LHC better than YG in sword art?

[Bangs]

I don't really think YG can beat LHC in sword skills. Afterall YG pursued his palm skills and didn't train his sword skills anymore during the 16 years separation; Post 16 years he relied mostly in his Sad Palms. LHC's main skill is with a sword so undoubtedly he could beat YG in a sword fight.

[S Beaver]

there are stances.. you learn the basics and then you forget them.. much like the taichi sword art.. that Z3F made.. if they're are no stances.. then you'd just be swinging a sword.. uh no.. no unless you have the dragon sabre, even then an agil swordsman would get you. i hardly doubt the sword is god if you dunno how to use it. You still have to learn the basics from a normal sword.. (which YG skipped because the condor thought he was more advanced) to the heavy iron, and to the wooden. After you know sword stances, you then forget them and let them come out naturally.

True it's not aout who's the best swordsman in the dark, but if he can't win without light, what kind of a swordsman is that, you're refined to just one type of match and can't compromise with your surroundings? To me that's the exact opposite of the D9S, which is wat I said in my earlier post. You're supposed to know how to compromise the opponent's weapon to know basically "how to swing the sword (briefly and then 'make it up' along the way)" and then incorporate it along the way. The fact that there was no stances is varied and just means that you look at the way to swing it and then try to incoroporate it to your own swings, hence you don't start off with the dark iron sword unless your already advanced in swords, which YG was.

i only understand half of your point here. with pokit's explanation, i can see how you may argue that LHC does not have enough experience and hence he is not fast enough to react or is able to hear the sound of the sabres comming at him. And it is true that LHC is pretty much nothing without a sword (unless he gets lucky enough to touch someone and such their energy).

But i don't see how not being able to fight without being able to see makes LHC a bad swordsman & only limited to one type of fighting (i'm pretty sure fighting in darkness is only one of dozens of different fighting environments)... Take any fighter and dig out their eyes, and let's see how they adjust. i don't ever recall YG fighting while he couldn't see...

[Allen D]

didn't YG spend the majority of the 16 yrs working on sword art? the development of sad palms was a fairly recent event.....according to roch 06

[Pacifian]

didn't YG spend the majority of the 16 yrs working on sword art? the development of sad palms was a fairly recent event.....according to roch 06

Of course not. He practised his Sad Palms in front of the waves for more than ten years

[Loke-Gao-Zhu]

definately, if LHC is having a sword duel with YG (only stances, no power) LHC can definately beat him since he doesn't have any stances, means that he doesn't have any weaknesses.

[Pacifian]

definately, if LHC is having a sword duel with YG (only stances, no power) LHC can definately beat him since he doesn't have any stances, means that he doesn't have any weaknesses.

But then again, YG learnt that stances are unnecessary, directly after his training at the waves. While using the HIS, YG only did simple moves like slashing, hacking, stabbing and so on, nothing particularly special in his moves. As a result, it could be said that there were no weaknesses as a result from the lack of any stances too.

[dracnom]

didn't YG spend the majority of the 16 yrs working on sword art? the development of sad palms was a fairly recent event.....according to roch 06

TV series are misleading, this is at the end of chapter 32:

春去秋来，岁月如流，杨过日日在海潮之是练剑，日夕如是，寒暑不问。木剑击刺之声越练越响，到后来竟有轰轰 之声，响了数月，剑声却渐渐轻了，终于寂然
无声。又练数月，剑声复又渐响，自此从轻而响，从响而轻，反复七次，终于欲轻
则轻，欲响则响，练到这地步时，屈指算来在海边已有六年了。

this quote says "spring went fall came, age and months flowed by, Yang Guo trained daily against the sea waves, training through the evenin, cold or hot weather didn't matter. The noise created by the wooden sword grew louder as he trained till it made the noise of BANG BANG, after several months, sword noise grew quite until it made no noise. He practised for several months and the sword noise gradually grew, and it went from loud to soft and soft to loud, it went for seven times, he learnt until he could create any noise, loud or sift, when he learnt to this stage, he counted his fingers and realized it has been six years."

Then the last paragraph of chapter 32 says:

某一日风雨如晦，杨过心有所感，当下腰悬木剑，身披敝袍，一人一雕，悄然
西去，自此足迹所至，踏遍了中原江南之地。

Then one dark, windy and rainy day, something stirred in Yang Guo’s heart, he placed the wooden sword at his waist and covered himself with his tattered gown. The man and eagle made their way west and from then on, made their way back into Central Plains and roamed the southern region of Jiangnan.

But nowhere in the book does it say how long YG actually trained his sword for, and it doesn't mention where he created his palm techniques and how long it took, it only says he created it during his 16 years.

