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Thread: Mo Dong martial arts: Cheung 3 Fung's subconscious desire to counter Shaolin?

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default Mo Dong martial arts: Cheung 3 Fung's subconscious desire to counter Shaolin?

    Young Cheung Gwun Bo's association with the Shaolin Temple was not a happy one. He was nearly sentenced to be crippled by Shaolin after having helped them to drive away Ho Juk Do. Because of this incident, his beloved teacher Gok Yeun died. Although Cheung Gwun Bo, later Cheung 3 Fung, was not a vengeful or malicious person, he could not have had a positive view of Shaolin after this incident.

    Did Cheung 3 Fung's feelings towards Shaolin influence the development of his martial arts? While I don't think that Cheung 3 Fung ever consciously thought to himself, "Gee. Let's see what kind of kung fu I can create to counter Shaolin's kung fu," the entire motif of Mo Dong Sect martial arts seems to directly counter that of Shaolin martial arts. Shaolin martial arts is about bone-breaking force, as Ah 2 and Ah 3 demonstrated on Cheung 3 Fung's students Yu Doi Nam and Yan Lei Ting. Mo Dong Sect's martial arts, however, particularly Tai Chi, is directly opposite to this: it uses softness to counter direct force. Tai Chi was particularly effective against Shaolin "hard" arts, as demonstrated by the way Cheung Mo Gei used Tai Chi Fist to defeat Ah 2 and Ah 3.

    Subconsciously, therefore, did Cheung 3 Fung design the Mo Dong Sect martial arts to counter Shaolin's martial arts?

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    No, I don't believe that if he had such a subconcious mental problem, he would have acheived his greatness.

    The result of his arts being soft overcoming hard as opposed to Shaolin's often seen direct skull bashing image is because his foundation was 9 Yang.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    I'm not saying that Cheung 3 Fung had some kind of revenge hangup against Shaolin, but that Shaolin martial arts were most familiar to him from what he gleaned during his youth there (the 9 Yeung Jen Ging has no fighting techniques, so he had to create his own). He might have recognized on an intuitive level that Shaolin martial arts were rather brutal and destructive, and consequently, he designed Mo Dong Sect martial arts to cope with that. To some extent, Mo Dong Sect's martial arts developed in response to the martial arts of Shaolin.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Shaolin martial arts is about bone-breaking force, as Ah 2 and Ah 3 demonstrated on Cheung 3 Fung's students Yu Doi Nam and Yan Lei Ting. Mo Dong Sect's martial arts, however, particularly Tai Chi, is directly opposite to this: it uses softness to counter direct force.
    All martial arts in the end are about overcoming the opponent. Shaolin has some soft skills, while Zhang Sanfeng's skills still produce hardness as a result. More on that tomorrow...
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    I'm not saying that Cheung 3 Fung had some kind of revenge hangup against Shaolin, but that Shaolin martial arts were most familiar to him from what he gleaned during his youth there (the 9 Yeung Jen Ging has no fighting techniques, so he had to create his own). He might have recognized on an intuitive level that Shaolin martial arts were rather brutal and destructive, and consequently,
    IN DGSD, there is a quote that Shaolin's arts are designed to subdue the opponent, not kill. I can't remember the exact chapter reference.

    Besides, I don't think he saw or remembered any external technique of Shaolin while he was there. He and JY were quite removed from everyday Shaolin life. His first experience of techniques was from Yang Guo.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    ... the entire motif of Mo Dong Sect martial arts seems to directly counter that of Shaolin martial arts. Shaolin martial arts is about bone-breaking force, as Ah 2 and Ah 3 demonstrated on Cheung 3 Fung's students Yu Doi Nam and Yan Lei Ting. Mo Dong Sect's martial arts, however, particularly Tai Chi, is directly opposite to this: it uses softness to counter direct force.
    I wouldn't say directly counter Shaolin martial arts, because pretty much every other sect besides Shaolin seems (or is at least depicted) to emphasis soft over hard. Saying WuDang martial arts is directly opposite to Shaolin is like saying that almost every other sect is also like that.

    TaiChi may use softness to overcome hardness, but thinking about it, would Cheung 3 Fung spend years in seclusion just to come up with a martial art just to counter Shaolin?

