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Thread: Gwok Jing/Yeung Gor and the matter of revenge

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    Senior Member dbx's Avatar
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    Default Gwok Jing/Yeung Gor and the matter of revenge

    Here is a similarity in the ROCH/LOCH saga that seems to elicit a very different response from folks. It was brought up in another thread recently. I didn't want to go off topic even more in that thread.

    Guo Jing wanted to kill Huang Yaoshi after thinking that he killed his masters.

    Yang Guo wanted to kill Guo Jing/Huang Rong after thinking that Guo Jing kill his father.

    Yet Yang Guo gets a bunch of flak for this where as Guo Jing receives little flak.

    Both Huang Yaoshi and Guo Jing/Huang Rong did things which added to the hostile parties suspicion.

    Huang Yaoshi didn't particiularly like Guo Jing and Huang Rong didn't particularly like Yang Gao and actively caused trouble for the respective parties.

    Yet Yang Guo's actions are viewed as "Evil" and Guo Jing's mission passed by.

    Is there a double standard? Is Guo Jing evil too? Is he hotheaded too?
    He did try and cut of Guo Fu's arm and threatened to kill Yang Guo for his love. This is not a singular event of a stable person. It seems like a pattern of instability... and perhaps.... "EVIL"

    Is Guo Jing evil? Obviously I don't think so, but if judged based on Yang Guo's actions being evil, is he?
    "I only scold dogs, not people."

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbx
    Yet Yang Guo's actions are viewed as "Evil" and Guo Jing's mission passed by.

    Is there a double standard? Is Guo Jing evil too? Is he hotheaded too?
    He did try and cut of Guo Fu's arm and threatened to kill Yang Guo for his love. This is not a singular event of a stable person. It seems like a pattern of instability... and perhaps.... "EVIL"

    Is Guo Jing evil? Obviously I don't think so, but if judged based on Yang Guo's actions being evil, is he?
    It is an interesting question. However, based on my personal feeling without any deep thinking, I feel ok with GJ's action but I don't feel right with YG's action. This is my instinct say and I usually find the my instinct is something that I can trust on. So...there should be reasons behind this. In following, I will try to give a 5-part analysis of what I think based on what happen and GJ & YG ' response with situation and possible response if they switch role. Note that it will be long so I cannot finish it in one response.

    OK, let me begin,


    Part 1. GJ's action based on GJ's incident:

    Let summarize what happen to GJ in time order as follows,

    - first, GJ learn the bad news from his teacher (the leader of 7 freaks - I forget his name but will refer as the 1st freak)

    which GJ was still good with HR and think it is just a misunderstanding and plan to clear it out after meeing HYS.

    - then, GJ found the death at peachblossom island

    which, based on his investigation + some apriori information, he assume that HYS is the killer. Then, at first, GJ want to kill HR but decide not to do because of his love for her (also HR is not HYS who he think to be the killer). However, GJ decide to cut his tie with HR.

    - then, GJ join the 1st freak for the revenge. GJ know that HYS will fight with the 6 QZ leaders (will be refered as 6QZ) about the revenge of one of the QZ leader. So, he join them...however, GJ know that the QZ revenge is a misunderstanding, i.e., it is not HYS's fault and GJ told them (i.e., he didn't try to hide this information in order to gain more people on his side).

    After 6QZ learn the fact, they still decide to help GJ fight HYS. Note that GJ decide to have an obvious (i.e., not hidden) fight with HYS for his revenge. I don't remember GJ pursue 6QZ to help him that much but, instead, 6QZ decide to help him. Both GJ and the 1st freak decide to have a "honour" fight with HYS to death although they cannot win the fight.

    - then, before the fight begin, GJ met HYS and declare his revenge in front of HYS. GJ wait for the fighting time. H7G join the scene. Since he know HYS better than anyone (except perhaps OYF), he try to ease the problem (especially between HR and GJ). Well, through his pride, HYS didn't refuse the killing since he don't care about what others think (although HR did try to ask him to refuse to ease GJ's feeling). However, GJ did somewhat listen to H7G and not try to push his emotion to HR too hard.

    - then, the fight begin, it was proven that GJ + 6QZ with big deeper formation can give HYS trouble. However, the fight was interupted through the attack of the Jin army. Regardless about the revenge, the 1st freak did help HYS out of the situation (since everyone has trouble to see through smoke except him). It is the pride of the 1st freak that he will not use a dirty way to gain an upper hand on HYS. As the result, HYS almost accept that he didn't kill his brothers/sister but decide to hold back because of the 1st freak's rude behaviour.

    - then, everyone get lost from each other and the 1st freak end up with HR hiding in the temple while YK's group end up there. There was a moment that the 1st freak think he can (hiddenly) kill HR but he didn't do (if I remember correctly) since it is too dirty for him to do. And, with her intelligence, HR can eventually clear HYS's name from the murder and find the real killer which is YK (while the 1st freak listen to the investigation).