[Allen D]

for some reason, the last post made me think of batman.

[duguxiaojing]

(But nowhere in the book does it say how long YG actually trained his sword for, and it doesn't mention where he created his palm techniques and how long it took, it only says he created it during his 16 years.)

He created the palms somewhere in between his 6 initial years at the southsea. It dosent say specificly, but it was after his inner power had reached a very high level. This was mentioned during his spar against ZBT. Although it was possible that YG could have developed the palm technique during one of his occasional returns, I have serious doubts because he was pretty much coming and going after his initial 7 years or so of seclusion. The paragraph i'm refering to seems to imply that YG had stayed at the south sea for a long period of time before creating the palm technique.

[Wu Wudi]

But then again, YG learnt that stances are unnecessary, directly after his training at the waves. While using the HIS, YG only did simple moves like slashing, hacking, stabbing and so on, nothing particularly special in his moves. As a result, it could be said that there were no weaknesses as a result from the lack of any stances too.

I personally think that YG got it all wrong when he thought that progessing from the heavy sword to the wooden sword was just all about increasing internal power. If swordsmanship is as simple as just swinging with alot of power, then I don't think swordsmanship would be considered the pinnacle of martial arts.
Also, there was an obvious weakness in YG's swordplay even though some say that his no stances=no weakness. YG's style is useless against anyone with a equally strong weapon or equal internal power as shown in the fight against JLFW. Personally, I think that YG might have been misled into thinking power is all there is to swordplay beause of his success with the heavy iron sword. Nowhere did DGQB said that he just used his wooden sword the same way that he used his iron sword. It is very likely that there is an even higher level than just relying on power to overcome one's opponent. LHC displayed such an ability when he lost his ability to use internal power.

JY did confirm that YG's skills with a sword weren't very good but I don't know if he made that decision before or after finishing ROCH. I think it's possible that at the time JY still thought that YG's swordplay was pretty good but after reading it some more, JY realized that swordsmanship should be about more than just swinging a sword with lots of power.

[PJ]

I forget which novel I read this from, but... in one instance, there was a swordsman whose moves only executed a small fraction of the potential of the sword art. Jin Yong explained that this limitation was caused by insufficient internal power. I therefore interpret Jin Yong's description as such: internal power is crucial for successful showcase of high-level swordplay.

Now, it may not be the ONLY route to achieving high-level swordplay, but it is ONE way, and embraced in some of Jin Yong's novels. Before SPW, Jin Yong almost always capitalized on internal energy over technique. Only in SPW did he kind of reverse that rule with Dugu 9 Swords/Linghu Chong.

[batmankiller]

I personally think that YG got it all wrong when he thought that progessing from the heavy sword to the wooden sword was just all about increasing internal power. If swordsmanship is as simple as just swinging with alot of power, then I don't think swordsmanship would be considered the pinnacle of martial arts.
Also, there was an obvious weakness in YG's swordplay even though some say that his no stances=no weakness. YG's style is useless against anyone with a equally strong weapon or equal internal power as shown in the fight against JLFW. Personally, I think that YG might have been misled into thinking power is all there is to swordplay beause of his success with the heavy iron sword. Nowhere did DGQB said that he just used his wooden sword the same way that he used his iron sword. It is very likely that there is an even higher level than just relying on power to overcome one's opponent. LHC displayed such an ability when he lost his ability to use internal power.

JY did confirm that YG's skills with a sword weren't very good but I don't know if he made that decision before or after finishing ROCH. I think it's possible that at the time JY still thought that YG's swordplay was pretty good but after reading it some more, JY realized that swordsmanship should be about more than just swinging a sword with lots of power.

Only reason YG lost to JLFW was because he was using a sword similiar to the wood sword, a stage he had not mastered yet and got owned.. if he had been using HIS (sword he mastered) no way would it have split in half like it did. And YG wasn't a total newbie at sword stances, he knew QZ and JM sword stances, he knew all about internal techs, and techniques are important in sword play. Without the proper internal energy, swinging a sword even with the greatest technique might not be able to someone who has more internal than you, down..

[MysteriouX]

Only reason YG lost to JLFW was because he was using a sword similiar to the wood sword, a stage he had not mastered yet and got owned.. if he had been using HIS (sword he mastered) no way would it have split in half like it did. And YG wasn't a total newbie at sword stances, he knew QZ and JM sword stances, he knew all about internal techs, and techniques are important in sword play. Without the proper internal energy, swinging a sword even with the greatest technique might not be able to someone who has more internal than you, down..

The wooden sword didnt break because YG had not mastered that technique, it broke because it met with a force as strong as YG himself.

