The Official Kiu Fung vs. Gwok Jing Thread

[CC]

Can a 20 year old GJ defeat a 30 year old Xiao Feng? Not a chance. Can a 30 year old Guo Jing defeat a 30 year old Xiao Feng? A draw wouldn't be out of the question. Can a 36 year old Guo Jing defeat a 30 year old Xiao Feng? It's looking better. Can a 56 year old Guo Jing defeat a 32 year old Xiao Feng? Probably.

Can a 20 yr old GJ beat XF? Fat Hope. Can a 30 yr old GJ beat XF? No way. Can a 36 yr old GJ beat XF? Unlikely. Can a 56 year old Guo Jing beat a 32 yr old XF? I can't prove anything except that JY still says that XF's palms are more lethal.

[Ken Cheng]

I can't prove anything except that JY still says that XF's palms are more lethal.

Perhaps, but there's more to winning martial arts fights than hitting people with Hong Lung 18 Palms.

[Ren Ying Ying]

Yes, my conjecture. But my conjecture was based on the novel.
In DGSD, while fighting in the Shaolin temple, Ding Chunqiu and Murong Fu had to leap backward 3 zhangs to be on alert against Xiao Feng.
In Xiao Ao Jiang Hu, the 3 fights also occured in a ground of the Shaolin temple, there must have been a lot of room for the fighters to perform any move/stance which they wanted.
Why XAJH masters didn't do what Morong Fu and Ding Chunqiu did? Why did they stand close to Fang Zheng and Ren Woxing within only 1 zhang?

mind you though that fighting in wuxia is not all about having distance...it isn't a shooting war.

[Huang Rong]

well, i'm trying to prove that: In SPW, LDA can't be used to classify fighters.

[Ren Ying Ying]

sorry sorry, i meant not to direct it at you

[ChronoReverse]

Why XAJH masters didn't do what Morong Fu and Ding Chunqiu did? Why did they stand close to Fang Zheng and Ren Woxing within only 1 zhang?

This is the reason

I think the radius of the crowd at that time was 1 zhang long.

I could just as easily say, "I think they were further than that."


Besides, the so-called evidence you've provide is less than even circumstantial and furthermore, other just as circumstancial evidence can easily explain it. Indeed you could say it was provided by JY himself.

That is, FZ was using a martial art that was stifling RWX. RWX actually felt that his internal energy was being sluggish and starting to fall under the control of FZ.

Also, FZ was using a not particularly fierce palm, but one that appeared as a multiplicity (i.e. technique and subtle internal energy rather than a blast). RWX was also using a stiff fist technique that nonetheless was able to get where it needed to be. Again, not a fierce blasting type attack.

Does that mean it's impossible for them to launch blasting attacks? Of course not. XF using Luo Han Fist didn't exactly blast LDAs. But when he used an appropriate technique (Proud Dragon Regret IIRC) then that was the result.

[Huang Rong]

This is the reasonI could just as easily say, "I think they were further than that."

No you can't. A stride of a mature man I think is 1+ meter long (1/3 zhang).
At the beginning of the fight, both of them stand at the center of the circle formed by the bystanders.
Then they clashed palms, Ren Woxing forced the Abbot to take 3 steps backward ~ 1 zhang.
Abbot Fang Zheng counter-attacked and forced Ren Woxing to take 3 steps backward ~ 1 zhang.
At this time, the two fighters returned to the initial places.
The monk continued sending out his 1000 Rulai Palms, Ren Woxing took 2 steps backward once again ~ 2/3 zhang.
Ren Woxing turned around and grabbed Yu Canghai's chest. Because an arm length of Ren Woxing was probably ~ 1/3 zhang.
--> Therefore the initial distance between Ren Woxing and Yu Canghai was ~ 1 zhang.
--> The distance between Fang Zheng and Ren Woxing, at the time Ren grabbed Yu Canghai, was probably ~ 1.5 zhang.
--> The monk jumped forward to attack Ren Woxing --> The LDA of Fang Zheng lauched toward Ren Woxing's head was at most 1 zhang.

Besides, the so-called evidence you've provide is less than even circumstantial and furthermore, other just as circumstancial evidence can easily explain it. Indeed you could say it was provided by JY himself.
That is, FZ was using a martial art that was stifling RWX. RWX actually felt that his internal energy was being sluggish and starting to fall under the control of FZ.
Also, FZ was using a not particularly fierce palm, but one that appeared as a multiplicity (i.e. technique and subtle internal energy rather than a blast). RWX was also using a stiff fist technique that nonetheless was able to get where it needed to be. Again, not a fierce blasting type attack.
Does that mean it's impossible for them to launch blasting attacks? Of course not. XF using Luo Han Fist didn't exactly blast LDAs. But when he used an appropriate technique (Proud Dragon Regret IIRC) then that was the result.

