More proof that Xiao Feng =~ Zhang Sanfeng

[PJ]

In the past, there have been doubts about whether Xiao Feng has reached a similar level of martial arts as Zhang Sanfeng. Zhang Sanfeng was famed for his Single-Stance Execution abilities. One such instance was when he sneaked up on the hands-occupied Xuanming Elder and could proceed to finish him in ONE stance. Now, I have found a similar evidence about Xiao Feng's Single-Stance Execution ability in DGSD, when he could have finished Grandpa Tan as his heart desired.

Zhang Sanfeng's description:
原来张三丰悄没声的欺近身来，左手已轻轻搭在他的肩头上。那人大吃一惊，心知张三丰只须内劲一吐，自己不死 也得重伤，

Even if Xuanming Elder would not die, he would suffer severe injuries.

Qiao Feng's description:
谭公手足微微一抖，这时他兀自被乔峰提着，身子凌空，乔峰只须掌心内力一吐，立时便送了他的性 命。

If Qiao Feng would have unleashed any palm internal energy at all, Grandpa Tan would surely suffer immediate death.

Qiao Feng had been exchanging several blows with Grandpa Tan before taking complete control of him. But let's not forget that Zhang Sanfeng never took Xuanming Elder head-on. Zhang Sanfeng sneaked up on the Xuanming Elder while the latter's hand was occupied. If Xiao Feng would have sneaked up on Grandpa Tan, I'm sure he could have taken full control of the latter's body, considering that Xiao Feng even grabbed Murong Fu's entire body under his mercy in one simple stance when the latter was occupied.

Now, it says that Zhang Sanfeng may or may not be able to kill the Xuanming Elder instantly, whereas Xiao Feng would definitely kill Grandpa Tan instantly. Neither Zhang Sanfeng nor Xiao Feng at this point in the story was at their peak yet. Zhang would spend 10 more years inventing the Taiji art, while the novel explicitly stated that Xiao Feng had improved a few months later.

One consideration would be whether Pre-10 years Xuanming Elder is on the same level as Grandpa Tan. My opinion is that Xuanming Elder would have slightly superior but the difference would not be very big. Grandpa Tan had launched a triple-palmed LDA which neutralized one of Xiao Feng's palms, that says a lot about his martial arts.

[Humplewumps]

Which part in the novel did it say that Xiao Feng improved again later?

[ChronoReverse]

How exactly does one "sneak up" on someone when the target is fully aware of it?

It was at this time when a young child’s voice cried from outside the long window of the hall, “Papa! Papa!” These two cries seemed to be smothered, the mouth of this speaker was obviously being covered by someone else. With a sway of his body, Zhang SanFeng had already arrived outside the long window. All that was seen was a man dressed in the attire of a Mongolian war general, in his arms was a eight or nine year old boy. That boy’s mouth was covered, but he was struggling to break freak.

Zhang SanFeng’s beloved disciple has just died a terrible death, and it was as if somebody has driven a knife into his heart. But due to his cultivation of nearly one hundred years, his thoughts still remained clear. He shouted in a low voice, “Get inside!” That man gave a tap with his left leg, and was just about to leap up onto the rooftops with the kid in his arms. But his shoulders immediately slumped while his whole body seemed to be suddenly held down by an incredible weight and he found that he couldn’t even lift his two feet from the ground. What had happened was Zhang SanFeng had soundlessly approached the man and placed his left hand lightly on his shoulders. That man was incredibly petrified, for he knew that all Zhang SanFeng needed to do was expel some internal energy, and even if he doesn’t die right away, he most definitely will be severely injured. Therefore, he could only follow his orders and enter into the reception hall.

Not only did he have two clear warnings, he was holding ZWJ hostage. The level Z3F displays over him here is immense.

[PJ]

Which part in the novel did it say that Xiao Feng improved again later?

It's mentioned in Chapter 25
萧峰笑道：“好，还你！”右手得起钢杖，对准了山壁用力一搠，当的一声响，直插入
山壁之中。一根八尺来长的钢杖，倒有五尺插入岩中。这钢杖所插外乃是极坚极硬的黑岩。
萧峰这么运劲一掷，居然入岩如此之深，自己也觉欣然，寻思：“这几个月来各历忧劳，功
夫倒没搁下，反而更长进了。半年之前，我只怕还没能插得如此深入。”

[PJ]

How exactly does one "sneak up" on someone when the target is fully aware of it?

I don't think The target was fully aware of it.

What had happened was Zhang SanFeng had soundlessly approached the man and placed his left hand lightly on his shoulders.

I always interpreted it as:
What had happened was Zhang SanFeng had soundlessly approached the man and placed his left hand lightly on his shoulders [WITHOUT THE TARGET REALIZING].

Furthermore, I interpreted the passage as a bit out of sequence. The sequence which makes the most sense would be:
1) Xuanming Elder tries to tap his feet
2) Zhang Sanfeng places hands on Xuanming Elder's shoulder
3) Zhang Sanfeng shouts "Get in!"

In my version of interpretation, The Xuanming Elder would have been unaware of Zhang Sanfeng's approaching since it was soundless.

Not only did he have two clear warnings, he was holding ZWJ hostage. The level Z3F displays over him here is immense.

Holding Zhang Wuji hostage occupied his hands. It was definitely more handicap than help. Same way that Ding Chunqiu holding Ah Zi hostage was also more handicap than help.

[ChronoReverse]

That doesn't change the fact that ZWJ screamed already. He would've been alerted and the "surprise" attack by Z3F would be as valid as a surprising attack performed during a fight.