The wooden sword 'technique' (in my opinion) isnt meant for direct contact attacks, it wouldn't break if it came in contact with someone who was less powerful than YG, but JLFW is as strong as YG himself so of course the weaker weapon must break.

[batmankiller]

hmm valid point.. wonder if anyone has anythgin to say to that.

[S Beaver]

The wooden sword didnt break because YG had not mastered that technique, it broke because it met with a force as strong as YG himself.

The wooden sword 'technique' (in my opinion) isnt meant for direct contact attacks, it wouldn't break if it came in contact with someone who was less powerful than YG, but JLFW is as strong as YG himself so of course the weaker weapon must break.

well, i would suppose if the wooden sword is not meant for contact, and YG pulls a "contact" move, then he has not truely masted wooden sword or "sword w/o sword" (or wahtever's its called) stage.

[Bangs]

It is a possible theory that YG's sword broke because JLFW has an equal or greater internal energy. Afterall, YG didn't reach the final stage of sword without a sword. I don't really support this theory though, because I believe YG didn't fully master wooden sword stage.

[Yeung Gor]

well, i would suppose if the wooden sword is not meant for contact, and YG pulls a "contact" move, then he has not truely masted wooden sword or "sword w/o sword" (or wahtever's its called) stage.

Wooden sword is meant to make contact, why else would you train wooden sword to cut a tree down. Wooden sword is simply the advancement of Heavy Iron Sword theories in using power to break an opponent's weapon without having to use a superior weapon. However, wooden sword is heavily base on internal power, and if one makes contact with a force equal or slightly higher in power, as MysteriousX pointed out, the weaker weapon would break. Yeung Gor's sword breaking against GWM had very little to do with his mastery but more to do with the power of GWM.

I believe the wooden sword stage is just a training phase to force the user to place all focus on generating chi into the wooden sword until they can break a tree without breaking the sword. It isn't meant for the user to go around carrying a wooden sword. But if one master wooden sword stage and uses Heavy Iron Sword, the strength of Heavy Iron Sword would be boost tremendously as compare to before where it rely on the superiority of the heavy iron sword. Combining these two phases, YG would break any weapon within first contact. Simplicity overcomes complexity. Hence, why LHC would not stand a chance against YG in a sword duel. LHC internal is weaker and his sword is no match for Heavy Iron Sword.

btw, Dugu's theories of using chi to overpower has been incorperated in Sad Palms. You might say, it's like a form of sword without sword. The sword has been replaced by his palm. Notice when YG walked along the beach, and he threw palms about, it broke a turtle's back. He realize that palm too can be as destructive as sword. So he decided to move on and develop this new idea and incorperated all the theories he had learned and use them in new ways to form all the 17 stances of Sad Palms.

[kyss of the sword]

yang guo tottally mastered wood sword level by creating sad palms. his sword broke because JLFW had also reached a conparable omnipitent level in inner power and he had a superior weapon. JLFW also had his two wheels knocked out of his hands. yang guo also improved his sword skills along with his iner power. the whole idea behind wood sword is not just advanced inner power but agile and complex moves also. yang guo guessed to defeat heavy sword, you either need superior inner power or superior agile moves. when training wood sword, YG trained till he could overcome his previous heavy sword level with a wooden sword. sad palms was a level higher because he did not need a weapon at all. it was a DGKB said, all of nature is my sword. and remember, any of DGKB skills that were passed down that FQY and LHC learnt had to originate from either yang guo and XLN or their desendents. DGKB did not leave any manuals, only the swords and training methods that the condor passed to yang guo. DG9J was probably derived from the combined hard training yang guo went after he revised everything with the complete 9yin manual. he learnt the best weapon skills in his time, including the best sword(QZ and ancient tomb), staff(OYF and DBS) and softweapons(ancient tomb). plus 9yin theories. he must have came up with a sword technique that doesn't depend on heavy inner power so XLN could use it and it must have been passed down till FQY got to learn it.

[Yeung Gor]

yang guo tottally mastered wood sword level by creating sad palms. his sword broke because JLFW had also reached a conparable omnipitent level in inner power and he had a superior weapon. JLFW also had his two wheels knocked out of his hands. yang guo also improved his sword skills along with his iner power. the whole idea behind wood sword is not just advanced inner power but agile and complex moves also. yang guo guessed to defeat heavy sword, you either need superior inner power or superior agile moves. when training wood sword, YG trained till he could overcome his previous heavy sword level with a wooden sword. sad palms was a level higher because he did not need a weapon at all. it was a DGKB said, all of nature is my sword. and remember, any of DGKB skills that were passed down that FQY and LHC learnt had to originate from either yang guo and XLN or their desendents. DGKB did not leave any manuals, only the swords and training methods that the condor passed to yang guo. DG9J was probably derived from the combined hard training yang guo went after he revised everything with the complete 9yin manual. he learnt the best weapon skills in his time, including the best sword(QZ and ancient tomb), staff(OYF and DBS) and softweapons(ancient tomb). plus 9yin theories. he must have came up with a sword technique that doesn't depend on heavy inner power so XLN could use it and it must have been passed down till FQY got to learn it.