Your arguments seem to be logical.
But you still can't beat my main points:
- Why weren't XAJH people afraid of LDA?
- Why were DGSD people afraid of LDA?
- What is Jin Yong's intention in creating that difference?

[ChronoReverse]

*snip*
--> The monk jumped forward to attack Ren Woxing --> The LDA of Fang Zheng lauched toward Ren Woxing's head was at most 1 zhang.

Do you know why this doesn't make sense? Because if they really were just 1 zhang apart, the lead edge of the LDA would be barely ahead of FZ. At this kind of range, LDA is pointless. In fact, it's worse than pointless since LDAs tend (not always; e.g. specialized LDAs) to be slower since you actually have to launch it. Some LDAs even move slower than a martial artist can (e.g. XF's triple merged one).

Your arguments seem to be logical.
But you still can't beat my main points:
- Why weren't XAJH people afraid of LDA?
- Why were DGSD people afraid of LDA?
- What is Jin Yong's intention in creating that difference?

First off, it was clear from the beginning that this was a sparring match. It was dangerous for sure, but it wasn't meant to be a deadly duel. Otherwise why bother having the agreement of whether they're allowed down the mountain?

Second, it was also clear that the martial arts being displayed were not the fierce type. In a later battle where fierce martial arts were being used, the forces "rocked the room".

Thirdly, I do not think the XAJH fighters were of such poor caliber as to be standing still during the fight. They weren't directly competing internal energy and it's clear that RWX isn't a stiff-neck like YBQ.

Finally, if FZ was capable of a launching a killing blow at 1 zhang (enough to burst even RWX's head open like a ripe fruit), do you think that same LDA would suddenly disappear as it crosses the 1 zhang mark?

[Huang Rong]

Do you know why this doesn't make sense? Because if they really were just 1 zhang apart, the lead edge of the LDA would be barely ahead of FZ. At this kind of range, LDA is pointless. In fact, it's worse than pointless since LDAs tend (not always; e.g. specialized LDAs) to be slower since you actually have to launch it. Some LDAs even move slower than a martial artist can (e.g. XF's triple merged one).

All you wrote only proves that Fang Zheng didn't have faith in his LDA being able to cross > 1 zhang. Just take a look at DGSD elite fighters, you see, they used LDA to attack the opponents as soon as possible.
According to CC, and I agree with him, in the thread "The Ultimate Consolidated Discussion Pertaining to LONG DISTANCE ATTACK (LDA)" of PJ, the LDA of *really elite* fighters could move as fast as the speed of themselves, for ex: Li Qiushui, Xiao Feng.
Plus, in the fight with Dongfang Bubai's subordinates atop Heng Shan mountain, that was a deadly fight and Fang Zheng did NOT execute any LDA.

First off, it was clear from the beginning that this was a sparring match. It was dangerous for sure, but it wasn't meant to be a deadly duel. Otherwise why bother having the agreement of whether they're allowed down the mountain?
Second, it was also clear that the martial arts being displayed were not the fierce type. In a later battle where fierce martial arts were being used, the forces "rocked the room".

Yeah, those 3 fights were just to determine who would win, not fight to death. But was there any rule which forbad the fighters *suddenly* lauching LDA? Certainly No.
And the bystanders all knew that. But they still stood rather close to the fighters, since they also knew that LDAs in XAJH era were not as good as those in DGSD era, even the 1st tier masters such as Fang Zheng and Ren Woxing cound't harm them from the distance of > 1 zhang.

Thirdly, I do not think the XAJH fighters were of such poor caliber as to be standing still during the fight. They weren't directly competing internal energy and it's clear that RWX isn't a stiff-neck like YBQ.

The fighters didn't stand still during the fight, Fang Zheng and Ren Woxing one after the other took steps forward and backward after clashing palms.

Finally, if FZ was capable of a launching a killing blow at 1 zhang (enough to burst even RWX's head open like a ripe fruit), do you think that same LDA would suddenly disappear as it crosses the 1 zhang mark?

I think it wouldn't disappear since that goes against physics. But I think when the LDA crosses the max effect range, its energy is reduced remarkably so that it no loger can injure the opponent.
Well, mathematically, I think LDA's effect is a function of s, with s is the distance between the LDAer and the opponent.
Each LDAer has his/her own max range.
If s < or = the max range, the power is constant.
But If s > the max range, then the LDA would have no effect on the target.