    - finally, GJ met the 1st freak and the truth was revealed...case was closed.


    INPORTANT NOTE:

    While GJ want to get his revenge, GJ and the 1st freak act openly. GJ let everyone know who he and the 1st freak think is a killer. No hidden agenda. They fought HYS openly for the revenge. Because everyone know about the revenge, there were many people try to help out the situation in their own way. For example, 6QZ help GJ for the fight (i.e., GJ will not lose the fight so quick...even gain an upper hand to HYS). H7G try to ease the situation and may help the investigation as well if HR didn't have any success. If everything go worse, HYS may decide to reveal it himself since it was related to HR (his lovely daughter)'s life anyway. Also, even though the 1st freak has a bad temper, he didn't act so stupid like stab someone back. He was too proud to do so...the was helpful to buy sometimes for others to figure out who is the real killer (note that everyone know that he and GJ try to get their revenge).


    OK, finish the 1st part. The 2nd part is about the summarize of YG's action based on YG's incident and hopefully coming soon.

    Please feel free to give me your comment.

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    Senior Member redfirefly124's Avatar
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    Wow Wu Xing...you are a very going analysist (sp?)...
    Great Job!
    ~redfirefly124

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Xing
    INPORTANT NOTE:

    While GJ want to get his revenge, GJ and the 1st freak act openly. GJ let everyone know who he and the 1st freak think is a killer. No hidden agenda. They fought HYS openly for the revenge.
    That hits the nail pretty squarely on the head there. Both Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor misidentified the targets of their vengeance, but only Yeung Gor considered cold-blooded murder as an option (and one of his would-be victims was a pregnant woman at that).

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    Wu Xing, your 1st analysis is very meticulous.
    Wait for the 2nd part of yours.
    ===============================
    IMO:
    - Guo Jing's masters are Xias whereas Yang Guo's father, Yang Kang, is an extremely abject traitor. So I don't feel too unpleased with GJ's superficiality in his case.
    - As Wu Jing wrote in his post: Guo Jing did everything in a straight way.

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    Senior Member dbx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    That hits the nail pretty squarely on the head there. Both Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor misidentified the targets of their vengeance, but only Yeung Gor considered cold-blooded murder as an option (and one of his would-be victims was a pregnant woman at that).

    As Guo Jing contemplated murdering Huang Rong as well, that would have been a completely innocent person.

    Here is the other thing... Yang Guo could have let Guo Jing die, at the point that Guo Jing was fighting to protect Xiang Yang, if he did not save Guo Jing, what would have happened? I have been hard-pressed to believe that Yang Guo would have had the cold-heartedness to actually stab Guo Jing.

    Also althrough he contemplated cold blood murder, it's been show that his righteousness always stayed his hand.

    "The candlelight in the room had gone out long ago but Yang Guo had the ability to see things in the dark. When he was about to thrust the dagger, he glanced over at Guo Jing’s face. There was a peaceful expression on his face and he was in a deep sleep; all the love that Guo Jing shown him when he was younger suddenly surfaced in his heart. How he treated him lovingly on the Peach Blossom Island; how he took him all the way to Mount Zhongnan to learn martial arts; how he betrothed his only daughter to him. He couldn’t stop himself from thinking, “Uncle Guo is a straight and honest man; he is an extremely sincere and kind person; he cannot be the person who killed my father. Could it be that Sha Gu was confused and was talking rubbish? If this knife goes forward and kills an innocent man, I won’t be able to redeem this with ten thousand deaths. I’ll wait; I need to make sure.”

    He put away his dagger slowly and thought about all the things that had happened since he’d met the Guo couple; pondering over every single memory. He remembered how Huang Rong always felt uneasy with him around; there were many times when she and Guo Jing were talking about something but would immediately change the subject once she saw him. There was no question about it; the couple was keeping something from him."

    This is exactly what he did when Guo Jing was asleep. He held his hand so he could investigate further. You also have to realize that holding his hand is akin to killing himself and XLN, at this point he and XLN has been poisoned.

    After this Guo Jing and Huang Rong had a conversation where they basically voiced that they "wanted" to kill Yang Guo's father.

    Now revenging one's father is certainly not a evil act especially when more or less confirmed by the supposed perpatrators. Sha Gu's revelation was only the first part of his actions.

    "How would he know that when he was talking to his wife, Yang Guo was hiding behind the pavilion and heard every single word they said? When Guo Jing returned to the inner halls with his wife, Yang Guo stood there in a daze. His mind was repeatedly going over what Huang Rong had said, “I just wished that I killed him earlier… his father died from poison as a result from striking me on the shoulder… both of us had the thought of killing him in our minds and in the end he did die because of me.” He thought, “There’s no more doubts, my father died because of the two them. Huang Rong is really wily; she’s already suspicious of me. If I don’t make my move today then I don’t think I’ll ever get another chance like this.” He then returned to the room and slept on the bed quietly, waiting for Guo Jing to return."

