Further proof that Smiling Proud Wanderer era kung fu beats DGSD/Trilogy era kung fu

[Pacifian]

Secondly, even a 4th rate SPW fighter could do a 10 feet LDA. Dongfang Bubai being 10+ times better than Yue Hou, who knows what he is capable of.

You are comparing overall fighting prowess to internal energy cultivation.

We know DFBB reigned in SPW because of his speed. LHC, another Great in SPW, became what he was because of his swordplay. The emphasis on internal training being essential for one's success in battles has diminished. By all means, Yue Hou could have been one of the better ones in terms of internal training in SPW.

[ChronoReverse]

Except his internal energy wasn't even strong enough to beat No Commandment + 6 Peach Fairies' streams in LHC body (not the full power of either since it's the streams within LHC versus an LDA). Who in turn didn't have enough energy to withstand RWX's roar. Who in turn had his internal energy stifled by FZ.

[CC]

How many people in DGSD who are 10 times worse than Li Qiushui have shown LDA capabilities?

Actually, a whole bunch of those gathered at Ju Xian Zhuang could do it.

[PJ]

Doesn't say anything.

The message is loud and clear: SPW considers elite DGSD/Trilogy kung fu to be mediocre.

[EDIT] SOA is like LDA in that it is not a technique-specific skill. A wide variety of techniques can be used to perform SOA and also LDA. By stating that SOA is mediocre in the SPW era, Jin Yong is essentially implying that SOA performed by ANY technique is mediocre. Just like if Jin Yong had said that "LDA is considered a 3rd rate act in SPW," that would mean using any technique to perform LDA would be considered mediocre in that era.

You cannot say because the Great-level fighters are using it, it means they pale in comparison with the people from SPW.

That's exactly what Jin Yong implied with his writing.

[PJ]

Actually, a whole bunch of those gathered at Ju Xian Zhuang could do it.

I didn't get that impression. Quote please?

In fact, probably the closest thing to LDA performed in the Trilogy is the palm assault launched by Yinggu of all people. Sometimes I think that LDA is overrated as a ranking factor because people like Yinggu and Yue Hou have performed it while the Condor Greats in general have not. Also, projecting internal energy to a distance of 10 feet is not that big of a deal; Huodo could manage it easily. Nevertheless, one does get the impression that LDA is a superior form of martial arts than physical contact. But if Yinggu could do it, then the Greats should definitely be able to do it. And yet, Jin Yong never elaborated the Greats as LDA experts. I think the Greats deserve more justice.

[Ren Ying Ying]

as for writing on wood, it was never said how deep the words were. they could have been scratches while in HSDS, weaker class fighters like the yuan bodyguards could make fingerprints in gold.

well, unless you interpret "深入柱内" as "scratches"...i would say the words were printed with a decently significant depth in the wood (and it was new/hard wood for that matter).

btw, gold is known for its soft, malleable texture. i would say it's much easier inprinting on gold rather than hardwood.

[CC]

I didn't get that impression. Quote please?
.

屋顶上不少人发拳出剑阻挡

Hmm ok after re-reading it, seems like my memory wasn't so good. It just said 'palm strikes', not 'Pi Kong Zhang'. I must have had that impression because in the pre-ceding line, YZH had dropped into the courtyard but those guys were on the roof. But it could be that they launched the palm strikes while he was next to them on the roof. Or because JY used 'Fa Zhang' instead if 'Chu Zhang'.

Still, its possible that when he rushed past the roof, he wouldn't have been in arm's length reach of everyone right? So those palm strikes _could_ have been LDAs? Since it was 'bu shao ren' who launched the palms.

[Pacifian]

Except his internal energy wasn't even strong enough to beat No Commandment + 6 Peach Fairies' streams in LHC body

I certainly wasn't hinting that Yue Hou's internal energy could surpass that of LHC's myriad of energies.

Who in turn didn't have enough energy to withstand RWX's roar.

LHC's internal energy was not in harmony. He was as helpless as many people without internal energy cultivation. Not to mention just hours before his fight with RWX, he fought HZG and was unaffected by his zither at all. He cannot even summon his internal energy to fight, much less use it to protect himself from RWX's roar.

Who in turn had his internal energy stifled by FZ.

Fang Zheng practised Yi Jin Jing. It might have been peanuts compared to the one in DGSD, but nonetheless should be able to grant its practitioner mighty internal energy.

[EDIT] SOA is like LDA in that it is not a technique-specific skill. A wide variety of techniques can be used to perform SOA and also LDA. By stating that SOA is mediocre in the SPW era, Jin Yong is essentially implying that SOA performed by ANY technique is mediocre. Just like if Jin Yong had said that "LDA is considered a 3rd rate act in SPW," that would mean using any technique to perform LDA would be considered mediocre in that era.

LHC's unescapable eye targets pressure points, pretty much like those of the Trilogy era. It would be silly to call it mediocre when powerful Wudang experts have succumbed under its power.

That's exactly what Jin Yong implied with his writing.

Or perhaps, that's your interpretation.

