LHC better than YG in sword art?

[kyss of the sword]

if "sad palms" count as mastering "wooden" sword, then that would mean GJ, HYS, YiDeng, H7G, OYF, etc have all mastered the "wooden" sword b/c they no longer need to weapons or simple piece of nature as their weapons. if by using "palms" to represent "wooden sword" stage, which is suppose to be the most advanced stage of dugu's swordplay, that would mean mr sword demon dugu is implying that palms > swords? somehow, i find that hard to believe and "wooden" sword would mean much more than just "palms".

also, the condor cave is a piece of info left behind by dugu, but we don't know the rest of his life or when he actually began to stay permanently in the cave at all. Thus, anything passed down to the ming dynasty does not necessarily ahve to come from yg or xln.

first level: sharp sword.
second level: flexible sword.
third level: heavy sword.
forth level: wood sword.
fifth level: no sword.

wood sword level is comparable to the highest mastery of Dog beating stick with great level inner power. the next level that you called 'palms' is the same as 'no sword' level. no sword means you use any thing you want as a 'weapon', a stick, a stone, your bare hands. guo jing and the greats had reached the wood sword level 16yrs before the end of ROCH. yang guo had reached a high level but his inner power wasn't refined yet and he couldn't match a great without the heavy sword. it took him 6 more years of hard training to not just reach wood sword level but to advanced beyond it to 'no sword' level. 16yrs later, all the greats had improved and yang guo was in the same leauge as them. before that, yang guo without the heavy sword wasn't at the level to compete with guo jing yet. in fact, huang rong had a hard time believing yang guo could reach a level with the greats during the 'meet to elect a begger's leader' because his level sixteen yrs later was at least two levels above his level from before.

through we don't know anything else about DGKB, it is higly unlikely he left any manuals anywhere else or any disiples, because with his skills, any disiple of his would be a great or near contender during the condor trilogy, and he would have left his manuals where he left his swords. he used each sword at a different period of his life, and if he kept them together, definately he would have left his sword manual with them if he wrote any.

[S Beaver]

first level: sharp sword.
second level: flexible sword.
third level: heavy sword.
forth level: wood sword.
fifth level: no sword.

wood sword level is comparable to the highest mastery of Dog beating stick with great level inner power. the next level that you called 'palms' is the same as 'no sword' level. no sword means you use any thing you want as a 'weapon', a stick, a stone, your bare hands. guo jing and the greats had reached the wood sword level 16yrs before the end of ROCH. yang guo had reached a high level but his inner power wasn't refined yet and he couldn't match a great without the heavy sword. it took him 6 more years of hard training to not just reach wood sword level but to advanced beyond it to 'no sword' level. 16yrs later, all the greats had improved and yang guo was in the same leauge as them. before that, yang guo without the heavy sword wasn't at the level to compete with guo jing yet. in fact, huang rong had a hard time believing yang guo could reach a level with the greats during the 'meet to elect a begger's leader' because his level sixteen yrs later was at least two levels above his level from before.

through we don't know anything else about DGKB, it is higly unlikely he left any manuals anywhere else or any disiples, because with his skills, any disiple of his would be a great or near contender during the condor trilogy, and he would have left his manuals where he left his swords. he used each sword at a different period of his life, and if he kept them together, definately he would have left his sword manual with them if he wrote any.

to classify "palms/no weapon" = "no sword" level would need the assumption that dugu or Jin yong himself to consider palms an automatic higher form of art than sword, which i would highly doubt. H7G's dog beating stick was not inferior to his Palms, neither was OYF's snake staff any worse than his toad stance. afterall, even before ROCH, GJ is able to utilize palms just as well as other weapons, does that mean he has already mastered dugu's "no sword stage"? does it mean those who begin to practice fists/palms in the begining would automatically reach "no sword" stage? i don't see the logic in that. personally, i feel if dugu were to classify "no sword" as his most advanced stage, its out to be deeper than just utilizing palms and fists....

there are plenty of people with profound martial arts that don't bother to have their names sound all over the place. Lin Chao Yin's name was relatively unknown despite the fact that while she was alive, she may have been at a higher level than most greats. Jue yuan had a profound level of internal energy and yet no one knew about him. even dugu qiu bai's name was not heard of before YG finds the cave.

[Whsie]

I'm not as interested into this discussion, but....

