LOCH/ROCH who could have beaten the original Greats?

[Felix]

Which characters from LOCH and ROCH if taken in their primes, could have beaten the original Greats from the very first Mt Hua tournament.

If WCY was taken out of the picture, which LOCH/ROCH characters can take out the 4 Greats in one on one battles. They must be able to beat all 4 to count.

Lin Chiu Ying, Guo Jing, Yang Guo, Zhou Bo Tong, Golden Wheel Monk are a given.

How about others? Would Little Dragon Girl be able to beat the original 4 Greats if she was morphed to that time period?

Would the QQR in his prime be able to beat them?

[augster123]

QQR, at the end of ROCH, should be able to easily cruise past them original greats at the first Mount Wah Sword Meet. Even if we were to take QQR, at the end of LOCH, he should be able to win against those 4 in 1 vs 1 battles.

[PJ]

I can think of a few other possible candidates:

1. The Shaolin Abbot during Huogong Toutuo's time (before Shaolin talent sank to an all-time low status)

2. Kunlun 3 Saints He Zudao (at the end of ROCH / beginning of HSDS)

3. Yelu Qi, after fully mastering 18 Dragon Subduing Palms (which he was finally confirmed to have done so)

[Snafu3721]

I can think of a few other possible candidates:

1. The Shaolin Abbot during Huogong Toutuo's time (before Shaolin talent sank to an all-time low status)

2. Kunlun 3 Saints He Zudao (at the end of ROCH / beginning of HSDS)

3. Yelu Qi, after fully mastering 18 Dragon Subduing Palms (which he was finally confirmed to have done so)

I totally forgot about Kunlun 3 Saints!

But do you think Yelu Qi, even with XL18P can fight an original Great?? He might not have the internal energy to do so... For example, once GJ mastered the 18 plams, he still wasn't much of a contender for HYS. It wasn't until GJ started gaining insight from 9-yin that helped him catch up.

[Felix]

I totally forgot about Kunlun 3 Saints!

But do you think Yelu Qi, even with XL18P can fight an original Great?? He might not have the internal energy to do so... For example, once GJ mastered the 18 plams, he still wasn't much of a contender for HYS. It wasn't until GJ started gaining insight from 9-yin that helped him catch up.

Keep in mind, I am asking to compare to a Great during the Mt Hua tournament, a pre-LOCH time.

[augster123]

XLN, at the end of ROCH, should be able to pull it off. HR, at the end of ROCH, should be able to win it with some effort. if she actually diligently practiced the 9 Yin Manual for a bit before morphin to the first Mount Wah Sword Meet, i'd say she's game too.

[tape]

The pre-LOCH greats don't seem very powerful at all. H7G didn't even master his Dragon Palms yet, however they were still head and shoulders above the rest of wulin. They must have sucked even more. However this makes Wang Chong Yang seem weak too, since it took 7 days and nights to decide the victor, and there would be no need for the tournament if he was really that much more powerful, so he can't be more than a notch above them. I remember reading a debate where the ROCH Greats finally caught up with him, but it seems like they should have caught up long ago, during present day LOCH.

Anyway, I'd like to add the first disciple of Golden Wheel Monk. He was supposed to be much more talented than Da Er Ba, though I don't remember if he was much more powerful. I think someone stronger than Da Er Ba would be around the pre-LOCH Great level.

[GuGu]

LMC could of had been around their level.

[PJ]

Anyway, I'd like to add the first disciple of Golden Wheel Monk.

You got it! Even I missed this mysterious ELOC affiliate when searching through my brain for matching candidates. Clearly, a certain individual in wuxia, who could process thousands of thoughts per second, would have outperformed my attempt to recognize the outstanding persons whose martial arts rival that of the Pre-LOCH Greats.

He was supposed to be much more talented than Da Er Ba, though I don't remember if he was much more powerful.

金轮法王道：「你大 师兄的武功比你强得多」

Jinlun Guoshi's exact words are: "[Daerba,] Your senior brother's martial arts are much stronger than yours."

However this makes Wang Chong Yang seem weak too, since it took 7 days and nights to decide the victor, and there would be no need for the tournament if he was really that much more powerful, so he can't be more than a notch above them. I remember reading a debate where the ROCH Greats finally caught up with him, but it seems like they should have caught up long ago, during present day LOCH.

