Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 87

Thread: LHC better than YG in sword art?

  1. #61
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    624

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kyss of the sword
    no sword means you use any thing you want as a 'weapon', a stick, a stone, your bare hands.
    Incorrect. The 'no sword' stage refers to the stage where your stances contained the essence of swordsmanship without a sword. It signifies a level which you no longer need to rely on swords to perform sword feats, and also to accomplish extreme levels of swordplay. That is, in other words, moving beyond the boundaries of swordplay as you no longer had to restrict yourself to using a sword.

    guo jing and the greats had reached the wood sword level 16yrs before the end of ROCH.
    Far from it. Just because they overwhelm swordsmen whose swordplay weren't strong enough, doesn't mean they automatically reached the stage of 'overcoming a sword without a sword'.

    Mind you that DGQB has spent his entire life on 'swordplay', the theory of simply overcoming your weaker opponents' forces with internal energy isn't something to boast of about.

    Quote Originally Posted by RongYingMin
    IMO, the level of 'no sword' is 6 Mei Shen Jian or to say in other words: 'Overcoming a sword with no sword' means being able to constantly shoot your Qi in the form of an extremely concentrated energy beam, which is as sharp as a real sword, across a far distance to harm your opponents.
    Dugu had not reached that level of Duan Yu.
    How do you know? That last sentence of yours....

    Your interpretation of 'overcoming the sword with no sword' is purely conjecture. Never was it stated in the novel that 'no sword' stage would be 'constantly shoot your qi in the form of....' and so on.

    Besides, DGQB did say he went ahead to achieve the 'no sword' stage. How is it that DY would have a greater acomplishment than him? Evidence, please?

  2. #62
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    360

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacifian
    How do you know? That last sentence of yours....
    I guess.
    Do you think a people without any falling-off-cliff-like event can easily reach the level of internal energy which Duan Yu/Xu Zhu did?
    As for 6 Mei Shen Jian, in the rare times Duan Yu could shoot his qi-sword beams, he showed that he used so-called swords to overcome his opponents, totally barehanded. Have ever Dugu been stated/described like that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Pacifian
    Your interpretation of 'overcoming the sword with no sword' is purely conjecture. Never was it stated in the novel that 'no sword' stage would be 'constantly shoot your qi in the form of....' and so on.
    Yeah, I conjectured. But what else can we do? Because JY has never stated anything about the highest level of Dugu's sword art philosophy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pacifian
    Besides, DGQB did say he went ahead to achieve the 'no sword' stage. How is it that DY would have a greater acomplishment than him? Evidence, please?
    In his posthumous words for Yang Guo, he said that he had been gradually reaching the level of 'no sword' and had still had to use 'a small branch of tree' or 'a leaf of grass'.

  3. #63
    Senior Member S Beaver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    928

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RongYingMin
    I guess.
    Do you think a people without any falling-off-cliff-like event can easily reach the level of internal energy which Duan Yu/Xu Zhu did?
    As for 6 Mei Shen Jian, in the rare times Duan Yu could shoot his qi-sword beams, he showed that he used so-called swords to overcome his opponents, totally barehanded. Have ever Dugu been stated/described like that?
    and people don't usually call themselves "Lonely seeking for a loss" for no reason either... we've never seen dugu himself in action, but only how his knowledge was used to create top rated fighters.

    conjecturing 6 mai is "no sword" stage relies too much on the "energy" factor, not the "sword" factor. duan yu could perform bits of 6 mai without previous knowledge of swords. he can continue to shoot qi out of his fingers, but it won't make him into an excellent swordsman since he still understands jack about sword theory

    Quote Originally Posted by RongYingMin
    In his posthumous words for Yang Guo, he said that he had been gradually reaching the level of 'no sword' and had still had to use 'a small branch of tree' or 'a leaf of grass'.
    gradually reaching doesn't mean he has reached the level.
    Watch out! Dihydrogen Monoxide will kill us all!

