View Poll Results: Who would win a Kiu Fung vs. Gwok Jing struggle?

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  • Kiu Fung

    37 61.67%
  • Gwok Jing

    17 28.33%
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Thread: The Official Kiu Fung vs. Gwok Jing Thread

  1. #1
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default The Official Kiu Fung vs. Gwok Jing Thread

    It's always the obvious battles we neglect to do.

    Kiu Fung and Gwok Jing...both heroes among heroes who each mastered the Hong Lung 28/18 Palms. One is the epitome of martial arts ferocity, the other the symbol of a solid martial arts foundation. What if they were to engage in an epic struggle to see who was the better fighter?

    This would very likely be a very long, bitter fight, and I see Kiu Fung prevailing, but just *barely*. Gwok Jing would push Kiu Fung to his limit more than any other single opponent Kiu Fung had ever faced (the all-powerful Janitor Monk excluded). Even though Kiu Fung wins, he will be seriously wounded in the fight, and some of those wounds might even be permanent. Moreover, although Gwok Jing probably doesn't win the fight, he won't necessarily die either. If Gwok Jing survives, however, his injuries are just as severe or slightly more severe than Kiu Fung's.

    I see no resolution within 1,000 strokes.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Huang Rong's Avatar
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    Xiao Feng would win. I don't know how to explain my choice logically, simply because I feel he would win.
    Yang Guo & Zhou Botong said in Chapters 6, 11 & 25 of ROCH:
    - 这道姑也算得美了,只是还不及桃花岛郭伯母,更加不及我姑姑。
    - 原来郭伯母竟是这般美貌,小时候我却不觉得。
    - 龙姑娘,我瞧你品貌才智,和那小黄蓉不相上下,武功也跟她差不离。

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    ooooooh wicked! about time someone posted this one. good job.

    hmmmmmm, this one is pretty tough.

    both are so heroic and have dragon palm ownage.

    GJ have a 3 key advantages over XF tho in how i see it.

    firstly, his Nine Yin internal energy cultivation (i see it as on par with Shaolin's YJJ internal energy cultivation) should be more superior than XF's normal Shaolin internal energy cultivation, resulting in able to blast out dragon palm after dragon palm. Thus, after a while, XF would eventually run out of energy to blast those palms out as in the fight against YTZ+MRF.

    secondly, GJ's L/R hand Technique allows him to have Dragon Palms as offense for one hand and Vacant Fist for defense on the other. This mix will maximize and keep an efficient ratio of offense and defense.

    thirdly, the Vacant Fist Technique i believe is much more internal energy efficient than Dragon Palms. Thus, GJ can keep using Vacant Fist to counter XF's fierce Dragon Palms until XF tires out.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Exodus's Avatar
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    GJ can't maximize his power when using L/R technique it's like 50% in each arm and a genius like XF would be able to penetrate his defense like noone have before

  5. #5
    Senior Member AnhHung's Avatar
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    Correct me if Im wrong (Im sure you'll do ;-)), but GJ couldnt do LDA. Why is that?
    You do know that it is just fiction, dont you?

  6. #6
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by augster123
    ooooooh wicked! about time someone posted this one. good job.

    hmmmmmm, this one is pretty tough.

    both are so heroic and have dragon palm ownage.

    GJ have a 3 key advantages over XF tho in how i see it.

    firstly, his Nine Yin internal energy cultivation (i see it as on par with Shaolin's YJJ internal energy cultivation) should be more superior than XF's normal Shaolin internal energy cultivation, resulting in able to blast out dragon palm after dragon palm. Thus, after a while, XF would eventually run out of energy to blast those palms out as in the fight against YTZ+MRF.

    secondly, GJ's L/R hand Technique allows him to have Dragon Palms as offense for one hand and Vacant Fist for defense on the other. This mix will maximize and keep an efficient ratio of offense and defense.

    thirdly, the Vacant Fist Technique i believe is much more internal energy efficient than Dragon Palms. Thus, GJ can keep using Vacant Fist to counter XF's fierce Dragon Palms until XF tires out.

    Gwok Jing's best chance is to begin the fight defensively, putting up as strong a defense as he can against Kiu Fung's attacks. This is easier said than done, of course, because Kiu Fung's attacks are definitely no worse than on par with those of Gwok Jing's toughest enemies, West Poison Au Yeung Fung and the Golden Wheel Monk. Kiu Fung fought more fiercely than either of those two villains, however, and there's absolutely ZERO CHANCE of Kiu Fung having a mental breakdown (what Candide would call "nut shrinkage") like the Golden Wheel Monk frequently had.

    Gwok Jing can indeed try to deplete Kiu Fung's strength by stretching the fight out, but the question is can even Gwok Jing accomplish this against Kiu Fung? Gwok Jing's defense was about as tight as it got for the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY Greats, but is that tight enough to hold out against Kiu Fung long enough to deplete the Khitan superman's energy?

    That is the $64,000 wuxia question!