    This is very damning evidence from the horse's mouth. And it directly implicated Guo Jing and Huang Rong were directly involved in Yang Kang's death. Sha Gu only started Yang Guo's journey, but it was Huang Rong's own admissions.
    Last edited by dbx; 12-21-06 at 12:21 AM.
    "I only scold dogs, not people."

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    Senior Member dbx's Avatar
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    Guo Jing did actually "murder" many innocent and possible pregnant people for Genghis Khan, he and Huang Rong helped Genghis Khan win many battles and take the city of Samarkand. For his vengence of his father, he was involved in the death of many in his city. His heroic nature did show itself, but only after the death had begun and many innocent lives were lost.

    For his vengence, many innocent people "actually" died. Repentant or not, ignorance is no excuse? Or is it.
    Last edited by dbx; 12-21-06 at 12:31 AM.
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    Senior Member dbx's Avatar
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    Oh yea, I certainly don't consider either Guo Jing or Yang Guo "evil". Their actions were well within reason and any of the negative feelings towards these two heros is often constructed of straw, they certainly made mistakes and could have stumbled down the wrong path. That is what make their stories compelling.

    I just think people tend to remember things a little less clearly when discuss a character or personage they do not particularly like.
    "I only scold dogs, not people."

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    [/QUOTE]Is Guo Jing evil? Obviously I don't think so, but if judged based on Yang Guo's actions being evil, is he?[/QUOTE]

    GJ is not evil (no evil bones in him, only cracked one ), but quite dumb and very straight. for him, white is white, black is black, no grey area at all. right is right, wrong is wrong, no hold on or wait!... you get me? so for him, vengence is vengence.... no evil thought, just vengence.... hmmm, vengence after vengence, when will IT end?


    YG's character is pretty complicated, and sometimes much too strong willed for his own good. why cant he just be a quiet boy or mild lad? i am not yakking and yaddaing here but since i am quite boring for a while, might as well write something annoying to pass as my enjoying day....

    GJ should be a father figure or at least, play guardian to YG but didnt, instead the hero send the lad off to that shrine for the better only to whole intention turning out worst... what happened, YG ran off and found SLL for me, for some readers... to go on that would be off topic.... so, back to thread.

    as a smart woman and a brilliant person, HR should be fair and just to YG but instead she chose to spoil her precious daughter and favour the stupid brothers. what happened, she wasnt an impressive character in YG's eye - mine including she should nurtured the children ties, but didnt. should encourage their childhood bond, again she missed. Estrangement grew for her from him, negative point for her from me.

    For someone who wanted to harm GJ who is a trustworthy fella and ignorant about scheming, YG could strike when the right moment, but that exact moment YG save GJ's skin more than necessary..... YG should have leave HR deals with her problem and charges, again YG came to rescue her auntie's hair and her ladyship's flesh, and oh, saving those stupid idiots' arses as well.... what happened? still, YG didnt do enough, and HR still choose to misunderstood YG whenever he reunited with SLL and whatever he did for the Guo's family.

    GJ objected YG union with SLL, hmmm.... i neither object or approve.... then, HR did her little part to separate SLL and YG in an arty speech and moral craft, hmmm.... well, she has her point but i wonder how she was feeling when her own father objected GJ. fine, that is another story and different subject altogether. BIG DEAL, HYS once well quoted on her famous daughter.... in the end, HR admitted YG did more than she ever expected of the traitor's son.... GJ a hero, oh yesssss never mind he has his faults while his wife the forever clever and shrewd one to save his neck and limb.... GJ evil, nahhhhh! YG evil? i would say devilish... YG a hero? i say he's one kinda lonely wanderer and roaming one-armed adventurer with a condor friend.... you know, sometimes an animal is a better company than any human.... well, only sometimes....
    Last edited by sheraldine; 12-21-06 at 01:31 AM.

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    Before I start part 2 of my analysis, I have to say that my memory of ROCH is worse than LOCH. This is because I like LOCH more and read it many times. As I remember, I read the whole 2nd-ed LOCH about 3 times and a few sections many times while I read the whold ROCH only one time but there are a few parts of ROCH that I read many times as well especially the GX's infamous birthday event. Anyway, please correct me if I'm wrong. So let begin.



    Part 2. YG's action based on YG's incident:

    Let summarize what happen to YG in time order as follows,

    - first, YG know (almost) nothing about his father's death from his mom.

    - since YG met GJ/HR until meeting XLN, he just know that GJ and his father were sworned brothers. He still didn't know anything about his father's death and no one try to mention (or avoid) this topic to him. At this time, he didn't like HR since he thought she wasn't fair with him. Although he did like GJ, he still think GJ didn't have a good intention to bring him to QZ temple.