  4. #64
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    24,367

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by S Beaver
    and people don't usually call themselves "Lonely seeking for a loss" for no reason either...
    That reason could have been inadequate competition in his time.

  5. #65
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    624

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RongYingMin
    I guess.
    Even when you guess, you do realise you need to check the validity of your guesswork.

    Do you think a people without any falling-off-cliff-like event can easily reach the level of internal energy which Duan Yu/Xu Zhu did?
    What makes you think he hasn't had any falling-over-cliff event? Sweeper Monk, too, hasn't had any falling-over-cliff event (mentioned in novel). Yet, undoubtedly, he was more than a match for Duan Yu and Xu Zhu.

    As for 6 Mei Shen Jian, in the rare times Duan Yu could shoot his qi-sword beams, he showed that he used so-called swords to overcome his opponents, totally barehanded. Have ever Dugu been stated/described like that?
    Tell me. Have you ever seen DGQB's potential at his best? We hardly read *anything* about him, so it would be silly to suggest he hasn't been described as ultra-powerful, because he was hardly described at all. However, we can always look at the words written at the sword-tomb. (Although I highly believe KC will regard every word there as nonsense. Am I right?)

    Yeah, I conjectured. But what else can we do? Because JY has never stated anything about the highest level of Dugu's sword art philosophy.
    At the very least, just because you know little about it, don't start comparing it to other martial arts, unless you can back it up with reasonable evidence. Not this:

    In his posthumous words for Yang Guo, he said that he had been gradually reaching the level of 'no sword' and had still had to use 'a small branch of tree' or 'a leaf of grass'.
    That, would be his achievement at 'wooden sword' stage. The ability to perform any kinds of swordplay with any kind of sword, including leaf blades and the like.

    As he was moving towards 'no sword' level, he eventually did not require the use of any form of sword.

  6. #66
    Senior Member CC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    5,497

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacifian
    Incorrect. The 'no sword' stage refers to the stage where your stances contained the essence of swordsmanship without a sword. It signifies a level which you no longer need to rely on swords to perform sword feats, and also to accomplish extreme levels of swordplay. That is, in other words, moving beyond the boundaries of swordplay as you no longer had to restrict yourself to using a sword.

    ?
    Going a bit OT here.

    What do you guys think? If at the stage of 'overcoming a sword without a sword', one's skills still contained the essence of swordsmanship, can it be considered a 'hindrance'? Would having to be restricted to 'sword intent' and not a more universal 'intent' be a hindrance.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

  7. #67
    Senior Member Bangs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Home sweet home
    Posts
    1,628

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    That reason could have been inadequate competition in his time.
    This maybe true but why would JY create a powerful character such as DGQB with a concept as "he had inadequte competition in his time that's why he is number one in his era". I believe when JY thought of DGQB's character, he thought of someone who was more than just an undefeated swordsman but also someone who did have skills equalled by no other during all other eras.

  8. #68
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    624

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CC
    What do you guys think? If at the stage of 'overcoming a sword without a sword', one's skills still contained the essence of swordsmanship, can it be considered a 'hindrance'? Would having to be restricted to 'sword intent' and not a more universal 'intent' be a hindrance.
    The point is that the ultimate goal DGQB wanted to achieve was to reach the supreme tip in the universe of swordplay, not merely trying to seek a route where kungfu is not hindered by other stuff.

    Take the journey of swordplay as education, and sword stances and the tool sword itself as aiding equipment, say, teachers and institutions. These 'equipment' were there to assist you to ascend the mountain of swordplay. However, they eventually were of little use as you became not so dependent of them anymore. To reach further into swordplay DGQB has to discard them, as they are hindrances. But the 'sword intent' is the objective! By considering it a 'hindrance', then what are you practising all this while? It's like: to achieve further into education, you stop the process of education because education is itself a hindrance? No, that clearly isn't the way how 'overcoming the sword without a sword' works.