I co-sign.

[S Beaver]

Wooden sword is meant to make contact, why else would you train wooden sword to cut a tree down. Wooden sword is simply the advancement of Heavy Iron Sword theories in using power to break an opponent's weapon without having to use a superior weapon. However, wooden sword is heavily base on internal power, and if one makes contact with a force equal or slightly higher in power, as MysteriousX pointed out, the weaker weapon would break. Yeung Gor's sword breaking against GWM had very little to do with his mastery but more to do with the power of GWM.

I believe the wooden sword stage is just a training phase to force the user to place all focus on generating chi into the wooden sword until they can break a tree without breaking the sword. It isn't meant for the user to go around carrying a wooden sword. But if one master wooden sword stage and uses Heavy Iron Sword, the strength of Heavy Iron Sword would be boost tremendously as compare to before where it rely on the superiority of the heavy iron sword. Combining these two phases, YG would break any weapon within first contact. Simplicity overcomes complexity. Hence, why LHC would not stand a chance against YG in a sword duel. LHC internal is weaker and his sword is no match for Heavy Iron Sword.

btw, Dugu's theories of using chi to overpower has been incorperated in Sad Palms. You might say, it's like a form of sword without sword. The sword has been replaced by his palm. Notice when YG walked along the beach, and he threw palms about, it broke a turtle's back. He realize that palm too can be as destructive as sword. So he decided to move on and develop this new idea and incorperated all the theories he had learned and use them in new ways to form all the 17 stances of Sad Palms.

it is possible to interpret the idea of using wooden swords to cut down trees as using more power to break down the opponent's weapons. however, if that were the case, why would dugu even bother creating a "wooden" sword stage? wouldn't that just be a "heavy iron sword stage"? i would presume that though dugu most likely incorporated his previous knowledge & theories of sword into each of his stages, his "keen sword" stage, "purple soft sword stage", and "heavy iron sword" stage still differs from each other by quite a considerable amount...thus wouldn't it make more sense that the wooden sword "theory" differ from the "heavy iron sword theory" in that it is something more than just using "force" or "power" to overcome the opponent?

LHC doesn't base this attacks on internal energy but rather the movement and postion of the sword instead. On multiple occasions, he was able to overcome the opponent without even touching the other's weapon. Thus, if YG wanted to break LHC's sword, he'll have to be skillful enough to make contact with the sword first...

yang guo tottally mastered wood sword level by creating sad palms. his sword broke because JLFW had also reached a conparable omnipitent level in inner power and he had a superior weapon. JLFW also had his two wheels knocked out of his hands. yang guo also improved his sword skills along with his iner power. the whole idea behind wood sword is not just advanced inner power but agile and complex moves also. yang guo guessed to defeat heavy sword, you either need superior inner power or superior agile moves. when training wood sword, YG trained till he could overcome his previous heavy sword level with a wooden sword. sad palms was a level higher because he did not need a weapon at all. it was a DGKB said, all of nature is my sword. and remember, any of DGKB skills that were passed down that FQY and LHC learnt had to originate from either yang guo and XLN or their desendents. DGKB did not leave any manuals, only the swords and training methods that the condor passed to yang guo. DG9J was probably derived from the combined hard training yang guo went after he revised everything with the complete 9yin manual. he learnt the best weapon skills in his time, including the best sword(QZ and ancient tomb), staff(OYF and DBS) and softweapons(ancient tomb). plus 9yin theories. he must have came up with a sword technique that doesn't depend on heavy inner power so XLN could use it and it must have been passed down till FQY got to learn it.

if "sad palms" count as mastering "wooden" sword, then that would mean GJ, HYS, YiDeng, H7G, OYF, etc have all mastered the "wooden" sword b/c they no longer need to weapons or simple piece of nature as their weapons. if by using "palms" to represent "wooden sword" stage, which is suppose to be the most advanced stage of dugu's swordplay, that would mean mr sword demon dugu is implying that palms > swords? somehow, i find that hard to believe.

also, the condor cave is a piece of info left behind by dugu, but we don't know the rest of his life or when he actually began to stay permanently in the cave at all. Thus, anything passed down to the ming dynasty does not necessarily ahve to come from yg or xln.