The Official Kiu Fung vs. Gwok Jing Thread

[PJ]

exchanged blows as in a palm clash? or as in i hit u in the stomach and u hit me in the chest kinda of exchange? if it was a single palm clash then, it is doubtful that a Great can injure the Xuantong monk to the extent YTZ got him to. if it was the 2nd case of exchange, then its doable.

but no doubt, in either case, this was YTZ's top badass moment.

It was a simple exchange of fists. Nothing fancy.

[Loke-Gao-Zhu]

xiao feng's morale is way better

he just gives me a feeling that he can kick anyone's *** when he's pissed

[Snafu3721]

My 2 cents:

Guo Jing definitely had enough internal energy to handle Xiao Feng, you say? No proof.

By handle, I mean he wouldn't get his arms broken just by clashing palms with XF. There is no solid evidence on who has higher internal energy, but I think it's a fair assessment that GJ wouldn't turn into mush if hit. (I mean, if Ah Zhu can survive and not explode-- GJ should be ok.)

There have been plenty of times where GJ fought opponents of higher internal energy, sometimes actually beating them. One instance was when he fought OYK when they were proposing for HR's hand in marriage. It was stated that OYK was still more experienced and had more internal energy, but because GJ had superior techniques (L/R and some bits of 9-yin) that he broke OYK's rib in one palm exchange.

You Tanzhi didn't just have massive internal power. He had POISONOUS internal power which makes him more dangerous than normal practioners.

You Tanzhi is someone who injured a Xuan generation monk in ONE stance. Can any of the Greats do that? I have high doubts.

I definitely agree that YTZ's strikes weren't just ordinary attacks with lots of chi. They were definitely portrayed as MUCH more dangerous and powerful. However, I always wondered what the damage factor of these posionous palms really are.

For exmaple, in LOCH, one of the Jin mercenaries also had poisonous palms. The one that poisoned Wang Chu Yi (the QZ taoist that needed the herbs right before GJ discovered HR is a girl). QQR's also had the iron palm that caused HR to be "poisoned," and LMC had her 5 posions palm. But it appears that when they fought opponents of equal caliber, the poisons don't pose ADDITIONAL threat. Meaning, that without the posion aspect, the palms were already dangerous... but by having the posion, it didn't make them more powerful against someone of similar skill.

[PJ]

By handle, I mean he wouldn't get his arms broken just by clashing palms with XF.

Assuming Qiao Feng does not use LDA.
We have no idea how the Greats would handle a LDA from the DGSD Elites, or if they can handle it at all.

There is no solid evidence on who has higher internal energy, but I think it's a fair assessment that GJ wouldn't turn into mush if hit. (I mean, if Ah Zhu can survive and not explode-- GJ should be ok.)

But then, one LDA from Xiao Feng almost turned Zhao Qiansun into mush. The novel suggested that if the Xuan generation monks had not intercepted Xiao Feng's palm, Zhao Qiansun would have suffered an instant death. The Ah Zhu incident is a major goof and should bear little merit in a serious discussion.

There have been plenty of times where GJ fought opponents of higher internal energy, sometimes actually beating them. One instance was when he fought OYK when they were proposing for HR's hand in marriage. It was stated that OYK was still more experienced and had more internal energy, but because GJ had superior techniques (L/R and some bits of 9-yin) that he broke OYK's rib in one palm exchange.

In that case, Guo Jing had better technique while Ouyang Ke had more internal energy, so they can be considered more evenly matched. But Ouyang Ke is not a fighting sage like Xiao Feng. It's probably more helpful to compare the ROCH Guo Jing with Xiao Feng.

However, I always wondered what the damage factor of these posionous palms really are.

For exmaple, in LOCH, one of the Jin mercenaries also had poisonous palms. The one that poisoned Wang Chu Yi (the QZ taoist that needed the herbs right before GJ discovered HR is a girl). QQR's also had the iron palm that caused HR to be "poisoned," and LMC had her 5 posions palm. But it appears that when they fought opponents of equal caliber, the poisons don't pose ADDITIONAL threat. Meaning, that without the posion aspect, the palms were already dangerous... but by having the posion, it didn't make them more powerful against someone of similar skill.