    Note that he was not opened himself to others and be very protective to himself pretty much.

    - since YG met XLN, I think he feel that he can open himself to XLN (not quite easy at first, I think) but through time everything seem to be well until his curiousity of the outside world and LMC came to see her kungfu sister.

    At this point, he think, in the world, only XLN, OYF and GJ were good to him.

    - Until the 1st separation from XLN (after XLN declare that she want to marry with him), YG didn't think much about how his father died and his father's image in his mind is a hero equal to GJ (or better since he believe his father should be smarter than his uncle Guo regardless the incident with beggar clan -- not so sure that happen in the novel or just the TVB thing, I forget).

    Yes, he was flirting like crazy after this 1st separation (just kidding ).

    - At the 1st hero meeting (that GWM has his 1st appearance), YG's relationship with HR getting better. GJ plan to propose YG/GF married. YG still didn't think much about how his father died and his father's image in his mind is still the same (although I'm not sure whether there was any hint about his father things to YG but, as I remember, YG didn't recognize anything yet).

    I think this time has the best relationship between YG and HR in the novel.

    - YG announced that he want to marry XLN. GJ against it which creates conflict between GJ and YG. YG/XLN leave but turn out to help HR & co. With "good" intention, HR suggest XLN not to marry YG. At this 2nd separation from XLN, YG has his conflict with GJ and HR due to the married thing and the cause of XLN leaving. Still, YG didn't think much about how his father died.

    This causes the 1st conflict (probably the only conflict) between GJ and YG while the relationship between HR and YG getting worse again.

    - The first time that he start his interest on his father's death, if I remember correctly, was when he met Sor Gu (sp? - will be refered as SG) after he joined the 2-cousin girls and then met HYS. This was because SG show her fear to YG due to his face was quite similar to YK. Since YG think SG know something about his father's death, he pursue her to find the truth regardless HYS's suspicious behaviour that try to prevent him investigating SG. Eventually, through her fear, SG revealed that HR was responsible for his father's death. YG believe this information since he also feel that HR (in the young day) didn't trust him and, of course, she was just the cause of the 2nd separation from XLN.

    Well, can't say YG was wrong but it seems like he didn't try to talk "openly" about this topic with HYS who YG also suspect that HYS know thing about his father's death. Perhaps, especially aftering hearing from SG, he think GJ/HR was the cause of his father's death and he didn't trust HYS about this issue (or afraid to talk openly to him - I'm not so sure). I forget the details during this period.

    - So, the revenge mission start. First YG join GWM's group. Then reunion with XLN in passionless valley (? - not sure about the name but I will use this name from now on). Getting poison in the valley and take a mission to kill GJ/HR for the poison antidote.

    Well, I have to accept that I feel uncomfortable reading this part. Yes, YG plan to take his revenge as GJ also did. But their methods were not the same. YG may think that he cannot do a straight direct fight since GJ was too strong and HR was too smart. He dicide to commit assasination. Although this is understandable, but it is not right. Understandale move and the right move are not the same, in my opinion.

    - Now, YG/XLN went back to see GJ/HR. There were many things that happen during this assasinated attempt period. First, YG overheard GJ/HR discussion about YK's death and he think it confirmed what he belive (i.e., GJ/HR were the cause of his father's death). YG did a few attempts to kill GJ. Note that he plan to kill GJ first and then HR, if I remember correctly, since he think HR was too smart but if he can get rid of GJ, HR's smartness cannot help her since her physical condition was pretty weak at that time.

    First, he tried to kill GJ when they sleep on the same bed but fail (we know what happen). Then, he think about killing during the battle with Mongol (which he can let GJ died about the arrow exchange with GWM) but instead save GJ's life due to admiration of GJ's (extraordinary if I may say) heroic act. Then, when GJ's not-so-smart students was caught at Mongol camp, YG plan to kill GJ at the Mongol camp (which he can kill GJ). Yet, it turn out that he decide to save GJ again (after being the cause of GJ's injury - roughly speaking) due to, again, admiration of GJ's another (extraordinary if I may say) heroic act.

    It seems like after coming back from Mongol camp, YG didn't plan to kill/assasinate GJ/HR anymore. I "guess" (since I don't remember) that YG think GJ was too good to be on the wrong side. If GJ/HR kill his father, he may feel that the reason had to be good at least deeply in his mind. And since he kinda worship his father, he basically avoid his thinking about this topic. I think this topic (father's death) was forbidden in YG's mind until the post-16-year when he met the 1st freak & his not-so-nice company again that temple that YK died.

