Qiao Feng and Yang Kang

[crazy_horse]

These characters have same fate yet people praise Qiao Feng while condemn Yang Kang. In the end, Yang Kang chose Jin over Song, while Qiao Feng saved Song at the expense of Liao. What do you think?

[CDonC]

Yang Kang was never heroic, everything that he ever did (keeping his status as Jin prince, not willing to acknowledge his father, lying on many many occasions) was for wealth. He couldn't handle being a Han commoner in exchange for a cushy life in a palace. He had some redeeming qualities, but he was pretty greedy.

Xiao Feng, on the other hand, was torn between his identity as a adoptive Han person and a blood Liao person. He took his own life as a last stand to prevent a war between the two countries he had deep ties to. He never really chose Song, he just didn't want a war to break out which would cause deaths to people across the land.

Their stories are similar, but not really comparable.

[Han Solo]

Superficially, both betrayed their country of origin.

However,

One chooses peace over war, whereas the other promotes empire-building and war.

One chooses to give up wealth and power, whereas the other dreams of becoming a prince.

One is principled and values friendship, the other kills his own friend in order to learn more martial arts.

Not much similarity is it?

Han solo

[CC]

No, XF did not betray his country of origin. He was NOT just defending Song against the Liao. He did not kill Liao soldiers, he wanted to stop war to save lives on both sides.

[kwekmh]

No, XF did not betray his country of origin. He was NOT just defending Song against the Liao. He did not kill Liao soldiers, he wanted to stop war to save lives on both sides.

It might still be considered betraying as he went against Liao in a way.

[Roodo]

I say Yeah,unfair judgement

[CDonC]

If he actually betrayed them or not, I don't know, but he definitely felt like he did after he stopped his sworn brother.

[CC]

It might still be considered betraying as he went against Liao in a way.

He went against the Liao Emperor, for the sake of the Liao people. So he betrayed the Emperor, but not the people.

It is important to note that in the novel, after the Liao Emperor declared a ceasefire, the Liao troops were all extremely happy to not have to fight the war.

[crazy_horse]

how big was the possibility of Liao succeded in conquering Sung?

[K2Grey]

I believe it was pretty big, as the Song government sucked (as seems to be a reoccuring theme in wuxia novels), whereas the Liao empire was pretty militaristic. If XF had joined the Liao side they would have owned all. As is, they nearly owned all even though XF and half of wulin was against them. Only divine intervention in the form of Xu Zhu and Duan Yu saved Song.

[Ken Cheng]

The Khitan tribesmen had been giving the Han Chinese trouble since the end of the Tang Dynasty, but other than a few border raids, the Khitan were generally not too successful at penetrating deep into the Chinese heartland. By the time of DGSD, the Liao Empire had already passed its golden age and would fall to the Juchen tribe within a generation (Yeun Nan Akuta, the eventual founder of the Juchen Jin Empire, was a friend of Kiu Fung's). If the Khitan had then attempted an invasion of the Northern Sung Kingdom, they would by no means have been guaranteed a victory.

The waves of invaders seemed to get increasingly powerful through the centuries. The Khitan only managed to secure sixteen prefectures in the extreme northwest of the Chinese Central Plains. The Juchen were able to take everything north of the Yangtze River. The Mongols eventually got the whole thing.

[wang23]

These characters have same fate yet people praise Qiao Feng while condemn Yang Kang. In the end, Yang Kang chose Jin over Song, while Qiao Feng saved Song at the expense of Liao. What do you think?

They really didn't have that similar of fates if you think about it. I would think Yang Kang would have preferred to live if he had the choice and he would never take his own life to stop a war. Yang Kang was blinded by the power and riches of being a prince. Thus he betrayed his roots and worked to destroy his native country. Qiao Feng on the other hand thought nothing of riches and power. Once he found out about his origins, he was willing to accept the truth and accept his heritage. He was a man of honor and wanted nothing more than to see peace between the Song and Liao. Ultimately, the people of both the Song and Liao will suffer the most from war.

[Ken Cheng]

These characters have same fate yet people praise Qiao Feng while condemn Yang Kang. In the end, Yang Kang chose Jin over Song, while Qiao Feng saved Song at the expense of Liao. What do you think?

There's really no comparison here. Yeung Hong sided with the Jin Empire because he did not want to give up the wealth and privilege that he enjoyed as a Jin prince. He didn't give a damn about the Juchen people or the Han people. He just didn't want to give up the cushy life he had grown accustomed to.

Kiu Fung, on the other hand, unhesitatingly gave up not only privilege and wealth, but his very life so that both the Khitan and Han peoples could live in peace.

[CC]

The waves of invaders seemed to get increasingly powerful through the centuries. The Khitan only managed to secure sixteen prefectures in the extreme northwest of the Chinese Central Plains. The Juchen were able to take everything north of the Yangtze River. The Mongols eventually got the whole thing.

That's also because the waves of Song Courts got successively crappier too.

If Yue Fei was given free reign, he'll might have kicked the 'barbarians' right into current day Russia!

But yes, the Mongols were the hardest arse kicking pre-gunpowder army ever to charge across the earth.

[Ken Cheng]

That's also because the waves of Song Courts got successively crappier too.

True. The Sung Dynasty (in either of its incarnations) was never a military stalwart, and became less so as the years went on.

If Yue Fei was given free reign, he'll might have kicked the 'barbarians' right into current day Russia!

He was already doing fine chasing the Juchen back to the north, but I think the farther that the Sung armies got away from their central base, the less effective they would have been. The Han Chinese's advantage were always their superior home field logistics. Take away the home field advantage and they lose quite a bit of effectiveness.

But yes, the Mongols were the hardest arse kicking pre-gunpowder army ever to charge across the earth.

Even they had trouble in China, though. Most of what became known as the Mongol Empire was subjugated within Genghis Khan's lifetime. The Southern Sung Dynasty held out the longest, not falling until the time of Genghis' grandson Kublai. The reason wasn't Gwok Jing, who didn't exist on Earth-Real, but that the Mongols, undisputed masters of the cavalry charge on the open steppe, couldn't get a firm footing on how to fight in forested, urbanized, mountainous, swampy China. The Mongols needed all kinds of foreign help (from the Arabs, Persians, and even the Chinese themselves) to take China. They did finally get it, though, which is indeed impressive.

[wang23]

That's also because the waves of Song Courts got successively crappier too.

If Yue Fei was given free reign, he'll might have kicked the 'barbarians' right into current day Russia!

But yes, the Mongols were the hardest arse kicking pre-gunpowder army ever to charge across the earth.

Heard from a history teacher that the Mongols had a type of nomad that was placed on horseback ever since birth for war purposes. They were so used to horseback that they cannot walk? Find that hard to believe, maybe I heard him wrong or was daydreaming as usual...

[Ken Cheng]

Heard from a history teacher that the Mongols had a type of nomad that was placed on horseback ever since birth for war purposes. They were so used to horseback that they cannot walk? Find that hard to believe, maybe I heard him wrong or was daydreaming as usual...

Might be true. There are quite a few myths and legends spread about the Mongols (some by the Mongols themselves) to maximize their fearsome image. My favorite was always the story about why, after the invasion of northern China by the Mongols, the land (supposedly) became as flat as a table for thousands of miles: apparently, the Mongol warriors were so bloodlusted that after they had killed every man, woman, and child in their path and pulverized their bones, they did the same to every animal, plant, and inanimate object in their path. They would hack even trees and stones until they turned to dust because they were just so full of violent energy. Human beings with handheld weapons doing more damage than modern nuclear weapons.

I don't know if I *believe* all that, but it's a neat story.