I think those 2 are trying to say is that at a point if you can use a palm style that is beyond that of a sword, then you reached the "no sword" stage. It's a point when a finger, palm, fist's energy can surpass the limits of the sword and what kyss of sword seems to suggest is that YG's Sad Palm has exceeded that sword limit. Another explanation could probably be, if the Greats and all know sword arts, then why don't they use sword arts if they're really better? Instead, they all choose to use the palm, finger, fist, etc techniques. This could be suggesting that those are more effective since you pretty much have nothing to hold back during major fights. Look at QZ sect. In ROCH, all the disciples used swords and even the QZ 7 used swords a lot. However, look at ZBT and WCY. Have you seen ZBT EVER use a sword? No, yet he knew it because he taught it to YLQ. And though everyone knows WCY knows sword, but what is he famous for? Deep internals. When the Greats all mention WCY, they make no mention of spectacular sword level, instead they praise his internal art. In the tomb, WCY wrote to the already dead LCY that LCY only broke the weakest of QZ's art (fist, palm, sword, etc), not including internal.

Btw, about YG's knowledge. I personally think he may have surpassed LHC in DGQB's theory. First, as mentioned, in the fall, he was able to learn the most efficient and smoothest attacks without the "extras" within. Second, he was gradually understanding the formless stage at 18 and probably just expanded upon it when he saw DGQB's swords. This case was first when he tried to mix and combine all the best parts from each master he learned from when he was helping to recover JLFW. Personally, I don't feel like explaining it, but Lev once gave a good explanation.

[Ace High]

YG's sword art achieved superiority over his opponents due to his greater inner energy. Did he ever ever practically owned anybody with more or less inner power by using his sword arts?

After he was badly injured, LHC constantly fought in a condition which he can't use his internal energy what so ever. He only used his sword arts to defat his enemies. His opponents (Feng Buping, Ren Woxing) has tried to use their inner energy advantage to defeat LHC's sword, but not to avail.

HIS give its user a big advantage to its user in a fight. HIS is more compact and stronger than most of the weapons in the field. It has a better-than-average chances to break any weapon it clashed with.

LHC used a variety of weapons, none of those give him any advantages at all. Given every weapons differ from each other in terms of their handling, weight and familiarization, LHC used these weapons without any problem at all. He used Taishan's sword during the fight against both orthodox and unorthodox members. He then used a sabre (he took it from Wu Tiande) to fight Demon's Cult's pretenders during his stint as a General. Finally, Heng-shan's sword to fight Songshan's masters.

All in all, i think LHC's sword art definitly better than YG's. I see YG as a member of Qi-Branch while LHC as a member of Sword-Branch.

[Exodus]

better than YG or not, YG would own LHC in a fight witor without a sword

[MysteriouX]

YG's sword art achieved superiority over his opponents due to his greater inner energy. Did he ever ever practically owned anybody with more or less inner power by using his sword arts?

After he was badly injured, LHC constantly fought in a condition which he can't use his internal energy what so ever. He only used his sword arts to defat his enemies. His opponents (Feng Buping, Ren Woxing) has tried to use their inner energy advantage to defeat LHC's sword, but not to avail.

HIS give its user a big advantage to its user in a fight. HIS is more compact and stronger than most of the weapons in the field. It has a better-than-average chances to break any weapon it clashed with.

LHC used a variety of weapons, none of those give him any advantages at all. Given every weapons differ from each other in terms of their handling, weight and familiarization, LHC used these weapons without any problem at all. He used Taishan's sword during the fight against both orthodox and unorthodox members. He then used a sabre (he took it from Wu Tiande) to fight Demon's Cult's pretenders during his stint as a General. Finally, Heng-shan's sword to fight Songshan's masters.

All in all, i think LHC's sword art definitly better than YG's. I see YG as a member of Qi-Branch while LHC as a member of Sword-Branch.

In a way you are correct of course, however if you compared the 2 novels, the opponents YG faced and the opponents LHC faced were 2 very different sorts. The opponents from ROCH, most of them were great masters of Inner Energy, while in XAJH, though most opponents had good Inner Energy, they weren't up to the level of ROCH Greats. Those in XAJH leaned more towards sword arts. And I am sure that if YG were in XAJH, his martial arts would lean more towards sword skills then Inner Energy, and vice versa for LHC if he were in ROCH.

And please remember that these stories were written by a person, they are not historical facts, so everything depends on the wishes of the author.

[Ace High]

In a way you are correct of course, however if you compared the 2 novels, the opponents YG faced and the opponents LHC faced were 2 very different sorts. The opponents from ROCH, most of them were great masters of Inner Energy, while in XAJH, though most opponents had good Inner Energy, they weren't up to the level of ROCH Greats. Those in XAJH leaned more towards sword arts. And I am sure that if YG were in XAJH, his martial arts would lean more towards sword skills then Inner Energy, and vice versa for LHC if he were in ROCH.

And please remember that these stories were written by a person, they are not historical facts, so everything depends on the wishes of the author.