    - Then, YG now help GJ/HR fighting with GWM's group. Helping Wu brothers solving their love problem. YG think he was going to die for sure. He separate from XLN again (yes, again). Unfortunately, he got a reward of his goody via the arm cut provided by GF. Well, fortunately, he turn out to be even more powerful through DGQB's sword method. Then, he came back to give GF his revenge but GJ soften YG's mind again after YG secretly learn that GJ plan to punish GF by cutting her arm. As we all know, it was not sucessful move due to HR. Note that I think YG feeling was eased after knowing that GJ plan to really cut GF's arm. After this incident, I don't think YG really want to cut GF's arm anymore (although he chase HR/GF). Then, it is about capturing GX, reunion+marrying XLN (3rd reunion if I remember correctly), XLN getting poison, meeting YD, visiting passionless valley and finally the start of the famous 16-year separation (4th separation if I count correctly).

    - Now, 16-year pass, XLN was still no-where. YG found out about the HR's lie about Southern-Sea Nun after meeting HYS. So, somehow, he arrive at his father's grave at the temple that YK died. He met the 1st freak, helping the 1st freak and learning the truth about his father's death. YG feel a bit shock (or sad) that his father was not as good as what he imagined. Then case closed.


    IMPORTANT NOTE:

    Different from GJ, YG's life was a bit (or much) more complicated than GJ. YG's life was a bit lonely. He didn't have many people he can rely on or at least he try to rely on. YG was not quite open to other people. At the time that YG learn about his father's death, YG didn't have a good name in the martil society since he announce that he will marry XLN. It is probably because of this, YG decide to join GWM's side since most of people in the central plain will be on GJ's side (HYS who kinda support him was HR's father & GJ's father-in-law anyway). By living with a group who doesn't have a good will for China, no one really try to correct YG when he decide to assasinate GJ/HR (probably more on supporting him instead). YG was working this task "alone" (XLN just follow YG and Mongol group just provided some help). So, I think YG was probably lonely and cannot think "straight".

    Again, at this thrilling (assasination) period (I may say) in Xiang Yang, YG's mind was swinging between saving GJ and killing GJ. The thing is that GJ was, well, a very good guy and make YG so admired him. So, in YG's heart, I think he don't think GJ can do wrong but he didn't want to believe his father was wrong too. Until YG can see that GJ shouldn't make any wrong move on his father's death, so he shut this topic out of his mind from now on (until meeting the 1st freak after 16-year separation).

    I just want to mention that after YG killed the Klan at the end of ROCH. GJ hold YG's hand walking with him into Xiang Yang. YG did feel that he can do a good thing because of GJ. In other words, if not because GJ was so good, YG may make a wrong move and will regret in the rest of his life. In his mind, YG really thank GJ.

    As I said before, I think YG's revenge act was understandable but it is still not right whatsoever (so I don't feel right about it). And, as you may see, I didn't try to give any obvious judge about who is right or wrong but I do judge which one is a right or wrong act sometimes.

    OK, finish the 2nd part. The 3rd part is about if GJ is YG, based on YG's incident what I think GJ will do. This will take sometimes to think and write but hopefully coming soon.

    Again, please feel free to give me your comment.
    Last edited by Wu Xing; 12-21-06 at 01:39 AM.

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    Moderator kidd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbx
    As Guo Jing contemplated murdering Huang Rong as well, that would have been a completely innocent person.

    Here is the other thing... Yang Guo could have let Guo Jing die, at the point that Guo Jing was fighting to protect Xiang Yang, if he did not save Guo Jing, what would have happened? I have been hard-pressed to believe that Yang Guo would have had the cold-heartedness to actually stab Guo Jing.

    Also althrough he contemplated cold blood murder, it's been show that his righteousness always stayed his hand.

    "The candlelight in the room had gone out long ago but Yang Guo had the ability to see things in the dark. When he was about to thrust the dagger, he glanced over at Guo Jing’s face. There was a peaceful expression on his face and he was in a deep sleep; all the love that Guo Jing shown him when he was younger suddenly surfaced in his heart. How he treated him lovingly on the Peach Blossom Island; how he took him all the way to Mount Zhongnan to learn martial arts; how he betrothed his only daughter to him. He couldn’t stop himself from thinking, “Uncle Guo is a straight and honest man; he is an extremely sincere and kind person; he cannot be the person who killed my father. Could it be that Sha Gu was confused and was talking rubbish? If this knife goes forward and kills an innocent man, I won’t be able to redeem this with ten thousand deaths. I’ll wait; I need to make sure.”

    He put away his dagger slowly and thought about all the things that had happened since he’d met the Guo couple; pondering over every single memory. He remembered how Huang Rong always felt uneasy with him around; there were many times when she and Guo Jing were talking about something but would immediately change the subject once she saw him. There was no question about it; the couple was keeping something from him."

    This is exactly what he did when Guo Jing was asleep. He held his hand so he could investigate further. You also have to realize that holding his hand is akin to killing himself and XLN, at this point he and XLN has been poisoned.

    After this Guo Jing and Huang Rong had a conversation where they basically voiced that they "wanted" to kill Yang Guo's father.

