of wielding a light weapon as if it were heavy. Yang Guo was in the former stage, while in DGSD, Duan Yanqing demonstrated a greater achievement when he wielded a light cane as if it weighted tens of more pounds, and used it effectively in combat. It can be thus concluded that Duan Yanqing > Yang Guo. And we all know that Duan Yanqing is no match for Xiao Feng, so Xiao Feng >>> Yang Guo.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    That's just in theory how HIS wants itself to work. It doesn't mean it will actually work against every opponent, especially if the opponent is more powerful.

    Here is another theory:

    Heavy Iron Sword is based on the principle of wielding a heavy weapon as if it were light. It was explained that the superior stage of Wooden Sword is based on the higher principle of wielding a light weapon as if it were heavy. Yang Guo was in the former stage, while in DGSD, Duan Yanqing demonstrated a greater achievement when he wielded a light cane as if it weighted tens of more pounds, and used it effectively in combat. It can be thus concluded that Duan Yanqing > Yang Guo. And we all know that Duan Yanqing is no match for Xiao Feng, so Xiao Feng >>> Yang Guo.
    Nope. Duan Yang Qing is at MOST 30 percent of Yang Guo. I'll explain. As stated by the tian long monks in DGSD, the tian long monks have only reached the 3rd stage at most at the yi yang finger technique. Duan Yan qing was roughly equal to the tian long monks, but don't forget he's crippled. But we''ll just say duan yanqing is at the 3rd stage, just for the sake of it.

    Yi Deng Dashi, on the other hand, was stated by jinyong himself to have achieved the "peak of perfection", at the yi yang finger technique, while people like duan yan qing and the tian long monks are only at stage 3.

    As shown in the below passage,

    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响,一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出“一阳指”功夫, 正面拦截。法 王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚。
    此时一灯大师的“一阳指”功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳 平和,但沛然 浑厚,无可与抗。

    Yi Deng, who has achieved the highest stage of yi yang technique, is far stronger than Duan yan qing or any of the tian long monks, that is without doubt.

    But even Yi Deng himself stated that he could never ever hope to match Yang Guo's incredible internal energy, even when he was young. Put it simply, Yang Guo or Yi Deng would slaughter Duan yanqing, without a doubt.

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    I think the argument to that was that there was no level system of YYZ explicitly mentioned in the Trilogy era and that the version received by 1Deng was different and possibly watered down...similar to XL18Z apparently....

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    Nope. Duan Yang Qing is at MOST 30 percent of Yang Guo. I'll explain. As stated by the tian long monks in DGSD, the tian long monks have only reached the 3rd stage at most at the yi yang finger technique. Duan Yan qing was roughly equal to the tian long monks, but don't forget he's crippled. But we''ll just say duan yanqing is at the 3rd stage, just for the sake of it.
    First of all, YG is also a cripple

    Second, you have not addressed PJ's argument on HIS theory. You cling to the argument that DYQ and the monks did not achieve top stage for YYZ, but ignore the issue raised on the Wooden sword stage that PJ has laid out.

    Yi Deng, who has achieved the highest stage of yi yang technique, is far stronger than Duan yan qing or any of the tian long monks, that is without doubt.
    DYQ, who has achieved the Wooden Sword stage, is far stronger than YG, that is without doubt.

    But even Yi Deng himself stated that he could never ever hope to match Yang Guo's incredible internal energy, even when he was young. Put it simply, Yang Guo or Yi Deng would slaughter Duan yanqing, without a doubt.
    But, DYQ himself could never hope to match XF. Put it simply, XF or DYQ would slaughter YG, without a doubt.
    Quote Originally Posted by remixedasian View Post
    6: Duan Yu is the greatest martial artist of all time

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