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Why did wulin invest so much into developing Kiu Fung when it was going to ruin him?
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Thread: Why did wulin invest so much into developing Kiu Fung when it was going to ruin him?

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default Why did wulin invest so much into developing Kiu Fung when it was going to ruin him?

    In some ways, Kiu Fung was the only hero that was "custom-made" by wulin. The Shaolin Temple and the Beggar's Union had invested a great deal of time and energy over the years to maximize the talents of Kiu Fung and make him the great hero we saw when he first appeared in DGSD.

    But what was the point of Shaolin and the Beggar's Union building Kiu Fung up like that if they were just going to tear him down anyway? It's not as if the senior Shaolin and Beggar's Union leaders didn't know the truth about Kiu Fung's Khitan origins from the very beginning. It was Shaolin and the Beggar's Union who were instrumental to Kiu Fung's rise to prominence in wulin, and it was also members of Shaolin and the Beggar's Union that orchestrated his downfall.

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    Senior Member S Beaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    In some ways, Kiu Fung was the only hero that was "custom-made" by wulin. The Shaolin Temple and the Beggar's Union had invested a great deal of time and energy over the years to maximize the talents of Kiu Fung and make him the great hero we saw when he first appeared in DGSD.

    But what was the point of Shaolin and the Beggar's Union building Kiu Fung up like that if they were just going to tear him down anyway? It's not as if the senior Shaolin and Beggar's Union leaders didn't know the truth about Kiu Fung's Khitan origins from the very beginning. It was Shaolin and the Beggar's Union who were instrumental to Kiu Fung's rise to prominence in wulin, and it was also members of Shaolin and the Beggar's Union that orchestrated his downfall.
    i don't think their intent was to make him into a hero but rather did it out of guilt (and some didn't know about it and just saw him as a talent). plus, i don't think the fact that he was khitan was suppose to be known, more like a secret that was suppose to die with them and him...
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    Senior Member wang23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    In some ways, Kiu Fung was the only hero that was "custom-made" by wulin. The Shaolin Temple and the Beggar's Union had invested a great deal of time and energy over the years to maximize the talents of Kiu Fung and make him the great hero we saw when he first appeared in DGSD.

    But what was the point of Shaolin and the Beggar's Union building Kiu Fung up like that if they were just going to tear him down anyway? It's not as if the senior Shaolin and Beggar's Union leaders didn't know the truth about Kiu Fung's Khitan origins from the very beginning. It was Shaolin and the Beggar's Union who were instrumental to Kiu Fung's rise to prominence in wulin, and it was also members of Shaolin and the Beggar's Union that orchestrated his downfall.
    Part of the reason why everyone invested so much time and effort into Qiu Fung was probably out of remorse for killing his parents and ruining his life. Hui Juk's father and Beggar Union Leader Wong survived the battle at the gate and found out that Siu Yuan Shan had no bad intentions. I don't think they ever planned to tear him down, but were rather cautious of his ancestry. Everything was setup as a contingency plan for the day that Qiu Fung would turn into a ruthless Khitan which never really happened.

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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    But what was the point of Shaolin and the Beggar's Union building Kiu Fung up like that if they were just going to tear him down anyway?
    They were not going to. They would only do that if XF betrayed the Hans, as written in the letters between Shaolin and Beggar Clan. Madam Ma and her lover found the letters and so they set XF up to cover their crimes.
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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Ken, on this count even TVB and the other serial makers got it right everytime. Surprised you even asked!
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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC
    Ken, on this count even TVB and the other serial makers got it right everytime. Surprised you even asked!
    It's been a long time since I've watched DGSD (almost twenty years), although I will begin next week. It was never transparent to me why they both made him and broke him. Project Kiu Fung was one of Shaolin and the Beggar's Union great success stories, but it seemed like they aborted that experiment just as it reached its peak.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Revisiting this topic, I still wonder why the wulin leaders of DGSD decided to teach Kiu Fung advanced martial arts and allowed him to lead one of *the* most powerful organizations in wulin if they distrusted him from the beginning because of his Khitan heritage. If they wanted to assuage their guilty consciences about having killed his mother, wouldn't it have been sufficient for them to ensure that he enjoyed a good, normal life with his adoptive parents the Kius and eventually settled down to a normal, quiet existence? If they distrusted him that much, they should have never taught him martial arts or allowed him to join the Beggar's Union in the first place.