    Now revenging one's father is certainly not a evil act especially when more or less confirmed by the supposed perpatrators. Sha Gu's revelation was only the first part of his actions.

    "How would he know that when he was talking to his wife, Yang Guo was hiding behind the pavilion and heard every single word they said? When Guo Jing returned to the inner halls with his wife, Yang Guo stood there in a daze. His mind was repeatedly going over what Huang Rong had said, “I just wished that I killed him earlier… his father died from poison as a result from striking me on the shoulder… both of us had the thought of killing him in our minds and in the end he did die because of me.” He thought, “There’s no more doubts, my father died because of the two them. Huang Rong is really wily; she’s already suspicious of me. If I don’t make my move today then I don’t think I’ll ever get another chance like this.” He then returned to the room and slept on the bed quietly, waiting for Guo Jing to return."

    This is very damning evidence from the horse's mouth. And it directly implicated Guo Jing and Huang Rong were directly involved in Yang Kang's death. Sha Gu only started Yang Guo's journey, but it was Huang Rong's own admissions.
    Great argument dbx. Many YG haters just focus on the Sha Gu part but forget HR's own very damning admission.
    Last edited by kidd; 12-21-06 at 01:30 AM.
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  12. #12
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidd
    Great argument dbx. Many YG haters just focus on the Sha Gu part but forget HR's own very damning admission.
    What was there to admit? She didn't kill Yeung Hong. Fate and his own evil actions did. Wong Yung just unwittingly provided the means of execution. Even Yeung Gor came to realize this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    What was there to admit? She didn't kill Yeung Hong. Fate and his own evil actions did. Wong Yung just unwittingly provided the means of execution. Even Yeung Gor came to realize this.
    Read dbx long summary of HR's 'admission'.

    "How would he know that when he was talking to his wife, Yang Guo was hiding behind the pavilion and heard every single word they said? When Guo Jing returned to the inner halls with his wife, Yang Guo stood there in a daze. His mind was repeatedly going over what Huang Rong had said, “I just wished that I killed him earlier… his father died from poison as a result from striking me on the shoulder… both of us had the thought of killing him in our minds and in the end he did die because of me.” He thought, “There’s no more doubts, my father died because of the two them. Huang Rong is really wily; she’s already suspicious of me. If I don’t make my move today then I don’t think I’ll ever get another chance like this.” He then returned to the room and slept on the bed quietly, waiting for Guo Jing to return."

    If that's not admission. I don't know what is.

    Please read my post properly first.

    Gosh, u made it sound like I demand HR's admission or something.

    What I mean is, people who condemn YG just focus on "YG believe a retarded Sha Gu's account of the event" but ignore or forget "YG also overheard HR's admission that she and GJ wanted to kill YK and that YK died partly because of HR." which is the more damning evidence. Yes, YG realised it later, but this is still a very damning evidence. You only don't think it's damning because as person who has seen the whole LOCH and you know the truth. You are using 20/20 hindsight when seeing this evidence.
    Last edited by kidd; 12-21-06 at 01:43 AM.
    什麼是朋友?朋友永遠是在你犯下不可原諒錯誤的時候,仍舊站在你那邊的笨蛋。~ 王亞瑟

    和諧唔係一百個人講同一番話,係一百個人有一百句唔同嘅說話,而又互相尊重 ~ - 葉梓恩

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbx
    Guo Jing did actually "murder" many innocent and possible pregnant people for Genghis Khan, he and Huang Rong helped Genghis Khan win many battles and take the city of Samarkand. For his vengence of his father, he was involved in the death of many in his city. His heroic nature did show itself, but only after the death had begun and many innocent lives were lost.

    For his vengence, many innocent people "actually" died. Repentant or not, ignorance is no excuse? Or is it.
    If you are of the persuasion that war is murder, which is an understandable if not universally shared belief, then there's no need to read or discuss further.

    If you do not, however, believe that war is necessarily murder, then consider this: the young Gwok Jing grew up believing that war was a heroic, glorious enterprise (a belief shared by many young men, unfortunately). As a soldier in Genghis Khan's Mongol forces, Gwok Jing believed that he was on a heroic mission to liberate the oppressed (i.e. the people ruled by the Juchen Jin Empire). Upon seeing the true face of war...the desolation and destruction it caused...he briefly considered becoming pacifist. Gwok Jing's heart was in the right place when he decided that he wanted to renounce violence, but as Yau Chui Gei advised him, it would have been a mistake. In a violent world wherein peace and justice could not be relied upon to just naturally fall into place, those gifted with the power of martial arts had a choice: to use that power for selfish purposes, or use it to serve the common good. Gwok Jing went through a period of confusion before he finally acted upon what he had learned from Yau Chui Gei and from North Beggar Hung 7 Gung.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kidd
    You only don't think it's damning because as person who has seen the whole LOCH and you know the truth. You are using 20/20 hindsight when seeing this evidence.
    And what's wrong with that? Yeung Gor was just a motion away from making what would have been the biggest mistake of his life. His staunchest supporters would have been hoping he would discover the truth before his actions took a tragic and irrevocable turn.

