Whose internal energy was fiercer: Xiao Feng or Yang Guo?

[juvetb]

I would like to clarify my point one more time, which coincides a little bit with what Athena wrote in the Martial Arts Comparison topic, and it has to do with interpreting the author's intention: In order to make the DGSD era seem more impressive than the other eras (in the novels written before DGSD), Jin Yong used more impressive descriptions to make the DGSD Elites (Xiao Feng, Xiao Yuanshan, Jiumozhi, Murong Bo) perform more powerful feats. 2 such examples that stand out are the explicitly stated Long Distance Attacks, and the Sealing of Acupoints Through the Air Without Physical Contact (SOATTAWPC). When whsie mentioned that SOATTAWPC was not really featured at all in LOCH, ROCH, and HSDS, it made me realize that Jin Yong really tried to create opportunities for DGSD characters to showcase their abilities, whereas the Trilogy characters may not have had these opportunities (because Jin Yong hadn't really thought of the feats yet!)

The reason I believe that Jin Yong wanted to make DGSD appear more impressive is to more easily express his theme for the novel that human suffering occurs at all levels of the population; no matter how powerful one is, he/she cannot escape the suffering without enlightenment. So it is necessary to make the DGSD Elites appear more powerful than previous figures.

As I stated previously, I believe that ROCH Greats are more or less on par with the DGSD Elites, even though the DGSD Elites appear more powerful to the naked eye.

This is a very valid argument, though I have a more simplistic view in the comparison of martial arts.

1) I think DGSD characters do not "appear" to be stronger, or more forceful. They actually are. This fits into the central theme of DGSD, of irony based on the fall of ridiculously strong characters (XYP elders, XF) the emergence of ridiculously strong characters who were previously weaklings (DY, XZ), and how the rise and fall of characters are tied together in a series of stories which highlights the complexities of life. There is a need for them to display powerful martial arts, but I don't think "powerful" and "refined" are binary and necessarily dichotomous; they are only written explicitly to be powerful as you had pointed out, to fulfil the needs of the story, but there is nothing ostensible about this.
My personal belief is that DGSD features the most elite martial artists.

2) This brings us to a very natural question of, ok it's fine and all for people to make baseless claims of "I think, I think..", but come on, where's your proof? Point out specific passages and feats of superiority then, if you are so sure.
My answer is that this isn't about LDA and SOTTAWPC, but what is behind JY's writing the stories? What are his thoughts and intent?
The intent must surely and irrevocably be to sell stories, and if strong martial arts are needed (because the Greats are by definition, Greats) then these bits will be written. Certainly I dont think, JY would consider, I can't write Guo Jing too powerful, because XF's XL18Z is the best. He isn't interested in the comparison, and he writes GJ in the way to fulfill the story's needs, even if somewhere down the line GJ might ostensibly be more powerful than XF. He cant possibly hold back on his description thinking, "oh no if i write that GJ does this and this then he might appear better than XF (or the other way around since DGSD came later)".
Another common point is that refinement is displayed for example, through HYS, who invented and developed his own set of Martial Arts, as compared to DGSD where people just learnt existing martial arts. Again I feel this is somewhat unfair. THe martial arts in DGSD was already very high, why do I need to learn new martial arts when with level 9 XWXG I can already trash Shaolin and imitate every skill? More importantly JY had deliberately set the context of 4 greats, neither of whom are the main protagonist. He can't have overlapping martial arts between the 4. So naturally he needs ot differentiate between the martial artists.
In any case, how many martial arts can an author come up with (or want to come up with?) I think YJJ and XL18Z are very good examples of hey this works well, let's keep it. Or an even better example, DGQB and his set of martial arts.

So in the end, I think author's intent is a far more important point than the comparison of feats.

[tape]

Juvetb,

I agree with most of your post. There aren't really many linkages that can support that the Greats from LOCH/ROCH are equal to the elites in DGSD except for wanting the protagonists to be on similar levels throughout the JY canon.


PJ,

If he wanted to transmit that message, why would he just create seemingly more powerful characters, instead of actually creating more powerful characters? He created super characters to show they weren't immune to suffering. As juvetb said, it doesn't matter if they were more powerful because it was necessary for the theme of the book, they are still more powerful.

[Western Eccentric]

I think they are "equal" in terms of internal/external (physical) strength but YG have "better" stamina..

[Ken Cheng]

I think they are "equal" in terms of internal/external (physical) strength but YG have "better" stamina..

