Character Discussion: Lam Chiu Ying

[Ken Cheng]

I disagree with all these notion that people with power must serve the common folks, uphold justice etc.

For crying out loud, if you cannot live your own life, and must be dictated by some convention, what life it is?

For such reasons, HYS and LHC's retirement are ppl that i like for such attitude in wuxia.

Being a hero is great, but maybe not everyone's cup of tea?

They have that choice, but they won't get my admiration and respect for it.

[Athena]

I believe she died earlier, around her 40's or late 30's. The reason why I think so is because she had two illnesses after WCY isolated himself inside the tomb. Therefore LCY might've had a disease that ended her life early.

Why don't know if Lin Chaoying and Wang Chongyang were about the same age, she could be younger than him. However, I believe they were about the same age, nothing indicated that he was older than her by a lot. In fact, they were seemingly perfect for each other on areas (I think including age). By looking at Wang Chongyang's "career" he should well lived into his late 70 of even early 80 when he died. We know that Lin Chaoying died 15 to 20 years prior to the first Huashan duel so, she be late 50 or early 60 when she died.
Furthermore, with grand masters of martial arts like Lin Chaoying, Wang Chongyang, etc if there aren't any external (emotional) factors affecting one's state of mind dying at 50 and 60 is really (too) young.

By the way, I wasn't aware that I started a new topic.

[Ken Cheng]

By the way, I wasn't aware that I started a new topic.

You didn't, but your post was where the original topic (about Lam Chiu Ying's martial arts) began to change direction to this one.

[duguxiaojing]

JY hinted that LCY did have some heroic tendencies at the end of ROCH. YG and XLN found a statue of LCY and a temple built in dedication of her. YG believed that some people had built them in the honor of LCY after she had helped them. Of course people who hate LCY will proboally say that it was YG's belief and not stated directly by JY, so there is no evidence that LCY was anything more than a selfish biyatch.

[Ken Cheng]

JY hinted that LCY did have some heroic tendencies at the end of ROCH. YG and XLN found a statue of LCY and a temple built in dedication of her.

It sounds to me like something that Wong Chung Yeung did. Lam Chiu Ying was barely known to the world at large. Only Wong Chung Yeung knew her well enough and treasured her memory enough to have created something like this.

[SkyWalker]

I think LCY would be more likeable if she stood by WCY's side and helped him with what he wanted to accomplish, and that's to protect the Han pple from invaders. She may not give a damn about the rest of the world, but if she loved and respected him and wanted to be with him, then she should have put her desires aside (living w/ him in seclusion) and be someone he could trust and lean on in times of need, maybe then their relationship would've worked out for the better. I hate to compare, but HR didn't give a damn about almost anyone or anything and did ask GJ to live w/ her peacefully on the Island but eventually she was willing to sacrifice that desire to help GJ fight the mongols. If HR could sacrifice some for the person she truly loved, then there really shouldn't be any reason by LCY couldn't either. Maybe she didn't love him as much as she thought?? Some of you may even say it's unfair because the guy never seem to make any sacrifices but wuxia is a male dominated world and that was how society was then. There's no other way around it. If the woman wanted the guy, she gotta follow him through thick and thin. LCY fought against that and lost WCY and died in loneliness with nothing but bitterness to show for and some great martial arts.

[Ken Cheng]

I think LCY would be more likeable if she stood by WCY's side and helped him with what he wanted to accomplish, and that's to protect the Han pple from invaders. She may not give a damn about the rest of the world, but if she loved and respected him and wanted to be with him, then she should have put her desires aside (living w/ him in seclusion) and be someone he could trust and lean on in times of need, maybe then their relationship would've worked out for the better. I hate to compare, but HR didn't give a damn about almost anyone or anything and did ask GJ to live w/ her peacefully on the Island but eventually she was willing to sacrifice that desire to help GJ fight the mongols. If HR could sacrifice some for the person she truly loved, then there really shouldn't be any reason by LCY couldn't either. Maybe she didn't love him as much as she thought?? Some of you may even say it's unfair because the guy never seem to make any sacrifices but wuxia is a male dominated world and that was how society was then. There's no other way around it.

Well, regardless of the gender question, doing one's part to protect innocents and uphold justice is always the right thing to do. Had the situation been reversed, and it were Lam Chiu Ying who wanted to fight the Jin and Wong Chung Yeung who wanted to settle down, I would have supported Lam Chiu Ying unequivocably.

[GuGu]

She may not give a damn about the rest of the world, but if she loved and respected him and wanted to be with him, then she should have put her desires aside (living w/ him in seclusion) and be someone he could trust and lean on in times of need, maybe then their relationship would've worked out for the better.

and be second to his goal? LCY loved him BUT also knew that she didn't deserve to be second in his heart. why couldn't WCY be the one to give up everything else to be with LCY? why is it that the female has to be the one to give up her 'desires' and goals?