[S Beaver]

Fang Zheng practised Yi Jin Jing. It might have been peanuts compared to the one in DGSD, but nonetheless should be able to grant its practitioner mighty internal energy.

There's no direct statement or implication that the YJJ Fang Zheng practiced is any lesser than the one that appeared in DGSD. But still, it doesn't really matter WHAT Fang Zheng practiced, his energy was still higher and purer than RWX.

LHC's unescapable eye targets pressure points, pretty much like those of the Trilogy era. It would be silly to call it mediocre when powerful Wudang experts have succumbed under its power.

LHC's attack is technically considered "swordplay", not acupoint sealing.

but even if it is considered "acupoint sealing", LHC is the black sheep who doesn't care about whether he uses high tech skills or lowly skills; he just uses whatever that works. it was never said that sealing acupoints don't work, just disgraceful because it's the tactic used by 2nd & 3rd class fighters. LHC doesn't mind his fighting in the style of a street bum (which is very very low level), i'm sure he wouldn't mind using acupoint sealing even if it's considered lowly.

[Pacifian]

There's no direct statement or implication that the YJJ Fang Zheng practiced is any lesser than the one that appeared in DGSD.

Hence I used the word "might" to prevent myself getting rebuttals like "FZ practised a weaker YJJ" and so on.

But still, it doesn't really matter WHAT Fang Zheng practiced, his energy was still higher and purer than RWX.

Indeed he is, but that fact that he practises YJJ goes to show he shouldn't be far away from martial artists from the Trilogy/DGSD era.

LHC's attack is technically considered "swordplay", not acupoint sealing.

So does Dog-Beating Stick and the like. Many skills that targeted acupoints may not technically be acupoint-sealing. So the whole point of experts from Trilogy/DGSD sealing acupoints were technically using swordplay, punches, sabre-plays etc etc.

but even if it is considered "acupoint sealing", LHC is the black sheep who doesn't care about whether he uses high tech skills or lowly skills; he just uses whatever that works. it was never said that sealing acupoints don't work, just disgraceful because it's the tactic used by 2nd & 3rd class fighters. LHC doesn't mind his fighting in the style of a street bum (which is very very low level), i'm sure he wouldn't mind using acupoint sealing even if it's considered lowly.

S beaver, I wasn't even against your point here. Your whole idea of SoA being considered a *low-class* skill is the same as mine. What PJ meant was acuupoint-sealing is a mediocre skill, not befitting the likes of SPW martial artists.

So my point was *if* LHC was employing a *weak* form of martial arts, how could he win? Notice the keywords are "weak" instead of "lowly".

[PJ]

LHC's unescapable eye targets pressure points, pretty much like those of the Trilogy era. It would be silly to call it mediocre when powerful Wudang experts have succumbed under its power.

I agree with S Beaver, I think. Linghu Chong was visually attacking their pressure points but not sealing them.

Or perhaps, that's your interpretation.

I am not quite convinced by your explaination of why Song dynasty SOA would not be considered mediocre in SPW era. If I understand correctly, your explaination is that the SOA performed by Song era experts are more advanced/powerful than those of the SPW era. However Jin Yong in SPW classified ANY SOA as mediocre. And quite frankly I don't see much special about Jiumozhi's sealing of Murong Fu's and Duan Zhengming's acupoints, Or when Yideng and Huang Yaoshi sealed Jinlun Guoshi's acupoints.

[ChronoReverse]

I certainly wasn't hinting that Yue Hou's internal energy could surpass that of LHC's myriad of energies.

yadda yadda snipped

So you're agreeing that you're wrong about You Hou and that his internal energy really isn't that great after all.

[Pacifian]

So you're agreeing that you're wrong about You Hou and that his internal energy really isn't that great after all.

My quote:

Yue Hou could have been one of the better ones in terms of internal training in SPW

Hell, when did I say his internal was that great?

I didn't say anything about YH's internal being that *great*, I was implying that the people whose internal are stronger than him are *elites*, therefore it is no surprise he could be a better one.

Secondly, even a 4th rate SPW fighter could do a 10 feet LDA. Dongfang Bubai being 10+ times better than Yue Hou, who knows what he is capable of.

Also, I was also hinting that Yue Hou's internal wasn't that of a fourth rate SPW fighter in response to this question. My quotes hinted he wasn't exactly 10+ times weaker than the best.

[S Beaver]

Also, I was also hinting that Yue Hou's internal wasn't that of a fourth rate SPW fighter in response to this question. My quotes hinted he wasn't exactly 10+ times weaker than the best.

actually, fourth rate or not, i don't think DFBB being 10X better is a far away stretch. he's most likely more than three times better than RWX (top class beside DFBB), and just calculate how much better RWX is compared to the rest of them.

[Pacifian]

actually, fourth rate or not, i don't think DFBB being 10X better is a far away stretch. he's most likely more than three times better than RWX (top class beside DFBB), and just calculate how much better RWX is compared to the rest of them.

RWX could be better than DFBB in terms of internal energy, it was speed that kept DFBB going.

And here, I was talking about internal energy.

[S Beaver]

RWX could be better than DFBB in terms of internal energy, it was speed that kept DFBB going.

