Death Match: DFBB vs. XF

[PJ]

However, do we know that was SM's limit?

The point is that even when Sweeper Monk was not fast, he could nevertheless execute stances which are unstoppable to his opponents. If you think that speed is Sweeper Monk's advantage, or that he needs to match Dongfang Bubai's speed to win, then I'm afraid you've underestimated the Sweeper Monk.

And due to what? DFBB misaimed due to anger, but it also proves when he is in normal condition that he could easily be pinpoint damn accurate. Furthermore, EVEN when DFBB was in anger mode, he was still accurate, just not AS accurate compared to when DFBB is in normal mode. Plus, you can't measure DFBB and XF's accuracy/firmness in anger mode because the nature of the 2 arts they learn are completly different. Also, when I said this point, I also mentioned that DFBB in stable mode would have unparraleled accuracy and control.

You cannot assume he's gonna be in "stable" mode in a fight. If there's evidence that he is susceptible to worse performance due to emotional instability (which there is), then we have to take that piece of information into consideration.

[CC]

However, do we know that was SM's limit? That is the problem. To trully say if someone is faster than someone, we have to take it around his max speed and nowhere does it imply that SM was maxing out anytime in the book. In other words, we don't know SM's max speed.
l.

Hey, nowhere in the book was it implied that Divine Croc was maxing out his speed too!

Its reasonable to see that SM has his speed/defence limits too because he had to use a feint to hit XYS while avoiding XF's double palm. If he was that fast, he could have blocked both XF's palm and still hit XYS.

[Huang Rong]

Could Yun Zhonghe send out 30 thrusts/palms in a winking as the half-dead-half-alive Linghu Chong did in XAJH?

[PJ]

No, but neither can the Sweeper Monk.

[Whsie]

The point is that even when Sweeper Monk was not fast, he could nevertheless execute stances which are unstoppable to his opponents. If you think that speed is Sweeper Monk's advantage, or that he needs to match Dongfang Bubai's speed to win, then I'm afraid you've underestimated the Sweeper Monk.



You cannot assume he's gonna be in "stable" mode in a fight. If there's evidence that he is susceptible to worse performance due to emotional instability (which there is), then we have to take that piece of information into consideration.

Ok, we're talking about SM here, so he is a little exception to the usual. Furthermore, SM is like >>>>> over DFBB while XF ~ DFBB. In other words, when the 2 levels are near each other, DFBB's speed can be a dangerous advantage.

2 responses to second part. 1) even in angry mode, DFBB still performed incredible and that performance is still enough to give XF a devastating blow. LHC barely escaped that attack and ONLY escaped because DFBB was a little messed up by LHC's taunt. If LHC had not taunted DFBB, then LHC may have possibly been dead because of DFBB's screwed up firmness/control; however, the attack was STILL unavoidable. In other words, in XF's case, it's likely not going to be a big factor since XF in my mind most likely will use bare palms to fight, which means he would have his whole body as a target for DFBB to strike compared to a sword in LHC's hand (which was moving at an incredible speed itself). 2) Let's be honest, do you HONESTLY think that XF would all of a sudden in the battle start talking about his boyfriend? I'm sorry, but I seriously just canNOT imagine XF doing that. I would imagine XF trying to win this fair and square, not using some cheap verbal trick. The point? The point is that DFBB was most likely not be angered by some type of insult by XF and as a result would have optimized performance.

And finally, I just DON'T feel like debating since I literally just had only my 2nd unsuccessful debate tournament (my other one was my first one ever). So.... I'm like in a down mood right now. To make matters worse, my motivator is graduating...., so that doesn't help at all...

[CC]

Ok, we're talking about SM here, so he is a little exception to the usual. Furthermore, SM is like >>>>> over DFBB while XF ~ DFBB. In other words, when the 2 levels are near each other, DFBB's speed can be a dangerous advantage. ...

There is a bit of a circular argument logic error here.

You are using speed descriptions to prove DFBB > XF. But you do not allow speed descriptions when comparing SM to DFBB/XF.

The point of PJ's argument is that he is trying to show incidences in JY novels where speed is not everything, so if you dismiss that aspect, there is nothing left to say.

[Whsie]

There is a bit of a circular argument logic error here.

You are using speed descriptions to prove DFBB > XF. But you do not allow speed descriptions when comparing SM to DFBB/XF.

The point of PJ's argument is that he is trying to show incidences in JY novels where speed is not everything, so if you dismiss that aspect, there is nothing left to say.

The key difference is that DFBB is ~ XF's level and as a result speed can be a significant factor.
I admit the fact that speed is not everything as SM even without speed would somehow still blow the living out of DFBB just with his pure unmatched internal. However, the case cannot be said the same for XF since XF doesn't have that clear super advantage over DFBB. I admit speed is not everything, but to a certain point, it can make up a weaker level (just like how XLN was with the Mongolian warriors).

[Ken Cheng]

I admit speed is not everything, but to a certain point, it can make up a weaker level (just like how XLN was with the Mongolian warriors).

Only temporarily, though. If that fight had gone on longer than it did, the tide would have turned against Little Dragon Girl.