Pertaining to Qiu Qianren... frankly, I wonder just how much toxicity is in the Iron Sand Palm, if LOCH Guo Jing was able to match palms with Qiu Qianren to some extent. On the other hand, we have confidence that You Tanzhi's icy palm can take out a Xuan generation monk in one stance, AND provide great discomfort to Xiao Feng. This means You Tanzhi's palm toxicity is more effective than Qiu Qianren's Iron Palm, IMO.

[Snafu3721]

Assuming Qiao Feng does not use LDA.
We have no idea how the Greats would handle a LDA from the DGSD Elites, or if they can handle it at all.

Agreed... no idea how LDA's would work in this scenario.

But then, one LDA from Xiao Feng almost turned Zhao Qiansun into mush. The novel suggested that if the Xuan generation monks had not intercepted Xiao Feng's palm, Zhao Qiansun would have suffered an instant death. The Ah Zhu incident is a major goof and should bear little merit in a serious discussion.

Hahaha! I know... I couldn't help it when it came to Ah Zhu.

In that case, Guo Jing had better technique while Ouyang Ke had more internal energy, so they can be considered more evenly matched. But Ouyang Ke is not a fighting sage like Xiao Feng. It's probably more helpful to compare the ROCH Guo Jing with Xiao Feng.

I used that example to show that higher internal doesn't always determine the victor--referring back to GJ being able to "handle" XF or not. So as long as GJ has the physical capability of enduring a palm from XF in any form (whether it be a palm clash, a block, or even sustaining injury) then there is room for GJ to stand a chance of defeating XF.

Pertaining to Qiu Qianren... frankly, I wonder just how much toxicity is in the Iron Sand Palm, if LOCH Guo Jing was able to match palms with Qiu Qianren to some extent. On the other hand, we have confidence that You Tanzhi's icy palm can take out a Xuan generation monk in one stance, AND provide great discomfort to Xiao Feng. This means You Tanzhi's palm toxicity is more effective than Qiu Qianren's Iron Palm, IMO.

Definitely agreed. I think YTZ's was perhaps the most toxic of all. But as a measure of XF's palm power, I think it's not sufficient just to say since XF can clash palms with YTZ, then XF can beat GJ in a palm clash.

It's not a perfect comparison, but I believe GJ should be able to handle toxic palms as well. Since ZWJ can fend off the Xuam Ming elder's toxic palms, it implies that someone with GJ's internal should be able to too. This being based on the statement that ZSF made about ZWJ's level of internal being equal to GJ's during the Wu Dang seige.

[PJ]

Well, Xiao Feng likes to put up an aggressive fight while Guo Jing's style is more sophisticated, bearing a harmony between hard and soft concurrently. It seems, the traditional Chinese value would prefer Guo Jing's style. When Jin Yong described extremely high level martial arts, they are often described in a manner similar to Guo Jing's embodiment of softness and hardness. For example Zhang Sanfeng's hardness rising out of the ultimate softness, and how the Sweeper Monk can overcome Xiao Feng's hardness with softness (when his gentle invisible wall dissipated XL18Z).

Yet, the stylistic superiority does not decide the winner, for it is only a small piece of the greater picture. It is ultimately the practioner's individual ability as illustrated by his combat performance in the novels which may reveal his true competency and guide us through our decision. From a martial artist's perspective, Guo Jing's style can be considered better, but From a practioner's perspective, Xiao Feng's combat performance is more impressive (at least, that is my impression).

I think YTZ's was perhaps the most toxic of all. But as a measure of XF's palm power, I think it's not sufficient just to say since XF can clash palms with YTZ, then XF can beat GJ in a palm clash.

I don't envision the fight between Xiao and Guo to simply be a collection of palm clashes. But based on your logic, it would indeed seem that Xiao Feng should beat Guo Jing in a palm clash:

1. You Tanzhi DISABLED Xuan monk in one stance; Greats can't disable Xuan monk in one stance (assumption based on performances).

2. Xiao Feng can launch deadly LDAs; Greats can't launch deadly LDAs (evidenced by performances).

3. Xiao Feng can match palms with You Tanzhi, albeit with difficulty.

4. Xiao Feng/You Tanzhi > Greats in direct palm clash.

It's not a perfect comparison, but I believe GJ should be able to handle toxic palms as well. Since ZWJ can fend off the Xuam Ming elder's toxic palms, it implies that someone with GJ's internal should be able to too. This being based on the statement that ZSF made about ZWJ's level of internal being equal to GJ's during the Wu Dang seige.

