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Thread: Beggar's Union Chief Shih For Lung: better than he gets credit for?

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default Beggar's Union Chief Shih For Lung: better than he gets credit for?

    When one thinks of the great Chiefs of Beggar's Union history, the name of Shih For Lung doesn't usually come up as a candidate for serious contention. That's natural: he didn't have the charisma or martial arts prowess of Kiu Fung or North Beggar Hung 7 Gung, nor did he have the wit of Wong Yung.

    That said, he is, perhaps, an underestimated figure in term of martial arts.

    Shih For Lung had managed to learn only twelve of the Hong Lung 18 Palms. Even so, he was able to singlehandedly give Sing Kwun quite a run for his money. Sing Kwun defeated Shih For Lung, but it was reportedly a close fight that Sing Kwun could have lost. That's quite impressive. In HSDS, only Cheung 3 Fung and Cheung Mo Gei could surely defeat Sing Kwun singlehandedly. The Ming Cult Heralds of Light and Guardian Lords couldn't do it (Tse Tsun did it, but only because he had the cover of darkness on his side). Although Shih For Lung didn't quite do it either, he fought Sing Kwun better than probably a Guardian Lord or Herald of Light could, which puts Shih For Lung in the upper echelon of HSDS fighters outside of Cheung 3 Fung and Cheung Mo Gei.

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    Yeah, I agree. Shi Huolong might not be as great as the famous leaders but he is no pushover either.
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    Senior Member kyss of the sword's Avatar
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    also remember that shi huo long was ambushed by chengkun and had a severe injury, plus was crippled. before his injury and impairment, he should be at the ZWJ 2/3 level approximate. probably better then the individual du monks.
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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default Shih For Lung - do we underrate this guy?

    Shih For Lung, the Chief of the Beggar's Union during HSDS, is considered one of the lesser lights among the holders of this prominent wulin position. Surely, his martial arts were not of the class of such predecessors as Kiu Fung and North Beggar Hung 7 Gung.

    But perhaps we underestimate him?

    Although Shih was defeated by Sing Kwun, as I understand it, it was a long, bitter struggle that Sing Kwun only barely won, and not without sustaining significant injury himself. In the wulin of HSDS, only a handful of people were powerful enough to injure Sing Kwun in a one-on-one fight. Cheung 3 Fung could do it. Cheung Mo Gei could do it. Golden-Haired Lion King Tse Tsun did it, but only because he was accustomed to fighting sightless while Sing Kwun wasn't.

    That puts Sing Kwun's martial arts in the Dao-Generation Shaolin monks class, which was higher than that of the Ming Cult Guardian Lords and Heralds of Light (and Mo Dong Heroes). Shih For Lung, therefore, was *at least* as powerful as a Ming Cult Guardian Lord, Herald of Light, or Mo Dong Hero...which puts him in pretty illustrious company in terms of martial arts level in the world of HSDS. Only the Greats-level fighters (Cheng 3 Fung and Cheung Mo Gei) and the Dao monks absolutely were of a higher level than Shih.

    Wouldn't that put Shih's martial arts level at least at the level of end-of-ROCH Yeh Lut Chai, and possibly at or near the level of ROCH Wong Yung? Shih's martial arts were almost certainly better than Lo Yau Gerk's.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    I just realized I did this topic around two years ago.

    Still, I don't think we examined it enough the first time. Another round?

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    Senior Member flamer's Avatar
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    I would highly doubt he's 2/3 of ZWJ. That means he would be leaps and bounds ahead of Yang DINGtian.

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    Yes Shi Huolong is really strong, only slightly below Cheng Kun. Maybe Shi was around a XuanMing elder level and stronger than the Heralds.

    We know that only Guo Jing, Hong Qigong, Xiao Feng, Xu Zhu and Yeh Lut Chai mastered the entirety of the 18 Dragon Subduing Palms.

    I wonder if by Beggar Chief standards, 12 palms is average or above average. Too bad we have little information about the Beggar Chiefs of other generations such as Xie Feng from Smiling Proud Wanderer. And all the chiefs before Xiao Feng studied the old version of 28 Dragon Palms.