[ChronoReverse]

All you wrote only proves that Fang Zheng didn't have faith in his LDA being able to cross > 1 zhang. Just take a look at DGSD elite fighters, you see, they used LDA to attack the opponents as soon as possible.
According to CC, and I agree with him, in the thread "The Ultimate Consolidated Discussion Pertaining to LONG DISTANCE ATTACK (LDA)" of PJ, the LDA of *really elite* fighters could move as fast as the speed of themselve, for ex: Li Qiushui, Xiao Feng.

The point is that FZ didn't launch an LDA at all. It's just that the attack was so powerful that it was effectively an LDA. It was saying "even just the palm wind was enough to burst RWX's head", not, "FZ shot a blast of palm wind to burst RWX's head."

Plus it was clear in DGSD that LDAs were pretty ineffective. They usually missed or were seen coming a mile away and sidestepped or dissipated. Using the same type of circumstantial reasoning, you could just say that the XAJH elites were all smart enough to know that LDAs are unreliable.

And the bystanders all knew that. But they still stood rather close to the fighters, since they also knew that LDAs in XAJH era were not as good as those in DGSD era, even the 1st tier masters such as Fang Zheng and Ren Woxing cound't harm them from the distance of > 1 zhang.

You have not yet proven but only given circumstantial evidence that they *might* have been 1 zhang distance (which incidentally, is STILL too short of a distance to surround any fight). But that's the absolute minimum possible, not a certainty.

Furthermore, if it were true that they were staying out of 1 zhang range, why on earth did YCH not step further away when RWX merely stepped back two steps? By your argument, RWC would be within 1 zhang and easily inside the supposed LDA range. If YCH really was thinking about LDA, he would've stepped back.


I'd say more likely they were at the edges of the room or standing near columns. Because the fight was dynamic, it wasn't unusual for RWX and FZ to get close to some spectators. Hence YCH's being surprised by the grapple despite being a master (RWX getting close wasn't unusual, but the grab out of nowhere was; that only worked because he was close). However, neither fighters were releasing truly fierce attacks as evidenced by the duel of technique coupled with XAJH's brand of subtle internal energy (much closer to Vacuum Fist for instance as opposed to Iron Sand Palms).

The fighters didn't stand still during the fight, Fang Zheng and Ren Woxing one after the other took steps forward and backward after clashing palms.

That's effectively standing still if they only moved after being hit. Think about one of the martial arts theme of the elite in XAJH: that is, unrestrained strikes and movement. It's something the true elites understood while the lower tier didn't.

They would be moving around during fight but the narrative would only describe the notable, that is, when a clash forced someone to step back. It's pretty clear that the intent is that they're moving at least some during fights because whenever someone didn't move in the novel, it was extraordinary and described as such (that is, when LHC was forced to do that due to his injuries).

[Huang Rong]

The point is that FZ didn't launch an LDA at all. It's just that the attack was so powerful that it was effectively an LDA. It was saying "even just the palm wind was enough to burst RWX's head", not, "FZ shot a blast of palm wind to burst RWX's head."
Plus it was clear in DGSD that LDAs were pretty ineffective. They usually missed or were seen coming a mile away and sidestepped or dissipated. Using the same type of circumstantial reasoning, you could just say that the XAJH elites were all smart enough to know that LDAs are unreliable.

No, in DGSD, LDAs were rather effective. Xiao Feng's LDA beat the Demi God Sweeper Monk to spitting blood, Duan Yu's LDAs smashed Murong Fu, Murong Bo's LDA shocked people and Li Quishui's 5 zhang LDA was capable of killing the impossible-to-be-disadvantaged Xuzhu.
Effectiveness of LDA depends on the MA of the LDAer and the situation of the fight.
Furthermore, why didn't Fang Zheng use LDA during the fight atop Heng Shan? If he was smarter than DGSD elite fighters, and really mastered LDA technique he must have realized that using LDA in that situation to attack Dongfang's subordinates would be safer for him + Chongxu + Linghu Chong.

You have not yet proven but only given circumstantial evidence that they *might* have been 1 zhang distance (which incidentally, is STILL too short of a distance to surround any fight). But that's the absolute minimum possible, not a certainty.

*might* is not a suitable word for my conjecture, instead, it should be *probably*
since I used Jin Yong words and some facts.

Furthermore, if it were true that they were staying out of 1 zhang range, why on earth did YCH not step further away when RWX merely stepped back two steps? By your argument, RWC would be within 1 zhang and easily inside the supposed LDA range. If YCH really was thinking about LDA, he would've stepped back.

Well, when Ren Woxing took 2 steps back, Yu Canghai was standing in his back so there was no need for him to step backward.

That's effectively standing still if they only moved after being hit. Think about one of the martial arts theme of the elite in XAJH: that is, unrestrained strikes and movement. It's something the true elites understood while the lower tier didn't.