[wang23]

Although I believe speed does play an important factor in an outcome, I think some are taking it a little too extreme. Eg. Green Bat King's speed doesn't make him a great fighter.

[Xiao Feng]

it would not be a stretch to come up with a theory of "slow defeating the fast."

Certainly I have read of such a thing.

Where one must be un-moving to defeat the moving (or some bullshit sounding thing like that). Basically, it is staying steady, calm and focused when faced with a speedy mobile opponent. No point moving around like he does if he is faster and waste precious energy but instead lie in wait, anticipating his moves. As fast as a person can be they can not be faster than the mind. If you know where to look, the opponent telegraphs his moves, and you stay half a step ahead.

Have a look at tennis and Roger Federer. Even the speediest players may not be able to retrieve rocket serves and forehands like Federer can. Simply because of his unbelievable reading of the game and exquisite footwork and form. It enables him to move much sooner, cover the distance and prepare his body to hit the ball, maintaining balance and control.

I refuse to believe someone with the abilities and experience of Xiao Feng in combat will lose just because someone is faster than him (and who knows for sure what their relative speed is anyway). And (this may be influenced by DGSD 03) if he can dodge a point blank dart to the face, he deffo can handle DFBB.

[CC]

The key difference is that DFBB is ~ XF's level and as a result speed can be a significant factor.

OK, lets say DFBB~XF.

But why is DFBB~XF? The biggest contributor to DFBB's prowess was _Speed_.

So saying that DFBB~XF and than saying that DFBB>XF because of his superior speed is kinda double counting isn't it?

[ChronoReverse]

Well, I can accept the DFBB's technique is below that of XF's. XF's technique was certainly very high. But in terms of internal, I'm not so sure DFBB would be far below XF but rather fairly close. After all, the the Sunflower Script isn't so much about refining speed but refining internal energy (of which the sunflower script energy translated to extreme speed).

[K2Grey]

Regardless of how fast someone's mind is, there is a limit to how fast their body can move. In tennis, once you hit the ball you lose control of it. In a wuxia fight, a palm, once sent out, can be changed into another palm. In order to deal with this, a certain relative level of speed and reflexes are required by the defender (unless you are Xu Zhu in which case you stand there and the opponent kills himself).

[PJ]

Regardless of how fast someone's mind is, there is a limit to how fast their body can move.

This excellent assertion beautifully captures the essence of theory vs practice.

[CC]

Regardless of how fast someone's mind is, there is a limit to how fast their body can move.

In real life, it can be the other way. The body can react before it registers on the mind. (e.g. touching hot surfaces).

In wuxia, well, YTZ demonstrated this at Shaolin. He defended subconciously before his mind could react.

But this is all OT. Doesn't help the current debate.

[PJ]

If I interpret what K2grey was saying, it can actually be broadened and applied to martial arts in general: basically, people can have great ideas and theories about fancy moves... but it's always up to the body to execute the moves. Therefore, the body (or: the practioner) is the limit.

[Xiao Feng]

Actually, humans all have relatively the same reaction speed. And that's because the time it takes for a brain signal to go to the hands to do something, is the same. Then why is it that Michael Schumacher can do what he does and I can't? That's because Michael Schumacher can process a lot of information and react accordingly in total calm at 200mph whilst tackling corners and other cars, while I would just overload, panic and crash. And that's because Schumacher has talent, practice and experience that I don't have.

And yes, there is a limit to how fast your body can move. Which is why the speed in which you think make you seem faster, because you move earlier. Which is why I was talking about anticipation earlier. Regardless of how many changes you may make mid-strike, your strike begins from the trunk of your body, through your shoulders and then your arms. By reading your body language an expert can see your intent and react accordingly. Even if you change one strike to another midway, it still originates from the trunk of the body and therefore the same applies.

[Huang Rong]

Somewhere in Xiao Ao Jiang Hu, Jin Yong wrote that how fast the qing gong skill of a fighter is _merely_ depends on how much internal energy she/he has.
Dongfang Bubai's qing gong reached the level of perfection therefore his/her internal energy must be extremely high.

[Ken Cheng]

Somewhere in Xiao Ao Jiang Hu, Jin Yong wrote that how fast the qing gong skill of a fighter is _merely_ depends on how much internal energy she/he has.

This is contradicted by what Jin Yong showed in ROCH, however. Little Dragon Girl's inner power was far weaker than any of the Greats'...a point that Jin Yong highlighted several times in ROCH; Little Dragon Girl's hing gung, however, was better than any of the Greats'.

[Huang Rong]

This is contradicted by what Jin Yong showed in ROCH, however. Little Dragon Girl's inner power was far weaker than any of the Greats'...a point that Jin Yong highlighted several times in ROCH; Little Dragon Girl's hing gung, however, was better than any of the Greats'.

that's not necessarily contradictory, since Jin Yong only wrote so in Xiao Ao Jiang Hu. i mean, in the XAJH frame of reference, the faster the lightness skill of a fighter is, the more abundant his/her energy is.
this deduction can not be applied to DGSD and the Condor Trilogy.