And here, I was talking about internal energy.

even in terms of internal energy, DFBB should still be far ahead of RWX. i'm quite certain there has been hundreds of posts in this forum already about the aspects of DFBB only using a needle tip to hold off RWX's "internal energy filled" sword.

[Pacifian]

even in terms of internal energy, DFBB should still be far ahead of RWX. i'm quite certain there has been hundreds of posts in this forum already about the aspects of DFBB only using a needle tip to hold off RWX's "internal energy filled" sword.

LHC had noted that there was *nothing* special about DFBB's internal energy, only his speed.

Instances from the novel stated that it was a once-in-a-blue-moon chance to even get in contact with DFBB, as his speed was just too fast. That paragraph which has stated the anti-DFBB fighters were charging their internal energy with full power was too short. The whole battle sounded to me as though it was a game of hide-and-seek, mainly throwing out an attack and evading. Of course, that is merely my interpretation.

In any case, I hope you/anybody can provide me with the links of such a debate, 'cause I am not thoroughly convinced with the idea that DFBB is able to withstand RWX's harsh strikes that were filled with internal energy.

[Pacifian]

I am not quite convinced by your explaination of why Song dynasty SOA would not be considered mediocre in SPW era.

It is understandable. I am not convinced by yours either. Nothing against you of course, we are standing on opposite sides at the moment.

If I understand correctly, your explaination is that the SOA performed by Song era experts are more advanced/powerful than those of the SPW era. However Jin Yong in SPW classified ANY SOA as mediocre.

I cannot believe a martial arts expert like HYS created such a reknowned skill only to have it considered "mediocre" in later generations. You might share a different point of view with me, this is, after all, not a valid point of my stand.

If you are not convinced of trilogy SoA being anymore *advanced*, (which at the same time I am quite hopeless in rendering substantial evidence with reasonable explanations) I'll leave this in the hope of somebody else doing it (if any). But I could at least be sure that SoA in the Condor Trilogy, specifically when used by the Greats, is more *powerful*. Reason stated below.

And quite frankly I don't see much special about Jiumozhi's sealing of Murong Fu's and Duan Zhengming's acupoints, Or when Yideng and Huang Yaoshi sealed Jinlun Guoshi's acupoints.

When you seal an opponent's acupoint, and you really want to *immobilise* them to prevent them from carrying out any dangerous threats to you or might cause some inconvenience, you use *internal energy*.

You do not need some fancy, flowery description of their sealing of opponent's acupoints. They are Greats, and you need internal energy to effectively block his meridian. Joining the dots, you get that when they seal enemy's acupoints, they pumped in energy that makes it extremely tough for you to release these acupoints.

Right. There might be *nothing* special (explicitly stated) in the way they seal their opponents' acupoints, techniques-wise. But how else would GX be incapable of sealing GWM acupoints, whereas HYS and YD could? If that doesn't tell you anything special in the *technique* they immobilse others, it does at least points out the most obvious reason: YD and HYS had internal energy that were miles ahead of GX, hence their success in immobilising GWM.

I agree with S Beaver, I think. Linghu Chong was visually attacking their pressure points but not sealing them.

My mistake. I thought you meant any skill that targeted acupoints, such as Dog-Beating Stick in certain cases would be considered SoA to some extent. Clearly, your boundary is kept strictly on *sealing* acupoints. Apologies for the comprehension error.

PS. Devil's advocacy at work again, eh? Your (first and second) unofficial ranking of JY characters shows that you do not really support the notion of SPW > Trilogy/DGSD. So how about handling your own argument yourself?

[yittz]

Such as ___ ?

...XF using his feet as a blackboard wiper on rock. Shooting chi. Forcefields.

I don't see what's so cheap about sealing someone's pressure point. So what are you suppose to do to win a fight? -Kill your opponent? Leech all their internal energy? Attack a bystander? Chop off your manhood? Break their limbs? Blind them?

I understand your arguement about it being nothing special (but is it special in DGSD or LOCH/ROCH, not really imo, YG did it half nude to two QZ, Wu brother tried on YG, XF did aerosil sealing?, HYS used another media to target pressure points), but cheapness can be just wuxia fashion trends.

[flyingfox2002]

PJ, can you point me to da exact passage in SOD that says pressure point sealing is a cheap technique? (I.e. gimme the chapter at least) thanks.

I don't remember much kungfu details from the novels since I don't care much for who can beat whom and who knows what kungfu, but I think in Young Flying Fox, Hufei was able to press Paijiu tiles into a table using inner power. That's a pretty impressive display of inner power that shouldn't be possible if one was to strictly follow the chronologically linear deterioration of skills "theory."

The bottom line, similar to what a previous poster said, is that JY pretty much had to write some impressive kungfus in every novel so some inconsistencies are to be expected.

The "fact" that the DGSD had a kungfu that was able to use chi as a sword, which is a skill that is unparalleled elsewhere in the JY universe "proves" that the level of martial arts was at least the highest in the known JY universe. It doesn't mean that individual fighters from the older eras were always better than their counterparts in the more recent eras, however.