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    I agree with Ken. Yes, the adaptations all have given the explanation for the contingency plan. But, if they already have such basic distrust of him because of his lineage, why not do what HR plan to do to YG i.e. teach him literature only? Make him a scholar. Then, they wouldn't have to worry about him turning against wulin and causing harm.
    Last edited by kidd; 01-31-12 at 02:38 AM.
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    Xiao Feng is known to be one of Jin Yong's most tragic heroes. Thinking from a writer's point of view, perhaps Jin Yong just wanted to create a tragic hero and the angst/drama that it entails. What's more tragic than having the people and the world who you have loved and respected for over 30 years reject you in the worst way possible? But when given the choice to rebel and war against those who had raised and then reject him, he chose death to protect both, his biological lineage and his foster lineage. Jin Yong probably had the idea to create a tragic hero from early on and explored all situations that would make Xiao Feng become his tragic hero.

    I guess the core question in which some, if not most, Jin Yong heroes are questioned in their stories is this: What will the hero choose to do when the people and the world he protects rejects him? Or when his whole world is turned upside down? Does he still choose the honorable path? Be the hero or become the villain?

    Or what makes a hero? Is it his heroic conduct or what makes him a hero is his lineage, the orthodox or unorthodox affiliations, patriotism?
    Last edited by Suet Seung; 01-30-12 at 08:07 AM.
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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Revisiting this topic, I still wonder why the wulin leaders of DGSD...
    It helps to remember it wasn't just one leader who decided the matter. There were at least 3 ppl, and what's one sure thing when you have more than one person? Different opinions. As Reverend Zhiguang tells us, he wanted the baby to have a peaceful life, but Brother Leader (Xuanci) wanted to offer the baby more, and Wang Jiantong also leaned more towards that opinion. So 2 outnumbered 1 in favor of hero making.

    Why did Xuanci want to give the baby the opportunity to become a great hero? Maybe he saw something in the baby that reminded him of "what a great man" the dad was (as they saw first hand).
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    It helps to remember it wasn't just one leader who decided the matter. There were at least 3 ppl, and what's one sure thing when you have more than one person? Different opinions. As Reverend Zhiguang tells us, he wanted the baby to have a peaceful life, but Brother Leader (Xuanci) wanted to offer the baby more, and Wang Jiantong also leaned more towards that opinion. So 2 outnumbered 1 in favor of hero making.

    Why did Xuanci want to give the baby the opportunity to become a great hero? Maybe he saw something in the baby that reminded him of "what a great man" the dad was (as they saw first hand).
    I think Chief Abbot Yeun Chi and Union Chief Wong weren't thinking straight when they made this decision. It's hard to believe that they overlooked the reality that Kiu Fung's rise to the top of wulin was built on a house of cards. Too many people knew the secret of Kiu Fung's origin for the risk to be acceptable. Even if everyone who knew the secret initially could be trusted to keep it, they made a BIG mistake in leaving behind a paper trail of the incident for someone such as Madame Ma to exploit.

    I don't think the Chief Abbot and the Union Chief thought through the ramifications of their choice well at all; Monk Chi Gong was right.

  12. #12
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    I think Chief Abbot Yeun Chi and Union Chief Wong weren't thinking straight when they made this decision. It's hard to believe that they overlooked the reality that Kiu Fung's rise to the top of wulin was built on a house of cards. Too many people knew the secret of Kiu Fung's origin for the risk to be acceptable. Even if everyone who knew the secret initially could be trusted to keep it, they made a BIG mistake in leaving behind a paper trail of the incident for someone such as Madame Ma to exploit.

    I don't think the Chief Abbot and the Union Chief thought through the ramifications of their choice well at all; Monk Chi Gong was right.
    I'm not sure "too many ppl know the secret" that XF was the baby. Zhiguang, Wang Jiantong, Xuanci, and Ma Dayuan are the only ppl I know for sure who knew. Zhao Qiansun was at the original incident, but he might not know who the baby turned out to be.

    The only thing, maybe, they didn't do well is to not fully trust XF and leaving a paper trail (namely the letter to Ma Dayuan). Wang Jiantong was suspicious of XF even after putting him through the most comprehensive test ever required of a future leader, which was unfair to XF. He should have either trusted him or not given him the chief role. I have a feeling that Xuanci would have fully trusted XF, being the one who championed the baby's hero-making fate. But I can understand why they decided to give the baby to Beggars Union, since that would give him more opportunity. Thus back to the complication when the decision was made by a majority, but each person still had a different opinion.

    Still, by far most of the blame goes to Madam Ma for orchestrating and executing the entire scheme.
    Last edited by PJ; 01-31-12 at 01:39 AM.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Moderator Suet Seung's Avatar
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    Discrimination against race/lineage still exists no matter how much Qiao/Xiao Feng accomplished and how great a leader he was. So basically after all those years, there was still a shadow of a doubt, that once he knew his true heritage, he'd have a change of heart. They weren't 100% sure he'd keep his loyalty with the lineage that raised him and not his true lineage. Nature vs nuture? They all know how Khitan people are like to their people. Paper trails is insurance, just in case, counter measure. I mean...they were basically responsible for the death of his mother and supposedly his father, so would he stay loyal or seek revenge?

