What would GJ's position be if the Sung were the aggressors?

[flyingfox2002]

The Hans were pretty content to stay where they were since they did not perceive much value in the areas beyond proper China save for the land they lost in previous defeats to "barbarians." Even if they had ambitions to expand, they didn't have the military prowess to launch major invasions.

For the sake of this hypothetical scenario, however, lets assume that they do and they did invade foreign land(s).

What position do you think GJ would take?

Would he be against the invasion(s) against foreign sovereignties? Or would he be ok with it since the Han civilians are not the ones suffering?

[Ken Cheng]

I've thought about this very point a few times. Here's what I think would happen:

1. Young, LOCH-era Gwok Jing might support the Sung just because he hadn't learned to think outside the box yet. His mother and teachers had drilled loyalty to his native ethnicity and nation into his head, and he hadn't learned to think outside of those parameters yet.

2. Mature, ROCH-era Gwok Jing would have defended whichever side was on the receiving end of the aggression. Moreso than his younger, less mature self, the adult Gwok Jing was, above all, an individual who didn't want to see others get hurt. That doesn't mean that he would be some kind of pacifist (far from it), but based on how he conducted the defense of Seung Yeung in ROCH, it seemed that he was only willing to use as much violence as necessary to get the job done. He had no inclination towards slaughter (something I think became concrete for him during the Samarkand expedition of his youth).

[Suet Seung]

Wouldn't people from both sides of the war be suffering? Maybe not equally but in any form of war, people of both sides lose family members who fight in the war and unlucky ones get caught in the middle of it too, like the taking over of cities?

I'm curious too. He's patriotic in protecting his own people against the Mongolians taking over, makes me wonder if he would've been a peace maker and think about the civilians of both countries having to suffer the wraths of war. Good question Foxy.

[flyingfox2002]

If he were to actively defend foreigners against the Sung aggression, would that not make him a traitor? Given his respect for war hero Yue Fei, and his (likely) distain for the 12 military orders to withdraw that YF received just before he launched an invasion on the Jin capital, will he really turn on his own people (the Sung army being "his people" in the sense that they are all Han)?

[Ken Cheng]

Wouldn't people from both sides of the war be suffering? Maybe not equally but in any form of war, people of both sides lose family members who fight in the war and unlucky ones get caught in the middle of it too, like the taking over of cities?

The civilians always suffer. That's what sucks about war.

Sometimes, wars have two aggressors. Most times, it's the leaders who agitate for war rather than the grass roots (although this too, is not always the case). There are cases, however, of one side being clear aggressors and the other side wanting no part of the war except to defend themselves. Nazi Germany versus the countries it attacked during World War II (with the possible exception of the equally aggressive Soviet Union) would be a prime modern day example of this.

I'm curious too. He's patriotic in protecting his own people against the Mongolians taking over, makes me wonder if he would've been a peace maker and think about the civilians of both countries having to suffer the wraths of war. Good question Foxy.

The problem with this is the Mongolian leaders didn't want peace. Genghis, Ogodei, Mongke, Kublai...all of them had this burning ambition to unite the civilized world (as far as they knew it extended) under the Mongolian flag, and they had no qualms about using slaughter to accomplish this goal.

[Ken Cheng]

If he were to actively defend foreigners against the Sung aggression, would that not make him a traitor?

From the Sung perspective, definitely. He would be a traitor to his nation and ethnic group for sure. Heroism isn't necessarily defined on ethnic or nationalistic terms, however. I'd have more respect for a hero who defends innocent people regardless of ethnic or national allegiances than a "hero" who favors only those like himself.

Given his respect for war hero Yue Fei, and his (likely) distain for the 12 military orders to withdraw that YF received just before he launched an invasion on the Jin capital, will he really turn on his own people (the Sung army being "his people" in the sense that they are all Han)?

LOCH-era Gwok Jing might have believed in loyalty to the Sung nation in very simplistic and black-and-white terms. ROCH-era Gwok Jing, however, I'm not so sure about: by that time, I believe his admiration of Ngok Fei extended more towards the man's loyalty and selflessness rather than the fact that Ngok Fei was a Han. Although Genghis and later Kublai were Gwok Jing's enemies and he had to fight them, I don't think he ever fully lost respect for the Mongol leaders because although they were his people's foes, Gwok Jing recognized them to be heroes of their own (Mongolian) culture.

[Ken Cheng]

Circumstances never made it necessary, of course, but if it came right down to it, I could almost see Gwok Jing pulling a repeat of Kiu Fung's suicide in DGSD. Seeing *two* countries to whom Gwok Jing felt deep ties and kinship face off in war was a personal hell that he had to deal with during his entire adult life. What made it easier, perhaps, was that it was clear who the aggressors and the victims were.

[duguxiaojing]

IIRC GJ told Khubilai that he did not serve the song emperor(called him blind IIRC), he fought against the mongols because they invaded and buchered his people. Judging from these words i would seriously doubt that GJ would support any agressive campaign China had towards foreign countries.

[flyingfox2002]

I don't think GJ would go so far as to participate in the resistance against Sung forces. If he succeeds to defeat the Sung, there's no guarantee that the country he helps won't turn around and invade the Sung while the latter is down. In this case, GJ would become one of the greatest traitors in China's history.