This subject has been discussed before (actually, it's been "beaten to death" after 5 years). Here is a brief explanation from Athena:

The First Huashan tournament lasted for 7 days and 7 nights. One half consisted of a theoretical part (discussing martial arts) , the latter half a practical part (duelling).

In the end we do not know how the first tournament was fought. Those seven days were a mixture of debating martial arts theories, and duelling with each other.... All we know for sure is that Wang Chongyang won.

To Extremer88: I am not sure how much the theoretical part weighed. It wasn't said, but another example of how discussing martial arts can work is by looking in Jin Yong's The Book and the Sword. The teacher of Chen Jialuo, Yuan Shixiao, duelled Zhang Zhaozhong just by talking. For instance, Yuan Shixiao said:"If I would use stance A to attack you, how would you react? Zhang replied:"I would use Wudang technique D to block and immediately use Wudang technique T to counter-attack."

Wang Chuyi, the only witness, during the First Tournament said that he was quite amused by Hong Qigong's simile. Because Hong Qigong drew comparisons between certain martial arts and good, exquisite food.

[tape]

Yeah, but there would be no real point in the tournament or of discussing theories if Wang was so much better than them. They would not even have bothered dueling, and neither would they have taken it seriously if deep in their hearts they knew Wang was that much better than them. If Wang was, at the time, at their ROCH level, they would have no chance. His first couple of moves would show he is way beyond them, and the whole thing would not have lasted so long. I only guess this because we have no knowledge of pre-LOCH greats, but the LOCH greats themselves seem much less powerful than their ROCH counterparts. A ZBT with rudimentary workings of L/R technique already bested HYS it seemed, and now the ROCH ZBT synergized more 9 Yin along with using powerful techniques like Vacant Fist and Demon Subduing Fist on the other. He seems much more powerful as a martial artist (and this is compared to present LOCH and not pre LOCH). I don't want to revive this argument, but all logic seems to say Wang is either toying with them during the tournament, or he was definitely not as powerful as a ROCH great.

Even if we don't know how the tournament was conducted, I think it'd be fair to say Wang could not have been at ROCH level due to the fact that the other Greats took it very seriously (they would not if they KNEW they were going to lose, which they should if he is at ROCH level, or unless they had no indication whatsoever of how powerful Wang is before then, which seems a bit farfetched since they're contemporaries), that it took 7 days and 7 nights (adds onto the fact that if Wang was head and shoulders above them, theres no need to compete), and....I have no other reason heh.

[PJ]

You have to keep in mind that this is the wuxia universe we're talking about, where experienced and respected martial artists are apparently unable to gauge correctly the martial arts level of other people, AND where fighters do not understand the concept of Backing Down From Stronger Opponents. People have been shown to continue attempting to win even though it's clear that they have no chance. Their ego and pride just won't let them back down.

Yeah, but there would be no real point in the tournament or of discussing theories if Wang was so much better than them. They would not even have bothered dueling, and neither would they have taken it seriously if deep in their hearts they knew Wang was that much better than them. If Wang was, at the time, at their ROCH level, they would have no chance.

What if Wang Chongyang was not known to be superior in the theoretical aspect? It's possible that the Greats thought they could outsmart Wang in martial arts theory.

His first couple of moves would show he is way beyond them, and the whole thing would not have lasted so long.

They were having a contest of advanced martial arts, not a life-and-death blow, and there was plenty of talking going on. In such a friendly environment, the pace is usually slower and less life threatening, so it would have taken longer than a real combat.

Plus, the art of 9 Yin was at stake. Everyone wanted it badly, so they would not have backed down easily at all, even if it's obvious that they have no chance. They would have tested EVERY aspect of martial arts possible, and really tried to stump Wang Chongyang in EVERY possible scenario.

Even if we don't know how the tournament was conducted, I think it'd be fair to say Wang could not have been at ROCH level due to the fact that ...

Well, the other side of the argument is that in ROCH, Wang's disciples said that if he were alive, he would have defeated the present-day Greats.

[tape]

You have to keep in mind that this is the wuxia universe we're talking about, where experienced and respected martial artists are apparently unable to gauge correctly the martial arts level of other people, AND where fighters do not understand the concept of Backing Down From Stronger Opponents. People have been shown to continue attempting to win even though it's clear that they have no chance. Their ego and pride just won't let them back down.