    Perhaps, they also considered what he did as a kid, killing the doctor who refused to treat Mr. Qiao. They could consider it was in his nature to be bloodthirsty like the Khitan barbarians. So like Kidd said, why not make him a scholar? He probably won people over by his honorable and good deeds and people somewhat forgot that he's Khitan or looked past it. His teachers did grew to love him genuinely as a son/student.

    I don't know...this is probably nothing new to throw in...but I'll post it anyway. Perhaps, I'm just stating the obvious.
    Last edited by Suet Seung; 01-31-12 at 01:54 AM.
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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suet Seung View Post
    Discrimination against race/lineage still exists no matter how much Qiao/Xiao Feng accomplished and how great a leader he was. So basically after all those years, there was still a shadow of a doubt, that once he knew his true heritage, he'd have a change of heart. They weren't 100% sure he'd keep his loyalty with the lineage that raised him and not his true lineage. Nature vs nuture? They all know how Khitan people are like to their people. Paper trails is insurance, just in case, counter measure. I mean...they were basically responsible for the death of his mother and supposedly his father, so would he stay loyal or seek revenge?

    Perhaps, they also considered what he did as a kid, killing the doctor who refused to treat Mr. Qiao. They could consider it was in his nature to be bloodthirsty like the Khitan barbarians. So like Kidd said, why not make him a scholar? He probably won people over by his honorable and good deeds and people somewhat forgot that he's Khitan or looked past it. His teachers did grew to love him genuinely as a son/student.

    I don't know...this is probably nothing new to throw in...but I'll post it anyway. Perhaps, I'm just stating the obvious.
    What doesn't add up, however, is that if they distrusted him that much and were that prejudiced against him, they'd enable him with top level martial arts and authority over one of the most powerful martial sects. Why would the wulin leaders give some of their most important and powerful assets to a man they didn't feel they could trust? That's insane.

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    Senior Member ChanceEncounter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    What doesn't add up, however, is that if they distrusted him that much and were that prejudiced against him, they'd enable him with top level martial arts and authority over one of the most powerful martial sects. Why would the wulin leaders give some of their most important and powerful assets to a man they didn't feel they could trust? That's insane.
    They (e.g. the people making the decision) didn't distrust him that much. They believed that he would be a generally good citizen, but in the event that he would go bad, they had a contingency plan. They made the decision to teach him martial arts because they felt like they owed him that much. They had destroyed his life because of their mistake, and they owed him a chance of being a great man like his father. It's also Confucian culture. They didn't expect anyone to come in and spill the secrets. It was in the hands of a handful of people and they had no intention of telling anyone.

    In short, their desire to make amends outweighed their fear that XF would turn against them, or that someone else would uncover the secret. If it wasn't for Madam Ma, they would have been right.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChanceEncounter View Post
    They (e.g. the people making the decision) didn't distrust him that much. They believed that he would be a generally good citizen, but in the event that he would go bad, they had a contingency plan. They made the decision to teach him martial arts because they felt like they owed him that much. They had destroyed his life because of their mistake, and they owed him a chance of being a great man like his father. It's also Confucian culture. They didn't expect anyone to come in and spill the secrets. It was in the hands of a handful of people and they had no intention of telling anyone.

    In short, their desire to make amends outweighed their fear that XF would turn against them, or that someone else would uncover the secret. If it wasn't for Madam Ma, they would have been right.
    "Sigh." Kiu Fung's tragedy could have been averted if only Deputy Union Chief Ma had owned one of these:


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    If Deputy Union Chief Ma owned one then there would be no DGSD.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    If Deputy Union Chief Ma owned one then there would be no DGSD.
    There would be, but it'd consist of Union Chief Kiu Fung and his beggar buddies beating up on bad guys.

    Which would actually be kind of fun, really.

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    There would be, but it'd consist of Union Chief Kiu Fung and his beggar buddies beating up on bad guys.

    Which would actually be kind of fun, really.
    Back to your original question, its not logical (oh wait its a wuxia novel) that at the very beginning, they could have ensured that XF would have been such a dominating force. You could teach the kid some solid foundations but there was no guarantee that he would be strong enough in martial arts to be say an effective beggar sect leader. Heck, you couldn't even guarantee that by 30 he would be able to train in Shaolin 72 arts or 28DP without injuring himself.
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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    If they wanted to assuage their guilty consciences about having killed his mother, wouldn't it have been sufficient for them to ensure that he enjoyed a good, normal life with his adoptive parents the Kius and eventually settled down to a normal, quiet existence? If they distrusted him that much, they should have never taught him martial arts or allowed him to join the Beggar's Union in the first place.
    I don't disagree with this thinking, but obviously, this being a wuxia novel and the guy being a earth-shaking wuxia hero, it wouldn't be very fun if they decided to restrict him to literature, arts, and farming.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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