    If there's something to fault Gwok Jing and Wong Yung (and others) for, and I've brought this up several times over the years, it's that they weren't straight with Yeung Gor from the very beginning. Yes, it would have been hurtful for him to learn the truth about Yeung Hong, and lose the sainted image he had of the father he'd never known. It probably would have been better than keeping him in the dark and letting him draw his own conclusions. It almost did end in tragedy, and it could have been avoided if Gwok Jing, Wong Yung, Ohr Jen Ngok, Yau Chui Gei, Hung 7 Gung, Wong Yerk See, or somebody in the know been honest to him from the very beginning. It's here that I think Yeung Gor's elders failed him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kidd
    "...“I just wished that I killed him earlier… his father died from poison as a result from striking me on the shoulder… both of us had the thought of killing him in our minds and in the end he did die because of me.”..."

    If that's not admission. I don't know what is.
    Wishing to kill and killing are not the same. So, why HR (and/or GJ) want YK to die? This is the first question. And "...died from poison as a result from striking..." means die after striking HR. Why did YK has to strike HR is another question.

    Basically, YG just heard something that confirm what he want to think and then he decide to act. YG's head, at that moment, still not cool enough to find the whole truth about this story. I believe, if HR was the one who hear this conversation, I think she will start thinking about the 2 questions I mentioned above.

    BTW, I'm not YG hater but YG is not my favorite. Also, I didn't forget about GJ/HR conversation that YG overheard (I put it into my writing above, if you kind enough to read it since it is long).

    This is just my personal thinking.

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    I think a critical difference between Yang Guo's intent to murder Guo Jing and Guo Jing's intent to murder Huang Yaoshi, barring the "open and honest" to "colded blooded" aspects would be the difference in relations between the intended murderer and their supposed victim in these two cases. However, these points tie in with one another, and ultimately relate to what JY intends for them to signify.

    Guo Jing didn't really have a personal connection to HYS. HYS was a man who kept his distance from Guo Jing and openly displayed a level of dislike for him. Though he was the father of the person he loved there was little between them, nothing owed and nothing shared. Not much could be said about their relationship because it never really existed. Thus when Guo Jing believed HYS was the murderer of his beloved masters there was little to hold back second thoughts (Anyone using HR as a good reason to do so is really grasping at straws when referencing to GJ's straightforward nature. Without really knowing who her father is or what he's really like there is really no reason for him to believe otherwise, especially when rumours run abound about HYS and he can occassionally be too thick to prevent the hand of justice for the sake of someone dear).

    Even so, GJ pursued what could be considered at the times an honorable approach, confronting HS openly in what would probably be interpreted as an act of respect/decency and a warning. Were it not for HYS's own temperament this approach would have easily lent itself to a quick clarification and resolution, pardoning HYS of any guilt or wrongdoing. The entire process GJ used was carried out in a manner tailored for a moral and just revenge, more for the principle and sake of justice than for personal reasons (Though that's not to say GJ did not also have personal reasons for his behavior). This would reflect well with GJ's representation as a role model for the moral standard in its pure and absolute form. This is different for YG.

    YG had a very very personal relationship with the person/people he intended to kill. After his mother died he was practically adopted into the Guo household and became like GJ's son. In some ways GJ was almost like a savior. In others he was practically his surrogate. Though GJ did not give provide the best care or decisions when he sent YG off to QZ there was a lot of love and good intent in his choice, something that it's doubtful YG would have missed. It's obvious after they meet again once YG grows up that very little changed, that is until he believes that GJ was the murderer of his biological father. His relationship with HR was far more distant, and though he resented her treatment of him she also did provide much for him in terms of his education, a benefit he would later recognize. Though it can be rightly argued that he had to face much mistreatment with HR's distrustful attitude, it can't be denied that he owes much to HR's care as well as GJ's.

    Thus it's not surprising when his decision to kill HR and GJ is questioned and even looked upon with disdain. Though he bases this decision on a commonly accepted moral standard he is pursuing these actions upon individuals who could just as easily substitute for his parental figures. He owes much to GJ and HR and yet still practically betrays both of them for a father he only has blood ties too and who he doesn't even know. Furthermore, though it can be argued that the information he heard from Sha Gu was credible, his covert approach did not lend itself to further clarification of the issue or circumstances and he personally did not exercise the patience or give the chance for GJ's and HR's side of the story, even though this was something promised to him in his childhood (which he regrettably did not have the chance to see the fulfillment of). With a character of YG's intelligence it's almost disappointing to see this kind of rash behavior, even if he was a young man at the time. It doesn't help when his constant reference to his childhood misery and his almost childish (though maybe not inaccurate) belief that his upbringing would be different and happier with his birth father seems to indicate that his intended act of murder was almost like revenge for himself and not for the sake of the moral standard--that killing his father's murderers was right because he suffered instead of the idea that it's right because the murder of his father was wrong (Not to say that this was actually the case, but it could certainly have been mixed in with a lot of other stuff). It all comes down to something on a more personal level than Guo Jing's moral uprightness. But then, that's exactly what YG is meant to portray--the individual's struggle to be a moral being while maintaining its own individuality.