I know the Wulin environment they lived in was different. However, this thread starter asked specifically whether LHC better than YG in sword art. Therefore, it is essential to compare their mastery of the sword. To do that, we must look at the situations they use their sword. Which one is better, one who had advantages over his opponents or the one who was at disadvantage?

YG has this advantages; 1) Better internal energy, very few could match him; 2) Better weapon, could break enemy weapon on contact; 3) Years of training.
LHC has this disadvantage 1) No internal energy, which limit his movements.

As i see it, YG may have better internal energy, but IMHO LHC better in sword arts.

[Ren Ying Ying]

In a way you are correct of course, however if you compared the 2 novels, the opponents YG faced and the opponents LHC faced were 2 very different sorts. The opponents from ROCH, most of them were great masters of Inner Energy, while in XAJH, though most opponents had good Inner Energy, they weren't up to the level of ROCH Greats. Those in XAJH leaned more towards sword arts. And I am sure that if YG were in XAJH, his martial arts would lean more towards sword skills then Inner Energy, and vice versa for LHC if he were in ROCH.

And please remember that these stories were written by a person, they are not historical facts, so everything depends on the wishes of the author.

whether the environments are the same or not really doesn't affect what type of techniques are used. just b/c YG's opponents were strong in internal energy, it didn't mean that he must over power them with internal energy rather than plain technique. Likewise, LHC didn't have to use sword arts if he had to ability to overpower his opponents with internal energy.

I'm not as interested into this discussion, but....

I think those 2 are trying to say is that at a point if you can use a palm style that is beyond that of a sword, then you reached the "no sword" stage. It's a point when a finger, palm, fist's energy can surpass the limits of the sword and what kyss of sword seems to suggest is that YG's Sad Palm has exceeded that sword limit. Another explanation could probably be, if the Greats and all know sword arts, then why don't they use sword arts if they're really better? Instead, they all choose to use the palm, finger, fist, etc techniques. This could be suggesting that those are more effective since you pretty much have nothing to hold back during major fights. Look at QZ sect. In ROCH, all the disciples used swords and even the QZ 7 used swords a lot. However, look at ZBT and WCY. Have you seen ZBT EVER use a sword? No, yet he knew it because he taught it to YLQ. And though everyone knows WCY knows sword, but what is he famous for? Deep internals. When the Greats all mention WCY, they make no mention of spectacular sword level, instead they praise his internal art. In the tomb, WCY wrote to the already dead LCY that LCY only broke the weakest of QZ's art (fist, palm, sword, etc), not including internal.

Btw, about YG's knowledge. I personally think he may have surpassed LHC in DGQB's theory. First, as mentioned, in the fall, he was able to learn the most efficient and smoothest attacks without the "extras" within. Second, he was gradually understanding the formless stage at 18 and probably just expanded upon it when he saw DGQB's swords. This case was first when he tried to mix and combine all the best parts from each master he learned from when he was helping to recover JLFW. Personally, I don't feel like explaining it, but Lev once gave a good explanation

and my point here is that i don't believe the goal of dugu's last stage (no sword) is simply a palm/fist/no weapon technique. Assuming that each of dugu's stages are always rising in depth of theory, saying that his last stage is only equilavent to likes of a palm technique would imply that palms are at a deeper lvl of sword theory than sword itself. personally, i don't think palms (or the theories behind it) are any better than sword techniques in general.

of course, it would me we are comparing technqiues of the same lvl. for example, it would make sense to compare dog beating stick to 18 dragon palms since they are on the same lvl. If you were to compare 18 dragon palms with the 7 Freak's martial arts, surely you are not giving them fair competition.

Thus, it would only make sense that we see 1 deng use mostly fingers, since it highly doubtful that his other skills are up to par. ZBT's kong ming fists are on par with the best of the Great's techniques, thus it would make sense that he'll perfer it to the less skillful QZ swordplay (which WCY himself stated as weaker QZ arts). QZ was known for it's "internal arts" not it's techniques. the 7 Disicples then, had no superior techniques to rely on...thus they had to go with the best they had. H7G & OYF have both used dogbeating stick/snake staff and 18 dragon palms/toad stance interchangably. HYS...i have no idea since i really am not sure what should be considered his best technique.

About YG...i still have high doubts that even with his "sad palms" he can defeat himself with the heavy iron sword. regarding formless...formless requires mostly improvised strokes. YG actually went about "creating". if he creates, there are fixed stances & moves...thus not formless.

[Dennis Chen]

Of all JY characters, LHC and YG are the only 2 I like in terms of how they progress in martial arts.

for them, 99% of the time they dont suddenly become powerful after just finishing reading a martial arts manual, they build upon their experiences, victories and defeats and many life/death battles they encounter.