  7. #7
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnhHung
    Correct me if Im wrong (Im sure you'll do ;-)), but GJ couldnt do LDA. Why is that?
    Mainly because Jin Yong never really described characters doing LDA when he wrote LOCH in the 1950s, but did so frequently when he wrote DGSD a decade or so later.

    He didn't bother to retcon these things into greater consistency in his revisions, but I do believe that the gap between the DGSD Elites (i.e. Kiu Fung class) and the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY Greats isn't as wide as commonly believed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    Gwok Jing's best chance is to begin the fight defensively, putting up as strong a defense as he can against Kiu Fung's attacks. This is easier said than done, of course, because Kiu Fung's attacks are definitely no worse than on par with those of Gwok Jing's toughest enemies, West Poison Au Yeung Fung and the Golden Wheel Monk. Kiu Fung fought more fiercely than either of those two villains, however, and there's absolutely ZERO CHANCE of Kiu Fung having a mental breakdown (what Candide would call "nut shrinkage") like the Golden Wheel Monk frequently had.

    Gwok Jing can indeed try to deplete Kiu Fung's strength by stretching the fight out, but the question is can even Gwok Jing accomplish this against Kiu Fung? Gwok Jing's defense was about as tight as it got for the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY Greats, but is that tight enough to hold out against Kiu Fung long enough to deplete the Khitan superman's energy?

    That is the $64,000 wuxia question!
    granted that XF doesn't get any drinking breaks, and that it's an ongoing battle, i think GJ has a chance.

    XF proved to everyone that his Khitan superpowers has a limit when fighting against YTZ and MRF. if that fight did not occur, then XF most likely have my vote.

    if it was a weapons battle, XF has the edge i believe cuz Dog Beating Stick Technique > QuanZhen Sword Technique.

    oooo and btw, anyone know where i can actually read that XF vs. YTZ+MRF battle in english? has that part been translated?

  9. #9
    Senior Member sheraldine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    It's always the obvious battles we neglect to do.

    Kiu Fung and Gwok Jing...both heroes among heroes who each mastered the Hong Lung 28/18 Palms. One is the epitome of martial arts ferocity, the other the symbol of a solid martial arts foundation. What if they were to engage in an epic struggle to see who was the better fighter?
    men, why must they strugged to see who fights betta? why cant they fight, then complimented each other? then they fight again, stopped to point out one another's strength and weakness? ok ok, didnt mean to irk you again. onto your question, i will say kiufung. i dunno why but among all jy's leading men, he stood out like no other in my opinion.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Yeung Gor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huang Rong
    Xiao Feng would win. I don't know how to explain my choice logically, simply because I feel he would win.
    Rooting against your own husband? Poor Uncle Guo.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Exodus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yeung Gor
    Rooting against your own husband? Poor Uncle Guo.
    that's because she fell in love with XF after seeing him ala madam ma lol

  12. #12
    Senior Member Huang Rong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yeung Gor
    Rooting against your own husband? Poor Uncle Guo.
    Though I love him, I still have to be true to my heart and my words, nephew Yeung. And anyway, I'll take care of your Uncle when the fight finishes, giving him the most considerate care which he's never known during his lifetime.
    Quote Originally Posted by Exodus
    that's because she fell in love with XF after seeing him ala madam ma
    Don't ever underestimate me like that. .
    Last edited by Huang Rong; 01-30-07 at 04:58 AM.
    Yang Guo & Zhou Botong said in Chapters 6, 11 & 25 of ROCH:
    - 这道姑也算得美了,只是还不及桃花岛郭伯母,更加不及我姑姑。
    - 原来郭伯母竟是这般美貌,小时候我却不觉得。
    - 龙姑娘,我瞧你品貌才智,和那小黄蓉不相上下,武功也跟她差不离。

  13. #13
    Senior Member Snafu3721's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by augster123
    granted that XF doesn't get any drinking breaks, and that it's an ongoing battle, i think GJ has a chance.

    if it was a weapons battle, XF has the edge i believe cuz Dog Beating Stick Technique > QuanZhen Sword Technique.
    That's not necessarily true.
    When OYF and H7G fought to the death on Mt. Hua, their final battle was fought through YG using the theories of dog beating stick and serpent staff. Although it appears that "No dogs under heaven" would have probably defeated OYF in real time, it means that the serpent staff techniques is something at least comparable to dog beating staff.

    With that said... remember when OYF captured GJ in LOCH and forced him to fight everday. Right before the mongols and ZBT arrived GJ was prepared to fend off OYF's serpent staff with a sword. GJ's thoughts at the time was "today, I will not loose my sword." GJ was confident enough that he believed he can fight OYF's serpent staff. This was a GJ before he mastered the complete 9-yin and reached Greats level.

    So...Serpent staff ~= dog beating stick
    GJ's 9-yin infused sword technique ~= serpent staff
    Therefore, a ROCH GJ shouldn't have a problem dealing with XF in a weapons match.