[K2Grey]

You also have to factor in Z3F's incredible speed. He was quite a distance away, ZWJ yells papa. The XM Elder *immediately* went to leave as soon as that happened and Z3F was already there before the XM Elder could jump.

[CC]

A dozen or so people charged up together. Gathering his strength and spirit, Qiao Feng suddenly reached out with his right hand, grabbed XuanJu by the "Mid-Chest Pressure Point", and lifted his body up in the air. Everyone involuntarily gasped in shock and instinctively took a couple of steps back.

Here is one instance when an enraged XF could grab a Xuan level monk with one stance. (and he was burdened by carrying Ah Zhu and a shield here).

[PJ]

You also have to factor in Z3F's incredible speed. He was quite a distance away, ZWJ yells papa. The XM Elder *immediately* went to leave as soon as that happened and Z3F was already there before the XM Elder could jump.

That is true. For all we know, Zhang Sanfeng could be as fast as Dongfang Bubai.

That doesn't change the fact that ZWJ screamed already. He would've been alerted and the "surprise" attack by Z3F would be as valid as a surprising attack performed during a fight.

OK, I can agree with you. However let's not forget that Zhang Sanfeng had "attacked" first. What if a hands-free Xuanming Elder had attacked first, would Zhang Sanfeng be able to subdue him in one stance? Impossible in my opinion without Zhang Zhenren suffering a major injury a la with the fake Kongxiang.

It's similar to the way that Sweeper Monk attacked Murong Bo and Xiao Yuanshan, and he killed them in one stance. However later we see that when Xiao Feng attacked back, then Sweeper Monk can't reproduce his single-stance execution any more. I personally believe that in a fair fight where the DGSD Elite is determined to win, Sweeper Monk would not be able to take them out in one stance. Same thing with Zhang Sanfeng vs Xuanming Elder.

I also think that Qiao Feng would definitely be capable of subduing Grandpa Tan in one stance similar to what Zhang Zhenren did, if Grandpa Tan was about to run away and Qiao Feng went straight after him. However , Qiao Feng would most likely strike with brute forcef instead of putting his hand on Grandpa Tan's shoulder; that is their stylistic difference. Hell, he had already knocked out Zhao Qiansun with just one kick and Zhao was no pushover, and it specifically said that he was trying to not do harm to Zhao.

[Loke-Gao-Zhu]

too hard to compare, the way JY illustrate XF's martial arts are more open and fierce while Z3F"s martial arts are always illustrated as mysterious / godlike etc...

[duguxiaojing]

IIRC the same thing happened with LHC and the guy with the YIn Yang palms? Except that he spared LHC and did not let loose the energy.(It proboally would not effect LHC anyhow seeing that his LDA did nothing.)

[ChronoReverse]

OK, I can agree with you. However let's not forget that Zhang Sanfeng had "attacked" first. What if a hands-free Xuanming Elder had attacked first, would Zhang Sanfeng be able to subdue him in one stance? Impossible in my opinion without Zhang Zhenren suffering a major injury a la with the fake Kongxiang.

Depends on the distance. If he was practically in Z3F's arms and Z3F thought he was a good person in a delirious state, then yeah.

IIRC the same thing happened with LHC and the guy with the YIn Yang palms? Except that he spared LHC and did not let loose the energy.(It proboally would not effect LHC anyhow seeing that his LDA did nothing.)

LHC was literally distracted though. In the middle of a battle, he stopped and watch XWT's fight. Definitely a sneak attack, but LHC didn't have any real way to know (especially since his senses were dull due to the lack of coherent internal energy).

[Ken Cheng]

I've never really had much trouble believing that Kiu Fung could match or surpass Cheung 3 Fung in fighting.

If they were to ruminate upon and discuss the intricacies of martial arts, however, perhaps Cheung 3 Fung would hold an advantage.

[CC]

If they were to ruminate upon and discuss the intricacies of martial arts, however, perhaps Cheung 3 Fung would hold an advantage.

Goes back to the other thread we were discussing. What is the goal of martial arts? To show a hint of softness within hardness, a sense of firmness in the softness?

Or just bloody smack people with Dragon Palms?

[kyss of the sword]

XF was a great fighter but what ZSF did was a bit more impressive because he caught a top fight in a single move while XF took several moves to put one over grandpa tan.

[R!chard]

XF was a great fighter but what ZSF did was a bit more impressive because he caught a top fight in a single move while XF took several moves to put one over grandpa tan.

As CC pointed out XF 'caught' a Xuan generation monk with Ah Zhu and a shield in hand.....

[ChronoReverse]

Goes back to the other thread we were discussing. What is the goal of martial arts? To show a hint of softness within hardness, a sense of firmness in the softness?

Or just bloody smack people with Dragon Palms?

I'd say to be able to do as much as possible with the least amount of effort. If your control is great enough, then you don't _have_ to smash someone to actually crush them.

There's something to be said about HL18P though

[JusTea242]

XF is able to catch Xuan monk in 1 stance,however the monk is only about 1/3 of his power,I doubt he can catch someone like MRB in 1 stance?

[Xiao Feng]

And your point being???

Can Z3F catch ZWJ in one stance?

[PJ]

XF was a great fighter but what ZSF did was a bit more impressive because he caught a top fight in a single move while XF took several moves to put one over grandpa tan.

It's not like Xiao Feng intended to harm Grandpa Tan. He merely wanted to crush Tan's proud ego a little bit. And even when Qiao Feng was in "no death harm" mode, he could knock out Shan Zheng and Zhao Qiansun in just one stance. It only makes sense that he would do more harm to them in "kill them all" mode.