I hate to compare, but HR didn't give a damn about almost anyone or anything and did ask GJ to live w/ her peacefully on the Island but eventually she was willing to sacrifice that desire to help GJ fight the mongols. If HR could sacrifice some for the person she truly loved, then there really shouldn't be any reason by LCY couldn't either.

HR is a very intelligent woman, BUT her choice to be second in GJ and his goal really bothers me. She was willing to let GX be burned alive in front of her just because of GJ's words of the city is more important than GX. GJ can't protect his own daughter therefore i knew he couldn't protect that city. if YG didn't come to save GX that day, GJ would of had died with that city on that day, and there wouldn't be any HSDS. if YG was anything like GJ and fought for the city and protected the city, GX would of had died that day.

Maybe she didn't love him as much as she thought?? Some of you may even say it's unfair because the guy never seem to make any sacrifices but wuxia is a male dominated world and that was how society was then. There's no other way around it. If the woman wanted the guy, she gotta follow him through thick and thin. LCY fought against that and lost WCY and died in loneliness with nothing but bitterness to show for and some great martial arts.

EXACTLY! maybe if the woman in these wuxia stories didn't give a damn about men too much, they could of had become a great like LCY! Just imagine, if HR was to travel with her father, she would of had became a great like him! Even if LCY died alone and in bitterness, she didn't become second to WCY and his goals, and that's wonderful in my eyes. 'love' shouldn't be second to anything. i wonder, maybe WCY didn't love LCY enough to give up everything and marry LCY.

[GuGu]

Well, regardless of the gender question, doing one's part to protect innocents and uphold justice is always the right thing to do.

why is it their duty to do this? i believe that it is up to the person who has these skills to decide, they are humans too, they have feelings and wants. if they spend all their time protecting strangers and upholding justice they would be neglecting their family. they would never be able to live a peaceful life. what happens when you grow old and you retire? the grandkids of the 'bad' people you killed, to protect those innocents, would hunt you down and chop you up. if not you, then your kids and grandkids, well if you were able to squeeze in time to make a family that is. if a hero has to pay this price in the end, why would you want to be a hero in the first place? people should stand up and protect what they love themself, not wait for a 'hero' to do that for them.

[ChronoReverse]

That's why it's not easy to be a hero and to be worthy of admiration. The easy way out is to not do all that and you know what? there's nothing wrong with that.

However, one shouldn't expect to given the same accolades as someone who did do the sacrifices.

[Athena]

Wang Chongyang never chose duty over Lin Chaoying. Before the war Wang Chongyang and Lin Chaoying were fond of each other, the seeds of love were there but not to the point of madly in love YET.
It was only after the war when both of them spend a lot of them together the love grew between them. They roamed the realm together, much like young Guo Jing and Huang Rong, and/or the post 16 year Yang Guo and Xiao Longnu.
Lin loved Wang deeply and Wang loved her deeply too. Love was never an issue here. There was plenty of it. Lin Chaoying never prevented Wang to become a patriot, she never wanted to lock him up with her in the ancient tomb.
Their problem was that they never took time to understand each other, they were too busy competing with each other.
Never taking time to look into each other's souls and examine what the other party wanted.
Lin Chaoying loved Wang Chongyang, but she still wanted to prove to Wang Chongyang that she is not inferior to him. During their duels, sparring she would often pout or throw tantrums just to have an edge over Wang Chongyang. Wang Chongyang would often be bemused by these antics but in the long run, I can imagine that he would grow tedious of such behaviour. Wang would come up with a new stance when he was defeated by Lin Chaoying to win the next duel and she would devise a new technique to win the the subsequent duel.

Another point was that Lin Chaoying would become very angry when Wang Chongyang pretended not to see her hints of love. In the final conflict between them, Wang Chongyang first thought in order to prevent any further conflicts with her, I will defeat her and she will forsake this relationship once and for all. Because she proposed a final duel to settle it once and for all, if she lost she will never bother him again.
However, when he heard her saying that if she were to be defeated she will commit suicide, he reconsidered and decided to lose to her and marry her.
However, something went wrong then. Because although, he did not know how she was able to write in stone he suspected something was amiss.
And the next day he decided to become a Taoist priest after all. Marriage, relationship is all about trust. And before they were to get married, Lin Chaoying was already dishonest. How can a marriage work then? It is not surprising if Wang Chongyang felt disappointed and rather become a Taoist priest then step into a disastrous marriage. Wang Chongyang, himself is also to blame if he planned to give in then call off the duel. But he did not.

These two martial arts masters were good people, but they were also extremely proud. If either one of them was just a bit less stubborn and proud they could have been a wonderful couple.


How is this Laviathan [師伯]?