    Maybe Shi HuoLong is about as strong as Hong Qigong was at the first Huashan tournament? Since it was said that Hong Qigong had not yet mastered all of the Dragon Subduing Palms.
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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    I would estimate Shi Huolong to be around the level of Xie Xun. Shi might have better internal energy since he was able to injure Cheng Kun, but Xie Xun lasted over 200 or 300 stances with Cheng Kun, that's about the same amount Golden Wheel Monk lasted against Yang Guo, which means Xie Xun is only slightly worse than Cheng Kun too.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    I would estimate Shi Huolong to be around the level of Xie Xun. Shi might have better internal energy since he was able to injure Cheng Kun, but Xie Xun lasted over 200 or 300 stances with Cheng Kun, that's about the same amount Golden Wheel Monk lasted against Yang Guo, which means Xie Xun is only slightly worse than Cheng Kun too.
    The Tse Tsun/Sing Kwun fight might not have gone that far if Sing Kwun had been as accustomed to fighting sightless as Tse Tsun was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    The Tse Tsun/Sing Kwun fight might not have gone that far if Sing Kwun had been as accustomed to fighting sightless as Tse Tsun was.
    They fought for 200 stances before Cheng Kun went blind.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    They fought for 200 stances before Cheng Kun went blind.
    I'm not talking about Sing Kwun's affliction with actual blindness, but his getting dragged into that dark pit to finish the fight with Tse Tsun. Down there, Tse Tsun held the upper hand: he was accustomed to fighting without the aid of his vision, whereas fighting in darkness was something that Sing Kwun couldn't do nearly as well.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    I'm not talking about Sing Kwun's affliction with actual blindness, but his getting dragged into that dark pit to finish the fight with Tse Tsun. Down there, Tse Tsun held the upper hand: he was accustomed to fighting without the aid of his vision, whereas fighting in darkness was something that Sing Kwun couldn't do nearly as well.
    That was still 200 stances later.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member Huumanshadow's Avatar
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    I'm a little confused... is the 18 palms only pass down to chief or it depends on the level of your pouches? XF knew all 18 long before he became chief or even heir to the positions. Why would it be hard to learn all 18? GJ did it in a few months and he's very...slow. Isnt one of the strength of the 18 Palms is its simple direct strikes with no fake or fancy moves?
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    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    The mystery of HL18P isn't its motions but the energy deliver it entails. This is why it requires a high level of internal energy to master. If GJ didn't have the very high quality QZ internal energy, he wouldn't have been able to progress with HL18P the way he did.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huumanshadow View Post
    I'm a little confused... is the 18 palms only pass down to chief or it depends on the level of your pouches?
    In DGSD, it was stated that traditionally, the chief is the only one who knows XL18Z.

    XF knew all 18 long before he became chief or even heir to the positions.
    I'm not sure if that is true...

    Why would it be hard to learn all 18? GJ did it in a few months and he's very...slow. Isnt one of the strength of the 18 Palms is its simple direct strikes with no fake or fancy moves?
    Guo Jing is actually very talented in terms of learning martial arts. Look at his achievements.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    It's strange that in LOCH, DBS was the skill learned by the chiefs while XL18P can be passed to even non-beggar clan members.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
    It's strange that in LOCH, DBS was the skill learned by the chiefs while XL18P can be passed to even non-beggar clan members.
    Hadn't that always been the case?

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    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    I meant in light of the comment in DGSD that PJ mentioned. Just another retcon from DGSD as usual.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Hadn't that always been the case?
    No. In DGSD it was specifically stated that no one other than the chief would know XL18Z.

    The LOCH incident might be a one-off divergence.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member Huumanshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    In DGSD, it was stated that traditionally, the chief is the only one who knows XL18Z.



    I'm not sure if that is true...



    Guo Jing is actually very talented in terms of learning martial arts. Look at his achievements.
    I dont know about this because in LOCH Gigong taught random beggar clan members one or two moves from the XL18Z if he likes them so maybe tradition got change? i'm not 100% sure about XF knowing the 18 Palms before becoming chief too, but all the TV adaptation hints that he does plus he became famous as North Xiao, South Murong before he became chief so i think he must of knew it before to roam jianghu. I am a big fan of GJ but no way is he 'talent'. He's the Rock Lee of wuxia, where HR is the Sasuke. He just work alot harder then most because he knew that he's dumb, say so himself many times.
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    I fight with my dog for the role of master and pet daily and he usually wins.

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