While in HSDS for ZWJ, just by studying 9 Yang for 5 years in solitude, the instant he comes out of seclusion he is suddenly a powerful fighter and is capable of defeating many skilled people who has had many more years of battle experience than him.

Studying martial arts teach you the moves, but it is through experience that you learn how to correctly apply them and when to apply them.


And LHC isnt weak, he needs time and experience to comprehand the profound meanings of the DG9J. In fact his sword skills are one of the best I have read about so far.

You're kidding right? You think ZWJ suddenly became powerful? He spent 5 years in a cave. That's not suddenly. Afterwards, he kept losing fights because he didn't have an offensive attack. It wasn't until he learned Qian Kun Da Noi Yi that he became a better fighter. And even better after he learned Tai Chi Quan/Jian.

LHC spent an afternoon with fCY and he beat Tian Boguang. You don't consider that becoming suddenly powerful? How long did LHC have between learning DG9J to the end of the book? And he was beating alot of people more powerful than him. LHC's martial arts progression is the cheap one, not ZWJ.

[Ken Cheng]

I must say that DGSD and SOD are the two Jin Yong stories in which the martial arts seem the most "gimmicky."

[PJ]

I completely agree with Dennis Chen. Linghu Chong and Yang Guo seem to be 2 of the most ridiculously fast progressers in martial arts. Especially considering the enormous gap between pre-Heavey Iron Sword & post-Heavy Iron Sword Yang Guo. He went from somebody who had trouble with Daerba to someone who could almost overcome Jinlun Guoshi! It only took him what, half a month?, to triple his power. That's pretty insane.

[Ken Cheng]

I completely agree with Dennis Chen. Linghu Chong and Yang Guo seem to be 2 of the most ridiculously fast progressers in martial arts. Especially considering the enormous gap between pre-Heavey Iron Sword & post-Heavy Iron Sword Yang Guo. He went from somebody who had trouble with Daerba to someone who could almost overcome Jinlun Guoshi! It only took him what, half a month?, to triple his power. That's pretty insane.

He had a little biochemical help with that, so it's more understandable. Ling Wu Chung's sudden growth is a bit more problematic.

[flyingfox2002]

It's probably likely that YG is the one who invented DG9J and then paid homage to DGQB by using his name. There is no way that LHC's skills during SOD is a match for YG. LHC had not even mastered the anti-palm part of DG9J.

[S Beaver]

He had a little biochemical help with that, so it's more understandable. Ling Wu Chung's sudden growth is a bit more problematic.

it was talent unleashed

[ChronoReverse]

He had a little biochemical help with that, so it's more understandable. Ling Wu Chung's sudden growth is a bit more problematic.

Interestingly enough, FCY thought the same. He was under the impression that it was quite impossible for LHC to grasp enough of even the first stance to be able to use it against TBG. Luckily he decided to try it anyways.

[flyingfox2002]

LHC could beat TBG so soon because TBG's strength laid in his speed and also because he happened to use a saber, the anti-saber style of which was either just the 2nd or 3rd level of DG9J. Countering speed with DG9J is much easier than countering powerful inner strength.

[Ace High]

and my point here is that i don't believe the goal of dugu's last stage (no sword) is simply a palm/fist/no weapon technique. Assuming that each of dugu's stages are always rising in depth of theory, saying that his last stage is only equilavent to likes of a palm technique would imply that palms are at a deeper lvl of sword theory than sword itself. personally, i don't think palms (or the theories behind it) are any better than sword techniques in general.

I agree with you. Not using any weapon does not equate superiority. It just means that guy has superb skills that using or not using weapon has no difference to him.

[RongYingMin]

IMO, the level of 'no sword' is 6 Mei Shen Jian or to say in other words: 'Overcoming a sword with no sword' means being able to constantly shoot your Qi in the form of an extremely concentrated energy beam, which is as sharp as a real sword, across a far distance to harm your opponents.
Dugu had not reached that level of Duan Yu.

[minutemanwayne]

IMO, the level of 'no sword' is 6 Mei Shen Jian or to say in other words: 'Overcoming a sword with no sword' means being able to constantly shoot your Qi in the form of an extremely concentrated energy beam, which is as sharp as a real sword, across a far distance to harm your opponents.
Dugu had not reached that level of Duan Yu.

So in your IMO, Pansy Duan Yu is better swordsman than Dugu?

[RongYingMin]

Not necessarily. Duan Yu had more potential to be a great no-swordsman than Dugu did. But he could hardly control his power so in a real fight, it's probable that Dugu would beat him within about 300 moves.
But if a manly character like Xiao Feng, Guo Jing, Huang Yaoshi, etc. had the extremely high internal energy n 6 Mei Shen Jian of Duan Yu, Dugu'd better kowtow 5 times n beg for mercy.