[Yeung Gor]

However, when he heard her saying that if she were to be defeated she will commit suicide, he reconsidered and decided to lose to her and marry her.
However, something went wrong then. Because although, he did not know how she was able to write in stone he suspected something was amiss.
And the next day he decided to become a Taoist priest after all. Marriage, relationship is all about trust. And before they were to get married, Lin Chaoying was already dishonest. How can a marriage work then? It is not surprising if Wang Chongyang felt disappointed and rather become a Taoist priest then step into a disastrous marriage. Wang Chongyang, himself is also to blame if he planned to give in then call off the duel. But he did not.

Why didn't Wang Chongyang give himself more time to figure out how Lin Chaoying did it, instead of acting so rash to become a Taoist the next day?

[ChronoReverse]

That wasn't the point. He already suspected that LCY cheated somehow. That's what made him change his mind.


Of course, why such an intelligent person as LCY chose to cheat in such an obvious way is beyond me.

[Yeung Gor]

That wasn't the point. He already suspected that LCY cheated somehow. That's what made him change his mind.


Of course, why such an intelligent person as LCY chose to cheat in such an obvious way is beyond me.

Even though he suspect she cheated, one still need proof. Is it wise to toss away a good relationship on mere suspicion?

[GuGu]

Why didn't Wang Chongyang give himself more time to figure out how Lin Chaoying did it, instead of acting so rash to become a Taoist the next day?

JY just needed them to break up. he was probably going through a break up or something when he wrote that.


Athena thank you so much for the clarification

However, something went wrong then. Because although, he did not know how she was able to write in stone he suspected something was amiss.
And the next day he decided to become a Taoist priest after all.

did he ever explain to her why he was leaving her to be a taoist? even if he did, imagine someone you love and also loves you coming to you and tells you that they are leaving you to become a taoist the next day. i would of had done anything to kill him. imagine what LCY felt. thanks again athena, i must now go and spit on WCY's portrait.

[sheraldine]

That wasn't the point. He already suspected that LCY cheated somehow. That's what made him change his mind.
Of course, why such an intelligent person as LCY chose to cheat in such an obvious way is beyond me.
Even though he suspect she cheated, one still need proof. Is it wise to toss away a good relationship on mere suspicion?

if i remember correctly, the word is not cheated but wit. SLL kinda explained to YG what LCY did and by sheer luck. maybe not so honorable of her part and a man like WCY just cannot point she is more intelligent than him (although inwardly he might admit but not outwardly - men! ). worst, she is already somewhat "equal" to him all in all....

[Yeung Gor]

if i remember correctly, the word is not cheated but wit. SLL kinda explained to YG what LCY did and by sheer luck. maybe not so honorable of her part and a man like WCY just cannot point she is more intelligent than him (although inwardly he might admit but not outwardly - men! ). worst, she is already somewhat "equal" to him all in all....

Interesting point, one can say she outwitted him. Of course, if LCY and WCY had not separated, YG and SLL would not have united. I guess their descendants tie the knot for them.

[Ken Cheng]

That's why it's not easy to be a hero and to be worthy of admiration. The easy way out is to not do all that and you know what? there's nothing wrong with that.

However, one shouldn't expect to given the same accolades as someone who did do the sacrifices.

I'll cosign that.

People can do what they want with their lives and their talents, but if they are unwilling to sacrifice of themselves for the good of others, then we shouldn't regard them as heroes.

[Yeung Gor]

I'll cosign that.

People can do what they want with their lives and their talents, but if they are unwilling to sacrifice of themselves for the good of others, then we shouldn't regard them as heroes.

The problem with you Ken is even if one had made many sacrifices and done many heroic deeds, you will still criticize them for not doing more. In fact, rather than praising them for what they have done, you seem to hate them more. The only way someone would gather your respect is if they sacrafice their life. At least that is the impression I get from you. It's either all or nothing, no middle ground. To me there are many types of heroes, some have done more, but all should be respected.

[Ken Cheng]

The problem with you Ken is even if one had made many sacrifices and done many heroic deeds, you will still criticize them for not doing more. In fact, rather than praising them for what they have done, you seem to hate them more. The only way someone would gather your respect is if the sacrafice their life. At least that is the impression I get from you. It's either all or nothing, no middle ground.

This is true. Heroes don't get the option of saying, "Well, I just don't feel like being heroic today. Too bad you weren't in danger last week. I was feeling heroic last week and would have done anything to save you then, but I've changed my mind. Sorry."

That would be pretty lame for a "hero," wouldn't it?

People don't get to be heroes because they do what's easy and comfortable for themselves. They do what's *hard* for themselves...what most other people aren't willing to do. A hero's commitment is not for an hour or a day or even ten years, but a lifetime. They serve until they can serve no more.

To me there are many types of heroes, some have done more, but all should be respected.

I think that respect should be commeasurate to how much they give of themselves.