  9. #69
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    24,367

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bangs
    This maybe true but why would JY create a powerful character such as DGQB with a concept as "he had inadequte competition in his time that's why he is number one in his era". I believe when JY thought of DGQB's character, he thought of someone who was more than just an undefeated swordsman but also someone who did have skills equalled by no other during all other eras.
    I dislike that very concept because it makes a mockery of the Greats established in L/ROCH. All of those characters had spent a lifetime developing their martial arts to what CC and PJ would call the "peak of perfection," and this mysterious swordsman with no recorded wulin track record (except his own account) suddenly has abilities that dwarf theirs?

    That leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

  10. #70
    Senior Member Bangs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Home sweet home
    Posts
    1,628

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    I dislike that very concept because it makes a mockery of the Greats established in L/ROCH. All of those characters had spent a lifetime developing their martial arts to what CC and PJ would call the "peak of perfection," and this mysterious swordsman with no recorded wulin track record (except his own account) suddenly has abilities that dwarf theirs?

    That leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
    The same can be said about sweeper monk.

  11. #71
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    1,530

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by flyingfox2002
    LHC could beat TBG so soon because TBG's strength laid in his speed and also because he happened to use a saber, the anti-saber style of which was either just the 2nd or 3rd level of DG9J. Countering speed with DG9J is much easier than countering powerful inner strength.
    In that case, shouldn't LHC have had less problems than he did with DFBB (who was all speed) than he did with RWX?

  12. #72
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    1,530

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CC
    Going a bit OT here.

    What do you guys think? If at the stage of 'overcoming a sword without a sword', one's skills still contained the essence of swordsmanship, can it be considered a 'hindrance'? Would having to be restricted to 'sword intent' and not a more universal 'intent' be a hindrance.
    Yes. Theoretically, if what you're doing still contains the essence of the sword, then DGJ9 could still defeat you because you still have the essence of sword stances.

  13. #73
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    1,530

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacifian
    Take the journey of swordplay as education, and sword stances and the tool sword itself as aiding equipment, say, teachers and institutions. These 'equipment' were there to assist you to ascend the mountain of swordplay. However, they eventually were of little use as you became not so dependent of them anymore. To reach further into swordplay DGQB has to discard them, as they are hindrances. But the 'sword intent' is the objective! By considering it a 'hindrance', then what are you practising all this while? It's like: to achieve further into education, you stop the process of education because education is itself a hindrance? No, that clearly isn't the way how 'overcoming the sword without a sword' works.
    Based upon this, the highest form of martial arts lies in your internal power. Or rather, your enlightenment.

  14. #74
    Senior Member Surferket's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    2,484

    Default

    LHC said that even with 4 of them together they could not defeat DFBB in fair fight so had to resort to distraction. He complimented DFBB as being the best in wulin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen
    In that case, shouldn't LHC have had less problems than he did with DFBB (who was all speed) than he did with RWX?

  15. #75
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    24,367

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bangs
    The same can be said about sweeper monk.
    I wasn't exactly thrilled by that DGSD plot development either, but at least we got to see him in action rather than just kind of have to take on faith his claims about invincibility with no concrete evidence.

  16. #76
    Senior Member S Beaver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    928

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen
    Based upon this, the highest form of martial arts lies in your internal power. Or rather, your enlightenment.
    not exactly, a high level of internal power is nothing without skills to use it upon, as we have observed with Jue Yuan. Just as high skills won't do you any good without a traces of internal energy, as we see in the injured LHC. "enlightment" can refer as much to skills as to internal energy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen
    Yes. Theoretically, if what you're doing still contains the essence of the sword, then DGJ9 could still defeat you because you still have the essence of sword stances.
    Theoretically, DG9J will defeat you no matter what you do because all movement has loopholes. Formless just refers to unrestricted movements, but it doesn't mean "undefeatable" or "loophole-less". Afterall, street bum fighting is quite "formless" but it's still quite easy for any with martial arts knowledge to defeat them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacifian
    The point is that the ultimate goal DGQB wanted to achieve was to reach the supreme tip in the universe of swordplay, not merely trying to seek a route where kungfu is not hindered by other stuff.
    I agree. If having no sword means anything, then why bother practicing swords in the first place? Why not just start off directly with palms or fists, etc?
    Watch out! Dihydrogen Monoxide will kill us all!