    Because of this contrast between the act of personal vengeance and just vengeance, you get to see all aspects of the subject of morality. On one hand you have the straightforward moral idealism that GJ signifies in his simple but justly mind. GJ is JY's moral standard, the role model of moral actions, the end state absolutism of morality. On the other hand you have the reluctant and constantly confused YG, who needs his intelligence to fit the constant struggle to be both a moral being and an individual. YG in his infinitely more complex situations is JY's everyman, the moral relativism, the process view of morality. YG's actions are intentionally made less admirable because they are not molded to the standards. He is pitted in a world more confusing than the black and white. In the greyness of reality the outcome is never quite as desired as the ideal, never perfect, and since YG represents that when observed merely for the totality of his choices, his thoughts, and his actions he will always come out looking morally shabbier in comparison to GJ. However, that is not where YG gains his merit. Whereas GJ is role model for the golden standards, YG is the role model for humanity's struggle with the less than perfect soul to be good and its ultimate triumph in accomplishing this. YG does not deserve so much admiration for the morality of his intentions or actions. He deserves admiration for the hardships he defeated and struggles he endured in life to become a morally upright character. He is to be admired and looked up to as a symbol of hope for humanity's ability to grow into a good individual and not simply just be one like Guo Jing.

    So stop whining you YG fanboys :P. These GJ-YG comparisons are really tiring, and they're really pointless. YG will never be GJ. He'll never be GJ's equal in representing the rights of the world. But then, GJ will never be YG's equal in winning over hardship to maintain moral integrity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regretless Dragon
    So stop whining you YG fanboys :P. These GJ-YG comparisons are really tiring, and they're really pointless. YG will never be GJ. He'll never be GJ's equal in representing the rights of the world. But then, GJ will never be YG's equal in winning over hardship to maintain moral integrity.
    This doesn't belong in this discussion. Honestly, don't take pot shots.
    "I only scold dogs, not people."

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    Senior Member dbx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Regretless Dragon
    I think a critical difference between Yang Guo's intent to murder Guo Jing and Guo Jing's intent to murder Huang Yaoshi, barring the "open and honest" to "colded blooded" aspects would be the difference in relations between the intended murderer and their supposed victim in these two cases. However, these points tie in with one another, and ultimately relate to what JY intends for them to signify.

    The whole idea that Yang Guo could be cold-blooded in anyway is ludicrous.

    Yang Guo is a hot blooded person, has he ever struck a blow in cold blood in the entire novel. Did he ever strike a blow without being incited?

    Cold-blooded and calculating is Huang Rong... because she does many things knowing full well their consequences, this is the nature of her character. She is inherently a selfish character, if given the choice between killing YK and MNC and saving GJ and her own life. What do you think would have happened? Huang Rong almost murdered MNC because she was competition!!!

    So lets not ever call Yang Guo a cold-blooded murderer. Nothing he does is cold blooded, he acts for love and for rage and for vengeance. He acts for his father, for his lover, for underdogs, for grievances that have occured, maybe for a bit of food and shelter, but rarely if ever for selfish gain.
    "I only scold dogs, not people."

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    Senior Member dbx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Xing
    Wishing to kill and killing are not the same. So, why HR (and/or GJ) want YK to die? This is the first question. And "...died from poison as a result from striking..." means die after striking HR. Why did YK has to strike HR is another question.

    Basically, YG just heard something that confirm what he want to think and then he decide to act. YG's head, at that moment, still not cool enough to find the whole truth about this story. I believe, if HR was the one who hear this conversation, I think she will start thinking about the 2 questions I mentioned above.

    BTW, I'm not YG hater but YG is not my favorite. Also, I didn't forget about GJ/HR conversation that YG overheard (I put it into my writing above, if you kind enough to read it since it is long).

    This is just my personal thinking.
    Huang Rong would have just killed whomever if Guo Jing and her life was on the line, even if it was not her father's murdered.

    Huang Rong is not a benevolent person, she is a selfish one.

    Honestly, Huang Rong would have killed Yang Guo if Guo Jing would have let her. Does anyone actually think for a minute she would not snuff out a threat to her livelihood? One which might come back and haunt her.
    Last edited by dbx; 12-21-06 at 12:12 PM.
    "I only scold dogs, not people."

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