Guo Jing can surely deal with Xuanming Divine palm with no problem... but that doesn't mean he can deal with You Tanzhi's palm. Zhang Wuji could easily defeat the Xuanming Elders, while Xiao Feng's internal was on par with You Tanzhi's. Guo Jing would not hope to win by matching palms with You Tanzhi. He would need to capitalize on You's poor techniques.

I always believed Guo Jing would outperform Xiao Feng if he were to face You + Murong. Xiao Feng made the mistake to fight the duo the hard way. I envision Guo Jing's more refined fighting method should give the opponents more difficulty.

[S Beaver]

My 2 cents:

Guo Jing definitely had enough internal energy to handle Xiao Feng, you say? No proof.

why not ask the other way round? XF will have enough energy to handle GJ? proof?

not to mention, GJ as simple minded as he is, does have more tricks up his sleeve. he is much more balanced and unreliant on raw power.

unless XF can defeat GJ within 300 stances or something (which i highly doubt), i would give the edge to GJ.

[PJ]

why not ask the other way round? XF will have enough energy to handle GJ? proof?

Please note that I was simply responding to a point made by Snafu. I did not make the claim that Xiao Feng can handle Guo Jing.

Logically speaking based on the combat performances, Xiao Feng should have more internal energy because he is extremely adept at performing LDAs. And he did not stop at weaker opponents. He performed LDAs against Murong Bo also. How would Guo Jing handle Xiao Feng's deadly LDAs? That is something I would personally be interested in knowing.

[S Beaver]

Please note that I was simply responding to a point made by Snafu. I did not make the claim that Xiao Feng can handle Guo Jing.

Logically speaking based on the combat performances, Xiao Feng should have more internal energy because he is extremely adept at performing LDAs. And he did not stop at weaker opponents. He performed LDAs against Murong Bo also. How would Guo Jing handle Xiao Feng's deadly LDAs? That is something I would personally be interested in knowing.

why not? although there was not solid evidence that GJ can perform LDA (or the way you guys define it), it did not say he couldn't. secondly, even if one would consider XF to be more internal energy, don't forget GJ was able to handle a hands on battle with H7G when he was only at <70% compared to H7G (who was at that point going all out). i see no reason that XF would be anywhere near 30% higher in terms of internal energy than GJ nor how LDA can be more deadly than than a hands on match.

[PJ]

why not? although there was not solid evidence that GJ can perform LDA (or the way you guys define it), it did not say he couldn't. secondly, even if one would consider XF to be more internal energy, don't forget GJ was able to handle a hands on battle with H7G when he was only at <70% compared to H7G (who was at that point going all out). i see no reason that XF would be anywhere near 30% higher in terms of internal energy than GJ nor how LDA can be more deadly than than a hands on match.

When Guo Jing fought Hong Qigong and Huang Yaoshi at the end of LOCH, they were competing MARTIAL ARTS, not trying to kill each other. There is a difference between the two different intentions. For example, a nearly dead Xiao Feng could still TIE his father in a contest of martial arts. Xiao Feng at that time did not even have enough energy to move his body, and yet he could fend off Xiao Yuanshan! But if Xiao Yuanshan had really wanted to kill Xiao Feng that time, or if Xiao Feng was facing Murong Bo or Jiumozhi, he would have been dead meat. So no, I don't think Hong Qigong was going "all out" during a friendly contest of advanced martial arts techniques.

As for LDA, sorry, but the Greats can't do it (at least nowhere near the extent to the which DGSD Elites illustrated), otherwise they would have done it at some point throughout the 120 chapters of the Condor Trilogy.

[PJ]

Here is an example of the attacking range that Guo Jing is capable of:

郭靖大喝一声，负着杨过向忽必烈扑去，只三四个起伏，已窜到他身前。左右卫护亲兵
大惊，十余人挺着长刀长矛上前阻拦。郭靖掌风虎虎，当者披靡，一名亲兵被他掌力扫得向
外跌开，只须再抢前数步，掌力便可及忽必烈之身。

Guo Jing was injured and had to carry Yang Guo on his back (i.e. unable to tap into his maximum power). He had dashed in front of Kublai Khan. Several soldiers tried to stop him. Guo Jing's palm wind blasted one soldier away (but was unable to injure him). If Guo Jing had been several feet closer to Khan, his palm wind would have reached Khan.