  17. #77
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    4,215

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen
    In that case, shouldn't LHC have had less problems than he did with DFBB (who was all speed) than he did with RWX?
    DFBB had immense inner power if you didn't realize... Dunno who told you DFBB was "all speed."

    When he fought RWX, RWX did not use inner power until he knocked everyone out with a roar. They contested sword moves only.

    -------

    Also, in order to achieve the state of "being without sword better than with sword," obviously you need tremendous inner power.

    It's clear from DGQB's lineage of swords that he had reached great levels of inner power. First, he used a sharp sword as his inner strength wasn't very good. He relied on swordsplay skills and speed. Then he went to the heavy sword as his inner strength began to build. Then as his inner strength improved even further, he no longer had to rely on the heavy metal to augment his power, even a brittle wooden sword was a lethally invincible weapon. Finally, his body and everything he touched became a sword.
    Last edited by flyingfox2002; 12-15-06 at 09:43 PM.
    This account is retired.

  18. #78
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    624

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen
    Yes. Theoretically, if what you're doing still contains the essence of the sword, then DGJ9 could still defeat you because you still have the essence of sword stances.
    To begin with, the 'essence of the sword' refers to the sword intent, not the sword stances. DG9J is an example of a skill which smacks of 'essence of swordsmanship' everywhere, having focused directly on the intent of the sword and not its unnecessary companions (stances and the like).

    Sword stances are just skills people equip themselves, so as to unleash a powerful swordplay. But the sword itself, and the intent behind it are the essence of what makes up 'swordplay' in the first place.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen
    Based upon this,
    Or rather, upon your interpretation of my post.

    the highest form of martial arts lies in your internal power.
    Hardly. It depends what you view as a hindrance. If swordplay indeed was the route you want to achieve, then swordplay wouldn't be a hindrance. It is the journey, not the wall preventing you from moving forwards. In this case, internal power might be a hindrance instead. As you immerse yourself in your internal cultivation, your swordplay training and meditation (for enlightenment) time would be reduced.

    Likewise, should one want to become most domineering in martial arts, not bothering about which particular form of martial arts to use, then he/she will most likely adopt the 'internal power + some top skill' method. It is only in this way, would swordplay be a hindrance, unless the top skill is a highly profound form of swordplay.

    So to sum it all, what you view as your route to become a wulin master, as well as a hindrance, depends on your perspective.

    Or rather, your enlightenment.
    Sort of. Almost every JY character benefit markedly from a little bit of enlightenment.
    Last edited by Pacifian; 12-15-06 at 11:37 PM.

  19. #79
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    624

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by flyingfox2002
    DFBB had immense inner power if you didn't realize... Dunno who told you DFBB was "all speed."
    Not exactly immense. LHC noted that DFBB's internal energy and stances weren't particularly extraordinary.

    Finally, his body and everything he touched became a sword.
    Huh? Where did you get this?

  20. #80
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    1,530

    Default

    It's always so amazing to me. DGQB said he was the best and everyone thinks he is. DFBB could only be defeated by 3 or 4 of the most powerful fighters in Wulin and everyone thought he was the best.

    WCY said he nobody could defeat him, and we know this to be absolutely the truth. WCY couldn't even be defeated by 4 of the most poweful fighters in Wulin. And people still always find reasons for WCY to be much weaker than everyone else.

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 21
    Last Post: 05-29-10, 12:14 AM
  2. Replies: 45
    Last Post: 09-08-08, 02:53 AM
  3. Replies: 5
    Last Post: 01-29-08, 01:40 AM
  4. An example of European sword martial art
    By Battosai in forum Wuxia Fiction
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 08-23-06, 10:13 AM
  5. DFBB VS LHC + Heaven Sword
    By Temujin in forum Wuxia Fiction
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 12-05-04, 11:48 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •