Character Discussion: Lam Chiu Ying

[Athena]

Personally, I still like him more than Lin Chaoying as a person and a fictional character.

[yittz]

OT: Did LCY die before her 50s? Heartbreak? Did the book say from what?

[RongYingMin]

What a pity for Lin Chao Ying. Jin Yong was always be unfair to his female characters.
If Lin Chao Ying had lived as long as Wang Chong Yang n reached her hands on the 9 Yin Manual, she would have most likely became the most powerful fighter in the Condor Trilogy. Then beating the other Greats to her would have just been like a piece of cake.

[Athena]

OT: Did LCY die before her 50s? Heartbreak? Did the book say from what?

The novel did not accurately state what factors played a role in her death. However, hearbreak would be a factor in my opinion. She should be at least end 50 or even early 60 when she died.

[Bangs]

The novel did not accurately state what factors played a role in her death. However, hearbreak would be a factor in my opinion. She should be at least end 50 or even early 60 when she died.

I believe she died earlier, around her 40's or late 30's. The reason why I think so is because she had two illnesses after WCY isolated himself inside the tomb. Therefore LCY might've had a disease that ended her life early.

[Ken Cheng]

Personally, I still like him more than Lin Chaoying as a person and a fictional character.

Indeed. I don't know why anybody would respect/admire Lam Chiu Ying at all. From what we saw of her, she behaved like a spoiled child most of the time. She strikes me as a much more intelligent Gwok Fu with Greats level martial arts, but the same kind of selfish, petty, and vindictive personality.

[PJ]

Indeed. I don't know why anybody would respect/admire Lam Chiu Ying at all.

Let's not forget, Lin Chaoying had good intentions from the beginning. She is the person who spent 7 days 7 nights cursing nonstop in a successful effort to bring Wang Chongyang out of seclusion. If not for her effort, who knows what would have become of Wang Chongyang, his Quanzhen Sect (which may not even exist any more), and the rest of the Condor Trilogy. Lin Chaoying played a key role in shaping the foundation of the Condor novels.

[Ken Cheng]

Let's not forget, Lin Chaoying had good intentions from the beginning. She is the person who spent 7 days 7 nights cursing nonstop in a successful effort to bring Wang Chongyang out of seclusion.

But did she do that out of genuine concern for his future and the future of wulin, or did she do it only because she wanted to see him again?

Lam Chiu Ying has never shown to me that she thinks about anybody other than herself.

[JamesG]

But did she do that out of genuine concern for his future and the future of wulin, or did she do it only because she wanted to see him again?

Lam Chiu Ying has never shown to me that she thinks about anybody other than herself.

That temple YG and XLN found on the Jade Maiden peak at the end of ROCH might indicate that there was more to Lin Chaoying than the book tells.

[PJ]

But did she do that out of genuine concern for his future and the future of wulin, or did she do it only because she wanted to see him again?

Lam Chiu Ying has never shown to me that she thinks about anybody other than herself.

　　郭靖一怔，答道：「重阳祖师是你师父，是全真教的开山祖师，当年华山论剑，功
夫天下第一。」丘处机道：「那不错，他少年时呢？」郭靖摇头道：「我不知道。」丘
处机道：「『矫矫英雄姿，乘时或割据』。我恩师不是生来就做道士的。他少年时先学
文，再练武，是一位纵横江湖的英雄好汉，只因愤恨金兵入侵，毁我田庐，杀我百姓，
曾大举义旗，与金兵对敌，占城夺地，在中原建下了轰轰烈烈的一番事业，後来终以金
兵势盛，先师连战连败，将士伤亡殆尽，这才愤而出家。那时他自称『活死人』，接连
几年，住在本山的一个古墓之中，不肯出墓门一步，意思是虽生犹死，不愿与金贼共居
於青天之下，所谓不共戴天，就是这个意思了。」郭靖道：「原来如此。」
　　丘处机道：「事隔多年，先师的故人好友、同袍旧部接连来访，劝他出墓再干一番
事业。先师心灰意懒，又觉无面目以对江湖旧侣，始终不肯出墓。直到八年之後，先师
一个生平劲敌在墓门外百般辱骂，连激他七日七夜，先师实在忍耐不住，出洞与之相斗
。岂知那人哈哈一笑，说道：『你既出来了，就不用回去啦！』先师恍然而悟，才知敌
人倒是出於好心，乃是可惜他一副大好身手埋没在坟墓之中，是以用计激他出墓。二人
经此一场变故，化敌为友，携手同闯江湖。」

After Wang Chongyang suffered defeat by the Jin empire, he went into seclusion and vowed to never to come out to live under heaven with the Jins. During his 8 years in seclusion, friends and family alike came by and tried to pursuade him to come out of seclusion so that he may use his talent to make a difference, but Wang Chongyang listened to no one. Finally, one of Wang Chongyang's past enemies drove him nuts by strategically cursing at him from outside the tomb for 7 days 7 nights nonstop, forcing Wang Chongyang to step out of the cave (unable to endure the massive cursing on such sweeping scale). When Wang realized that Lin Chaoying did this out of GOOD WILL and RESPECT for Wang Chongyang's talent (stated in the novel by Jin Yong), their previous animosity dissolved, and a new friendship was born.

Please consider this: Wang Chongyang was determined to spend the rest of his life in seclusion, feeling ashamed for having been defeated by Jin power. He was going to waste all his talent in a little hole. Lin Chaoying, as an enemy of Wang Chongyang, recognized his talent and did not want to see this it perish in vain, so she devised a strategy to force him out of seclusion, and the plan succeeded. Her behavior at this time is actually quite nobel in my opinion. Suffice to say that if Lin Chaoying had not interferred, chances are good that Wang Chongyang would have dedicated his life in seclusion forever, unable to pass on his lifelong expertise.

Later, it is stated that Lin Chaoying did have romantic interest in Wang when they were enemies. However, her effort to bring him out of seclusion was an act of compassion and goodwill, at least in part.

So, to answer your question, Yes: Lin Chaoying did do that out of genuine concern for Wang Chongyang's future and the future of the martial world.

[yittz]

Another OT sorry:

XLN's no emotion style kungfu, I thought it was developed my LCY. Did LCY not practice it? Surely that type of kungfu would extend one's lifespan.

LCY's maid seemed to live a lot longer than LCY.

[sheraldine]

Indeed. I don't know why anybody would respect/admire Lam Chiu Ying at all. From what we saw of her, she behaved like a spoiled child most of the time.

pls indulge me this question, ken, why do have this negative opinion at those who chose seclusion or those stayed away from wulin? in those days, people practised freedom of choice and if LCY wanted to sulk in the lonely tomb, it is no one's business but her own after all, she is all ready to be proposed and dream of being married but the man chickened out , (well, sort of since he chose duty over love) what else for her to do except silence is golden, thus her seclusion. now, how is that for a logic? actually i wasnt a fan of LCY, but like DGQB, she has this air of remoteness and aura of loneliness that drew people like me to her mysteriously.

as for her dying young, i think SLL mentioned something about her grandteacher's poisoned being to YG when they read the letters that WCY send to LCY. But i wasnt clear on that part.

[Bangs]

as for her dying young, i think SLL mentioned something about her grandteacher's poisoned being to YG when they read the letters that WCY send to LCY. But i wasnt clear on that part.

If youre referring to OYF's attack then that person would be XLN's teacher, not LCY.

I for one loves privacy and seclusion, I tend to stay away from crowds and gatherings so I am clearly drawn to people like LCY whose personalities I can very much relate to coz I understand how they felt. (Of course I also do have lots of friends, I only avoid strangers and family gatherings).

[sheraldine]

[QUOTE=Bangs]If youre referring to OYF's attack then that person would be XLN's teacher, not LCY. [QUOTE=Bangs]

no, not that i am sure but there was one part the letter WCY writing to LCY, ".... i get it for you, it can cure your illness..." i might be mistaken, but something to that effect. QYF was another part, and i think and there wasnt much line to describe the scene.

[Ken Cheng]

pls indulge me this question, ken, why do have this negative opinion at those who chose seclusion or those stayed away from wulin? in those days, people practised freedom of choice and if LCY wanted to sulk in the lonely tomb, it is no one's business but her own

Maybe I've just read too many comics growing up, but I do believe in that old superhero adage of "with great power comes great responsibility." I do believe very strongly that those who are gifted with special abilities that can benefit humanity are morally obliged to use them for that purpose. I also believe that this is a lifelong commitment that should not be abdicated. To have a special talent, especially one that can benefit many people, but to use it self-servingly or not at all, is a waste of a precious gift. It is an individual's prerogative to use that gift as he/she sees fit, but if he/she doesn't use it altruistically, then I don't feel any particular inclination to view such an individual as a "hero" worthy of admiration.

[sheraldine]

"with great power comes great responsibility."

great responsibility brings along grave sacrifice....

it was tragic for both of them. although she sulked and spat at his picture, she kept her wedding stuff and his letters....

I do believe very strongly that those who are gifted with special abilities that can benefit humanity are morally obliged to use them for that purpose. I also believe that this is a lifelong commitment that should not be abdicated. To have a special talent, especially one that can benefit many people, but to use it self-servingly or not at all, is a waste of a precious gift. It is an individual's prerogative to use that gift as he/she sees fit, but he/she doesn't use it altruistically, then I don't feel any particular inclination to view such an individual as a "hero" worthy of admiration.

i see your point of view, but then when a man is disappointed, he didnt even want to face the world, let alone playing hero. so he retreated..... when a woman is feeling abandoned, she doesnt even want pity, let alone admiration. so she withdrew...

so let put it this way, she created the stroke to fight side by side with WCY, then in her anger and vindictive side, she set them against Quenchen skill... o mortal, what is love.....? heck, i forgot the next line....

[Ken Cheng]

Interestingly, just a few nights ago, I watched the Richard Donner cut of SUPERMAN II, which really explored this theme in depth. Superman chose to give up his great powers so that he could spend the rest of his life in solitude with Lois Lane. His father, Jor-El, told Kal-El (Superman) that it was a mistake, and that he would regret it. Superman did not listen to his father and surrendered his powers so that he could be with Lois. At the same time, three Kryptonian supervillains attacked Earth, killing many people and enslaving the planet. Upon discovering this, Superman regretted his decision and went back to his father for a second chance to make things right. He knew it meant he could never be with Lois, but he also knew he could not let the people of Earth down. He did what a hero needed to do.

[sheraldine]

He knew it meant he could never be with Lois, but he also knew he could not let the people of Earth down. He did what a hero needed to do.

yes yes yes.... duty before love is what a hero do.... then what? i bet hero will later say to his companion/disciple/etc etc, "loneliness is a man's greatest enemy"
ok ok, bit off topic... sorry sorry, (ken, r u guilty of this?).... now, back to LCY skill, anyone?

[yittz]

I don't think LCY ever wanted to be a hero. She just wanted to impress WCY and hence marry him. Funny WCY is already very impressed and wasn't looking to be rubbed around in defeat.

I agree that great power brings great responsibility. A person who does good with his power deserves to be praised, and be called a hero, but if a person does not wish to wave their power around to protect weakers, then s/he should not be criticised for not going around doing charity work, as long as not using it for evil. Great power should not be a great liability if one wants to live for themselves not for others and be a public servant. Some people enjoy helping others while some just wish to live their own life and not be dictated by social image.

Also, in comic books, power usually come with a freak accident - it's almost you are gifted because of god. In wuxia, many cases power comes with effort, so they earned it rather it was gifted to them. I respect GJ/WCY/Wudang for taking an honourable stand to protect others, but do not blame HYS/YG/ZWJ/LCY for living their life the way they see it, and respect that decision.

Edit: Yeah ramblings sorry, 3 OTs by me, now we really diverged - new thread?

[Han Solo]

I disagree with all these notion that people with power must serve the common folks, uphold justice etc.

For crying out loud, if you cannot live your own life, and must be dictated by some convention, what life it is?

For such reasons, HYS and LHC's retirement are ppl that i like for such attitude in wuxia.

Being a hero is great, but maybe not everyone's cup of tea?

Han SOlo