What if Wang Chongyang was not known to be superior in the theoretical aspect? It's possible that the Greats thought they could outsmart Wang in martial arts theory.



They were having a contest of advanced martial arts, not a life-and-death blow, and there was plenty of talking going on. In such a friendly environment, the pace is usually slower and less life threatening, so it would have taken longer than a real combat.

Plus, the art of 9 Yin was at stake. Everyone wanted it badly, so they would not have backed down easily at all, even if it's obvious that they have no chance. They would have tested EVERY aspect of martial arts possible, and really tried to stump Wang Chongyang in EVERY possible scenario.



Well, the other side of the argument is that in ROCH, Wang's disciples said that if he were alive, he would have defeated the present-day Greats.

It was every man for himself, not 4 Greats vs Wang. Even if one of them could best him in a single category, they would still admit Wang is the superior martial artist. Everyone except OYF is honorable enough that they would have admitted defeat if they knew it. The fact that they bothered competing for so long means they had a chance, and given their abilities in LOCH, I don't think they had a chance to honorably admit they are superior to Wang. Even if they could somehow prove they are theoretically superior, Wang is realistically superior. Why bother giving someone more advanced theories when they can't apply them? Wang would have deserved it either way. I think the whole length of this whole thing makes it almost impossible for Wang to be at the level of ROCH Greats; unless this "discussion" was merely them listening to Wang for 7 days and 7 nights, but the Greats seemed to have taken too much pride in the duel for them to have just been annoyances to Wang in reality.



Hehehe. I typed Wang a lot of times this post

[CC]

Debating martial arts using words seems dubious.

Character A : I use stance A10956BC

Character B : I counter with stance B106C

etc, etc

Is possible if you understand completely all of the opponents stances.

Debating against someone like Sweeper Monk or Linghu Chong would be impossible.

Sweeper Monks only answer for every stance you can come up with is 'I'll tap your head' and Linghu's answers would only be 'I'll stick my sword out'.

Sweeper Monk and Linghu Chong/Dugu debating would be fun. They'll just repeat the same lines all week.

[Athena]

It was every man for himself, not 4 Greats vs Wang. Even if one of them could best him in a single category, they would still admit Wang is the superior martial artist. Everyone except OYF is honorable enough that they would have admitted defeat if they knew it. The fact that they bothered competing for so long means they had a chance, and given their abilities in LOCH, I don't think they had a chance to honorably admit they are superior to Wang. Even if they could somehow prove they are theoretically superior, Wang is realistically superior. Why bother giving someone more advanced theories when they can't apply them? Wang would have deserved it either way. I think the whole length of this whole thing makes it almost impossible for Wang to be at the level of ROCH Greats; unless this "discussion" was merely them listening to Wang for 7 days and 7 nights, but the Greats seemed to have taken too much pride in the duel for them to have just been annoyances to Wang in reality.

The Five Quanzhen Masters exit the Yuxu Cave. After seeing Golden Wheel Monk and the other three warriors attacking Dragon Girl, Qiu Chuji and the others thought:"If our late Master is still alive he would surely be superior to them, our martial uncle Zhou is probably also one level higher than these four men in the field of martial arts. Yet, when facing the combined forces of these four fighters, chances are high that he will suffer defeat."

I don't know if this means that only Zhou would be defeated by the combined force of the four, or that both Wang Chongyang and Zhou Botong when facing the four fighters alone will suffer defeat.
If the first explanation is true, than Wang Chongyang would at the least tie with the four warriors of Mongolia, and at best Wang could defeat them all. This brings Wang Chongyang at the level of Guo Jing in ROCH or even higher (Guo Jing was only able to tie with them, he could not overcome them totally).
If we choose the other alternative than Wang Chongyang is somewhat weaker than Guo Jing (at this point of the story). In other words, Guo Jing has surpassed Central Divinity. But no matter what: Wang Chongyang was still better than Zhou Botong and the other Greats at this point of the story! Zhou Botong is more or less equal to Huang Yaoshi, Yideng and the others. The Five Masters believe that Zhou is not as good as their late master, this automatically means that the other Greats have not surpassed Wang Chongyang (yet?).