    Besides, I think many people underestimates the L/R technique... Think about how good XLN got once she completed it. What would happen if GJ used a sword technique in one hand while using Dragon Plams in the other. It would be like fighting YTZ and MRF (cuz GJ definitely had enough internal to handle XF and he can execute techniques as if he were 2 people).

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snafu3721
    Besides, I think many people underestimates the L/R technique... Think about how good XLN got once she completed it. What would happen if GJ used a sword technique in one hand while using Dragon Plams in the other. It would be like fighting YTZ and MRF (cuz GJ definitely had enough internal to handle XF and he can execute techniques as if he were 2 people).
    agreed. soft techniques on one hand. hard techniques on the other. even if it was only 50% power of both techniques individually, when they come together ==> each attack, offense is covered with defense and defense is covered with offense.

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    I think if GJ could actually use a sword in one hand and XL18Z in the other, he would have done that when he went to rescue the Wu brothers or whatever it was that lead to him fighting the Mongolian experts.

    Don't think H7G could have beaten OYF with Dog Beating Stick, he did use that skill before (at Huashan II) and got owned.

  16. #16
    Senior Member Snafu3721's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K2Grey
    I think if GJ could actually use a sword in one hand and XL18Z in the other, he would have done that when he went to rescue the Wu brothers or whatever it was that lead to him fighting the Mongolian experts.
    GJ was fighting someone who has superior internal and 3 other mercenaries. If we were to conclude that GJ is ~= to GWM... then technically GJ should have died when succumbed to the pressure of the other fighters. I believe it has to due with the North Star formation and his L/R techniques. Again, using XLN as an example, it allows it's user to literally split themselves into two (I know it's awkward to imagine). For exmaple: One normal martial artist can only unleash 1 dragon palm because of the chi meridians and all sorts of components that allow its user to utilize their inetrnal energy as ONE technique. But, GJ and XLN can utilize thier internal energy as if it were 2 users!!

    In addition, it was mentioned when he fought the 98 taoists that he was able to break their formation because he was able to unleash 2 dragon palms of opposing nature against them (1 palm for 1 formation of 49, and 1 palm for the other formation of 49). This is something that XF can't do.

    Quote Originally Posted by K2Grey
    Don't think H7G could have beaten OYF with Dog Beating Stick, he did use that skill before (at Huashan II) and got owned.
    H7G never used Dog beating stick during Hua Shan II. In ROCH, it was specified that Dog beating stick was only to be used if ALL else fails-- implying that in the hands of H7G, it was a better skill than dragon palms.

    H7G somehow caught up to OYF by the time they fought to the death in ROCH... perhaps due to the bits of 9-Yin that H7G had or just due to Jin Yong's plot device of always keeping the Greats equal. (Although IIRC I think it mentioned something about the 9-yin portion that H7G had helping his understanding of martial arts... or something like that). Either way, OYF couldn't defeat "no dogs undeer heaven" without that full day's worth of contemplation.
    Last edited by Snafu3721; 01-30-07 at 07:29 PM.

  17. #17
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snafu3721
    What would happen if GJ used a sword technique in one hand while using Dragon Plams in the other. It would be like fighting YTZ and MRF (cuz GJ definitely had enough internal to handle XF and he can execute techniques as if he were 2 people).
    My 2 cents:

    Guo Jing definitely had enough internal energy to handle Xiao Feng, you say? No proof.

    You Tanzhi didn't just have massive internal power. He had POISONOUS internal power which makes him more dangerous than normal practioners.

    You Tanzhi is someone who injured a Xuan generation monk in ONE stance. Can any of the Greats do that? I have high doubts.
    TC to Ken: "You need to watch the ending of ROCH 83."

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    My 2 cents:

    Guo Jing definitely had enough internal energy to handle Xiao Feng, you say? No proof.

    You Tanzhi didn't just have massive internal power. He had POISONOUS internal power which makes him more dangerous than normal practioners.

    You Tanzhi is someone who injured a Xuan generation monk in ONE stance. Can any of the Greats do that? I have high doubts.
    Wasn't that Xuan generation Monk caught off guard? i think the Greats can do the same to an off guard Xuan generation Monk.

  19. #19
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by augster123
    Wasn't that Xuan generation Monk caught off guard? i think the Greats can do the same to an off guard Xuan generation Monk.
    Nope, he was not caught off guard. Reverend Xuantong exchanged ONE blow with You Tanzhi, and the result was that he was severely injured by the icy energy.
    TC to Ken: "You need to watch the ending of ROCH 83."

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    Nope, he was not caught off guard. Reverend Xuantong exchanged ONE blow with You Tanzhi, and the result was that he was severely injured by the icy energy.
    exchanged blows as in a palm clash? or as in i hit u in the stomach and u hit me in the chest kinda of exchange? if it was a single palm clash then, it is doubtful that a Great can injure the Xuantong monk to the extent YTZ got him to. if it was the 2nd case of exchange, then its doable.

    but no doubt, in either case, this was YTZ's top badass moment.

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