No, Jin Yong didn't write as you conjecture. He only wrote that Fang Zheng and Ren Woxing stepped forward or backward after clashing palms.

They would be moving around during fight but the narrative would only describe the notable, that is, when a clash forced someone to step back. It's pretty clear that the intent is that they're moving at least some during fights because whenever someone didn't move in the novel, it was extraordinary and described as such (that is, when LHC was forced to do that due to his injuries).

Jin Yong was always meticulous in describing the fights in his novels, if he didn't write that someone did something during a fight, that nearly means that person didn't do that thing.

[S Beaver]

No, in DGSD, LDAs were rather effective. Xiao Feng's LDA beat the Demi God Sweeper Monk to spitting blood, Duan Yu's LDAs smashed Murong Fu, Murong Bo's LDA shocked people and Li Quishui's 5 zhang LDA was capable of killing the impossible-to-be-disadvantaged Xuzhu.
Effectiveness of LDA depends on the MA of the LDAer and the situation of the fight.
Furthermore, why didn't Fang Zheng use LDA during the fight atop Heng Shan? If he was smarter than DGSD elite fighters, and really mastered LDA technique he must have realized that using LDA in that situation to attack Dongfang's subordinates would be safer for him + Chongxu + Linghu Chong.

JY's wuxia characters tend not to have the same exact "safety" thoughts and precautions as modern humans

No, in DGSD, LDAs were rather effective. Xiao Feng's LDA beat the Demi God Sweeper Monk to spitting blood, Duan Yu's LDAs smashed Murong Fu, Murong Bo's LDA shocked people and Li Quishui's 5 zhang LDA was capable of killing the impossible-to-be-disadvantaged Xuzhu.

I think XF make a direct hit on sweeper dude. there is too much of a gap between the power of "effective" DY and MRF (not to mention LDA was the only thing DY could do). LQS didn't manage to kill XZ...that's the key point. I'm quite sure that Fang Zheng's palm was capable of killing RWX, but it doens't mean it did kill/hurt RWX.

on a side note, i always had the idea that LDA was a natural thing that came with all palm/finger/etc techniques, not something that had to be learned outside. Though of course, true masters should just be able to precisely control the distance and power. as H7G puts it, 能发能收.

[PJ]

on a side note, i always had the idea that LDA was a natural thing that came with all palm/finger/etc techniques, not something that had to be learned outside. Though of course, true masters should just be able to precisely control the distance and power. as H7G puts it, 能发能收.

It seems logical for most cases though, that the more powerful the fighter, the greater the attacking range. Not everyone will have the competence do perform LDA. So, Fighters who have not reached the level of being able to produce LDA are just too weak to do it.

[ChronoReverse]

XF smacked SM directly with his palms. You are correct, S Beaver.


I also think that as your normal attacks become more powerful, a sort of LDA is attached to it. Nonetheless, there's also specialty LDAs that can go further than that it seems.

[Huang Rong]

Lol, my memory fooled me, so the Demi God sustained a direct palm of XF's. I'm so sorry for this. But I disagree that LDA is ineffective. that depends on the situation.

[S Beaver]

Lol, my memory fooled me, so the Demi God sustained a direct palm of XF's. I'm so sorry for this. But I disagree that LDA is ineffective. that depends on the situation.

of course! everything in the world must have an environmental factor. LDA can be effective or ineffective depending on the conditions of the fight. thus, when looking at fights, just b/c someone choses not to go the so-called "long" doesn't mean they can't do it (unless specifically said so)

[R!chard]

Perhaps, but there's more to winning martial arts fights than hitting people with Hong Lung 18 Palms.

Such as?.....

[Ken Cheng]

Such as?.....

This is one of the deepest philosophies of martial arts. If you wish to understand, you must practice your martial arts for another twenty years.

[Huang Rong]

of course! everything in the world must have an environmental factor. LDA can be effective or ineffective depending on the conditions of the fight. thus, when looking at fights, just b/c someone choses not to go the so-called "long" doesn't mean they can't do it (unless specifically said so)

LOL the former reply of mine to this post of S Beaver was vanished so I have to re-post another.
- Because Jin Yong doesn't write anything about the max range of LDA in XAJH so there'll be no absolutely right conclusion about this matter.
- But because NO character in XAJH executed an LDA which acrossed > 1 zhang, even in extremely vital circumstances, and because the people in XAJH didn't show their apprehension for the LDA ability of elite masters so the *probability* for my conjecture to be right is much bigger than for yours.

[Ren Wo Xing]

In XAJH, martial arts generally were not as 'blatantly' powerful (with the exception of DG9J and KHBD), but in many, many, many ways, they were subtly shown to be on extremely high levels.