One could argue that the Five Masters haven't saw Zhou Botong for quite a few years, but it is a fact that when Zhou Botong first encountered Golden Wheel Monk and the other warriors, he did NOT really try to fight them. Which is very peculiar, for Old Zhou loves a good fight. But Zhou Botong is no dummy, after having made fun of them he ran away instead of fighting. This is a sign that he himself knew that he could not handle them on his own.
After the 16 years separation, the remaining Greats might have surpassed Wang Chongyang... I dunno.
Another reason why I think that Wang Chongyang was indeed much more advanced in the field of martial arts is: he read the Book of Nine Yin, pondered about it for more than 10 days and was able to absorb the contents without ever training it. The other Greats are not able to do this. Zhou Botong too, was able to do so, but this was because he, like Wang Chongyang are Taoist martial artists AND because had the first part of the book with him for more than ten years. He read it for many years and could ponder about it for years, while his brother Wang Chongyang only needed 10 days.
What Yideng said was more about the great effects of the Flower Jade Pills but if you like to use it as an indication for the Greats' situation... fine. But I don't understand why a simple remark of Yideng concerning some pills makes such sense to you, while the analysis of the Quanzhen masters about their teacher''s martial arts level is treated as "biased", "they just don't know" or "something someone said 50 or 60 years later". How come Yideng''s words form the undeniable truth while the thoughts of the Quanzhen Masters are gibberish?
Maybe Duan Zhixing (Yideng) at the time was really tired, but how does he know Wang Chongyang was exhausted after the tournament? Maybe Yideng just assumed Wang was exhausted or maybe he just didn't paid much attention to it. Just because Yideng says it does not make it true even though he believes it's true.

Besides, Wang Chongyang was much older than the other four greats, so it is not very strange he got tired. Just because he was tired doesn't mean a thing. In HSDS Zhang Sanfeng was clearly invincible yet due to his old age, Zhang Wuji was reluctant to let him engage in combat.

Furthermore, I did not say Guo Jing was equal or more powerful than Wang Chongyang.
I said:If the first explanation is true, than Wang Chongyang would at the least tie with the four warriors of Mongolia, and at best Wang could defeat them all. This brings Wang Chongyang at the level of Guo Jing in ROCH or even higher (Guo Jing was only able to tie with them, he could not overcome them totally).
If we choose the other alternative than Wang Chongyang is somewhat weaker than Guo Jing (at this point of the story). In other words, Guo Jing has surpassed Central Divinity.
I only said it was POSSIBLE that Guo Jing was equal or more powerful than Wang Chongyang..
And yes, I do believe that within a few years, Guo Jing has made tremendous progress and has surpassed the Four Greats at the Mongolian Camp.
But the fact is: we don't know how the Huashan Contest was fought. We don't know how good Wang Chongyang was.
The only indication is the part in ROCH Chapter 26, thoughts of Qiu Chuji and the others. To use Ren Wo Xing's words: That's good enough for me.

I tend to disagree, it is not certain whether Wang Chongyang was "just slightly" better than the others. There are also not really any indications on whether he died because of the tournament (although I feel that being his old age + the tournament took a heavy toll on his body did have a roll in it). But those are just conclusions drawn by the readers.
Furthermore a lot of people think that the other "Greats" were not fully developed in the field of martial arts that's why Wang Chongyang could defeat them.
But that is not really logical, is it? Because if the other "Greats" hadn't reached a high profiency in martial arts they wouldn't be invited in the first place. And they were representatives of the top-notch of that era in Wulin, so it is safe to say that they were very good.