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    Senior Member batmankiller's Avatar
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    His martial arts can pretty much counter anyone that uses hardness much like QKDLY..but a less advanced version of that.. since even the slightests energy (when mastered level 7) it can be used as demonstrated at xing Zue (the son of Son yuen qiu) by ZWJ.. although the difference is skill level is so vast.. we don't really know what would've happened had a person who mastered that specific soft skill.. been able to avoid the QKDLY.. although it's hinted throughout that QKDLY can pretty much use anyone's strength against them

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    I wonder how Zhang Sanfeng would fare against someone who has reached the peak of perfection in Liangyi Swordplay, the technique which was dubbed as superior to The Great Reversal (Qiankun Danuoyi).
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member batmankiller's Avatar
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    is that possible? considering The great reversal is a more advanced version of the tai-chi? but allows for more flexibility and increases when the user has more internal energy

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    I wonder how Zhang Sanfeng would fare against someone who has reached the peak of perfection in Liangyi Swordplay, the technique which was dubbed as superior to The Great Reversal (Qiankun Danuoyi).
    QKDNY isn't directly inferior to LiangYi Swordplay. It is just a skill, unlike LiangYi Swordplay, which was a skill based on a formation. Therefore the way to countering LiangYi is more than simply fighting; it requires methodical planning and counter-formations to prevent being the helpless victim. QKDNY is not designed as such; it is up to the practitioner's personal formation-handling instincts or experience or knowledge to get out of that sticky quagmire.

    Assumedly, Z3F would know the Taoism positionings and the Trigram's formation, being a Taoist himself. By enabling himself to get in control of the formation, he could fare much better than ZWJ.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Well, it was stated that Liangyi Swordplay at its highest level is more advanced than The Great Reversal. Does Lianyi Swordplay/Sabre have to be a formation? Can it be performed by an individual?

    华山、昆仑两派的正反两仪刀剑之术,是
    从中国固有的河图洛书、以及伏羲文王的八卦方位中推演而得,其奥妙精微之处,若能深研
    到极致,比之西域的乾坤大挪移实有过之而无不及,只是易理深邃,何太冲夫妇及高矮二老
    只不过学得二三成而已,否则早已合力将敌手毙于刀剑之下
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member batmankiller's Avatar
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    More advanced sure.. nothing about being totally superior.. advanced could mean.. more on theory, technique.. but it's two totally different things.. one is an internal thing, one is an external thing.. perhaps if it was said that the Lianyi Swordplay was too advanced for the great reversal to work then I would consider it to be more likely. But honestly I don't think it's possible for something that isn't counterable by the Great Reversal as long as there is enough internal energy for the user to incorporate while taking advantage of his Chi energies at it's fullest

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by batmankiller
    More advanced sure.. nothing about being totally superior.. advanced could mean.. more on theory, technique.. but it's two totally different things.. one is an internal thing, one is an external thing.. perhaps if it was said that the Lianyi Swordplay was too advanced for the great reversal to work then I would consider it to be more likely. But honestly I don't think it's possible for something that isn't counterable by the Great Reversal as long as there is enough internal energy for the user to incorporate while taking advantage of his Chi energies at it's fullest
    If you read the description from the novel, it says that Liangyi Sabre/Swordplay IS SUPERIOR TO The Great Reversal.

    And I doubt The Great Reversal is more advanced than Taiji. Jin Yong said that Taiji opened up a whole new dimension for the field of martial arts. This means that Taiji > all previous martial arts known in HSDS.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member kyss of the sword's Avatar
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    QKDNY was a great skill that contained advanced martial theories and techniques to use inner power, but the Lianyi Swordplay formation was far more broader and refined in it's theories. QKDNY was a way to counter force and Lianyi Swordplay formation was a way to fight that could not be countered. it had practically limitless variations and changes, while QKDNY, as great as it is, has an upper limit it can't really pass. Lianyi Swordplay formation is comparable to wudang zhenwu seven heros formation. but a single person can not perform the whole formation alone.
    THE KYSS OF THE SWORD IS DEADLY BUT EXQUSITE
    he's the strongest in history but he's the disciple.
    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/histor...ciple_kenichi/

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    What about Lianyi Swordplay versus Dook Goo Kau Bai's techniques?

    This one should be good...

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    What about Lianyi Swordplay versus Dook Goo Kau Bai's techniques?

    This one should be good...
    Its Liangyi Jian Fa, not Lianyi.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC
    Its Liangyi Jian Fa, not Lianyi.
    Whatever the heck it's called, how does it compare to Dook Goo Kau Bai's sword theories/techniques?

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    Whatever the heck it's called, how does it compare to Dook Goo Kau Bai's sword theories/techniques?
    My honest opinion?


    DG9J from SOD : The dying and half unconcious Linghu Chong sticks out his broken sword backwards and the Liangyi Master shouts out in pain as his foot is pierced.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

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    Only if the liangyi master is not someone like DFBB who is too fast to have his foot stabbed by a fully healthy Linghu chong. I was always kinda bitter that DG9J could be beaten by pure speed. Makes it seem so weak somehow.

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kara
    Only if the liangyi master is not someone like DFBB who is too fast to have his foot stabbed by a fully healthy Linghu chong. I was always kinda bitter that DG9J could be beaten by pure speed. Makes it seem so weak somehow.
    I am more bitter the other way! That all those hard work other swordsmen put into their years of training is broken by a straightforward poke by a half dead guy!
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

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