What makes you say that? Yeung Gor's partial 9 Yum Jen Ging training? Full and complete knowledge of 9 Yum Jen Ging's inner power techniques would indeed grant better stamina, but I don't believe that as of the end of ROCH, Yeung Gor had trained in the complete 9 Yum Jen Ging.

[Western Eccentric]

From his fight with Jinlun at Xianyang which after beat the evil monk he later join fight with GJ and co to get rid the Mongols even he still have "enough" stamina to compete with Mongke Khan horse..

[Western Eccentric]

What makes you say that? Yeung Gor's partial 9 Yum Jen Ging training? Full and complete knowledge of 9 Yum Jen Ging's inner power techniques would indeed grant better stamina, but I don't believe that as of the end of ROCH, Yeung Gor had trained in the complete 9 Yum Jen Ging.

- don't forget he come from Passionless Valley which need 3 days from Xianyang with GJ red horse or 4-5 days with normal horse
- then he fought Jinlun and have a "minor" injured
- after beat Jinlun he join fight with GJ
- lastly he compete with Mongke Khan horse
Throughout Trilogy perhaps only Wuji could rivalled YG long lasting stamina/endurance

[Ken Cheng]

Other than the fight against Mo Yung F'uk, Yau Tan Tze, and Ding Chun Chou at Shaolin, I don't remember Kiu Fung ever struggling from limited stamina. Against those three, it only was an issue because the enemies' overwhelming collective ability.

[Western Eccentric]

Other than the fight against Mo Yung F'uk, Yau Tan Tze, and Ding Chun Chou at Shaolin, I don't remember Kiu Fung ever struggling from limited stamina. Against those three, it only was an issue because the enemies' overwhelming collective ability.

How about Juxian Manor battle when he is "injured" and save by XYS it's seems his injury was "external" injury same like YG when facing Jinlun at Xiangyang but XF at that time almost have not enough strength to fight seriously with XYS since they only exchange 20 stances without internal art at all..

[Ken Cheng]

How about Juxian Manor battle when he is "injured" and save by XYS it's seems his injury was "external" injury same like YG when facing Jinlun at Xiangyang but XF at that time almost have not enough strength to fight seriously with XYS since they only exchange 20 stances without internal art at all..

He would have been fine if he didn't have to fight and protect the helpless Ah Chu at the same time. Without Ah Chu present, Kiu Fung would have slaughtered every warrior at the manor with little effort.

[Western Eccentric]

I mean is XF injury condition compare with YG injury when he fought Jinlun at Xiangyang which these injury not affect at all to YG while XF when he "injured" he couldn't fight XYS in the seriously fight that's mean YG have better "endurance" than XF (thanks to the snake organ)..

[Western Eccentric]

He would have been fine if he didn't have to fight and protect the helpless Ah Chu at the same time. Without Ah Chu present, Kiu Fung would have slaughtered every warrior at the manor with little effort.

I don't talk how they get injury but how they do after getting injury..

[a_tumiwa]

rather than create a new thread, i post here

pre-16 years, Jinlun Fawang inner energy > Yang Guo
how about post-16 years?

Whose internal energy was fiercer: Jinlun Fawang or Yang Guo?

[Western Eccentric]

I think Jinlun YG Wuji and XF have a "similar" energy type so they are about equal the difference among them is stamina/endurance..

[CC]

This is a very valid argument, though I have a more simplistic view in the comparison of martial arts.
The intent must surely and irrevocably be to sell stories, and if strong martial arts are needed (because the Greats are by definition, Greats) then these bits will be written. Certainly I dont think, JY would consider, I can't write Guo Jing too powerful, because XF's XL18Z is the best. He isn't interested in the comparison, and he writes GJ in the way to fulfill the story's needs, even if somewhere down the line GJ might ostensibly be more powerful than XF. He cant possibly hold back on his description thinking, "oh no if i write that GJ does this and this then he might appear better than XF (or the other way around since DGSD came later)".


So in the end, I think author's intent is a far more important point than the comparison of feats.

Exactly. You don't think when JY was writing the DFBB fight he would be thinking, oh RWX is equal to FZ with YJJ and add LHC this would make DFBB more powerful than YG and XF etc etc.

As far as the original question, given JY flat out answered that XF's dragon palm is the strongest out of XF/GJ and H7G (during the Tsinghua 100 question session) , he always intended XF to be above GJ and H7G and in extension, YG too.

[Western Eccentric]

Well I would buy the idea that XF > GJ/YG same like We consider Real Madrid > PSG/Juventus though they are classified in same "class" i.e "Giant team"..