Now, the novel says that Guo Jing is IN FRONT OF the Khan. Based on this description, I envision the distance to be 20 feet or less. And yet, it is specifically said that Guo Jing was unable to reach Khan from this distance. Furthermore, when Guo Jing unleashed his palm wind, it was only able to SHOVE a soldier, not injure the soldier. Now, the distance between Guo Jing and the soldier must be closer than compared to Guo Jing and the Khan. And yet, Guo Jing could only do a LDS, not LDA. Even considering Guo Jing is injured and had Yang Guo... well, Deng Baichuan in DGSD could unleashed a deadlier palm wind while injured. The LDX scene certainly doesn't look too favorable for Guo Jing.

[Ken Cheng]

Deng Baichuan in DGSD could unleashed a deadlier palm wind while injured. The LDX scene certainly doesn't look too favorable for Guo Jing.

The thing is, though, do you *really* believe that ROCH Greats are equivalent to or less than second- and third-tier DGSD fighters, LD or no LD?

LDS is just something I took too much of during the 60s.

[Huang Rong]

@PJ:
IIRC, in chapter 19 of Xiao Ao Jiang Hu, Great Yin Yang Palm Yuehou, a 3rd tier fighter, could execute a 1 zhang LDA! Therefore using LDA to conclude tat Xiao Feng is superior to Guo Jing is unstable.

LDS is just something I took too much of during the 60s.

Do you mean LSD aka L_ucy in the S_ky with D_iamonds, Senior Master?

[Ken Cheng]

Do you mean LSD aka L_ucy in the S_ky with D_iamonds, Senior Master?

It's a STAR TREK joke, Miss. See STAR TREK IV: THE VOYAGE HOME for details.

[Huang Rong]

It's a STAR TREK joke, Miss. See STAR TREK IV: THE VOYAGE HOME for details.

Lol, sorry for misunderstanding your words, SM, I thought that you took a lot of LSD during the 60s.

[Ken Cheng]

Lol, sorry for misunderstanding your words, SM, I thought that you took a lot of LSD during the 60s.

It would have been hard for me to take *anything* back in the 60s considering that I wasn't born until 1972.

[PJ]

@PJ:
IIRC, in chapter 19 of Xiao Ao Jiang Hu, Great Yin Yang Palm Yuehou, a 3rd tier fighter, could execute a 1 zhang LDA! Therefore using LDA to conclude tat Xiao Feng is superior to Guo Jing is unstable.

Actually, He's a 4th or 5th tier fighter in SPW.

To be completely fair, Guo Jing *might* be able to execute a 1 zhang LDA under the same circumstances as Yue Hou. But his circumstances in ROCH were extremely unfavorable because:

1) Guo Jing was heavily injured at the time
2) He had to carry Yang Guo on his back
3) He had to use his palm wind to fend off over TEN soldiers, probably covering a broad horizontal distance. Whereas, Xiao Feng's LDA seems to be very precise, hitting a specific target only. For example when he fired the LDAs at Ding Chunqiu, Ah Zi was just next to Ding and Ah Zi was not said to feel any pressure like Ding did.

I don't think Xiao Feng is necessarily superior to Guo Jing overall. But Xiao Feng is quite obviously better in terms of LDA, and I posed the question of how Guo Jing might cope with aggressive LDAs.

[CC]

If we disregard the bit about Xu Zhu being cautious.

When he was still inexperienced, he took over 10 full power hits from JMZ without getting even bruised.

A few chapters later, when he faced YTZ, he was actually very wary of YTZ's poison palm.

YTZ might actually be the biggest hitter in DGSD short of Sweeper Monk and XZ.

[Ken Cheng]

If we disregard the bit about Xu Zhu being cautious.

When he was still inexperienced, he took over 10 full power hits from JMZ without getting even bruised.

A few chapters later, when he faced YTZ, he was actually very wary of YTZ's poison palm.

YTZ might actually be the biggest hitter in DGSD short of Sweeper Monk and XZ.

Was it the force of impact that worried Hui Juk, or was it the poison?

[PJ]

But Xuzhu was even cautious about Ding Chunqiu's stupid hits. I think he may have reached the peak of extremity in CAUTION.

CAUTION GOD Xuzhu