The Five Masters of Quanzhen are very capable of making a very objective comparison. First of all they are 5 martial arts experts and had gathered a lot of profound insight in martial arts and theories of martial arts.
Which makes them very capable of making a sound assessment of the situation.
(They cannot be compared to the young Zhang Cuisain, Zhang had no idea what the level of martial arts his teacher Zhang Sanfeng had. Zhang Cuisan was young.)
Secondly they were the disciples of Wang Chongyang, they knew what level of martial arts their teacher had. If these were thought of for instance a third generation pupil like Li Zhichang I wouldn't believe it. But the thoughts of the 5 Masters carry a lot of weight, in my humble opinion.
The five of them blasted the doors open of Yuxu cave and saw the battle between Xiao Longnu and the 4 Mongolian warriors. When they saw that fight they were very very disappointed and even depressed. It is unlikely that they would boast their reputation of Quanzhen at that time even in their thoughts. And the Five Masters aren't ego-trippers.
We have to consider it was not Central Divinity v.s. Eastern Wicked, West Venom, Southern Emperor and Nothern Beggar. The other four duelled with each other too.
Those seven days were a mixture of discussion on martial arts theories, and duelling with each other. It lasted that long because it was a tournament with a certain established rules. For example after a duel between Central Divinity and Northern Beggar where Wang Chongyang won. He couldn't be challenged anymore by West Venom. Even if West Venom wanted to do that the others wouldn't allow it. (With Ouyang Feng's fame he wouldn't even take advantage of such a situation). Remember that Huang Yaoshi refused to fight Hong Qigong after Hong had a battle with Ouyang Feng.
It lasted that long because each and everyone was given a fair chance to win.
It wasn't like the four of them would take turns challenging only Wang Chongyang it was contest between 5 superior martial arts masters. But for all we know the tournament could have been like the TVB 1994 LOCH adaption, who knows?
In the end he won we don't know by how much.
It was stated in the novel somewhere that Wang Chongyang's level of martial arts was a level higher than the other Greats. But that isn't conclusive.
Because in ROCH it was written that the Golden Wheel Monk's martial arts was also a level higher than Li Mochou.
A level higher is a very ambiguous term (in Jin Yong novels).
I for one find the the statements of the Five Masters much more reliable than an ambiguously used term.
But that's me.........
The five masters did not compare their late teacher and Zhou Botong to Xiao Longnu. Furthermore they could not even see what stances she used. She was so incredibly fast, they could only see flashes of light. (They were not the only ones, even the Imperial Priest etc. were unable to see what stances she used). Furthermore they did not witness the feat Guo Jing accomplished at the Mongolian camps. They were thinking about martial arts in general, about who is capable of holding ground against the attacks of these four. Although it was not mentioned but they must have been impressed that a young girl could keep those martial artists at bay. Because Xiao Longnu was fighting a losing battle at that time.

Qiu Chuji and others now turned around and were observing the battle between Xiao Longnu and the Imperial Priest etc. After observing for a few moments, they looked at each other and looked very sad and depressed. They thought: "In vain.....everything was in vain. We never thought that the martial arts of the Ancient Tomb School would be this magnificent. We can never defeat her in this lifetime."
The martial arts previously displayed by Yang Guo and Xiao Longnu were the blueprints for their ponderings and contemplation. But the incredible, fantastic swordsplay of Xiao Longnu was too awesome. They could not even see what those stances are, how could they think of a way to counter it?
The Imperial Priest and the other Mongolian warriors had higher martial arts than the Five Masters of Quanzhen. It was practically impossible for the Quanzhen School to even produce someone like them now.
Qiu Chuji and others thought:"If our late Master is still alive he would surely be superior to them, our martial uncle Zhou is probably also one level higher than these four men in the field of martial arts. Yet, when facing the combined forces of these four fighters, chances are high that he will suffer defeat."
The Five Masters were ashamed and depressed, they felt that Quanzhen was degrading with each generation. They could not carry on the legacy of their patriarch anymore. When faced with a great enemy it seems that Quanzhen School has no leg to stand on anymore.
However their new technique [The Seven Star Assembly] has overcome the Lamaist Sect of Mongolia. Which will benefit the protection of the country to outer invasions. Wulin quarrels are trivial, but protecting one's nation is vital. Losing to the Ancient Tomb School is of no concern, but losing to the Mongolians is not an option.
I translated this bit from the novel (edition 3).
We all agree that Li Mochou is nowhere near Imperial Priest Jinlun, but Jin Yong used the term [he was one level above her.]
Therefore the term is ambiguous [one level above someone], it could mean the discrepancy between Wang Chongyang and the other Greats was as big as the gap between Imperial Priest Jinlun and Li Mochou.
Wang Chongyang did defeat the four Greats, but one can remove the [just] part. We do not know how he won. Was it really a just call? Or did he simply defeated them plainly? We do not know, it is unfair to state that Wang Chongyang was just a bit better than the remaining 4 Greats.
The Imperial Priest did do his best against Xiao Longnu, he was impressed and overawed but that didn't stop him from trying his best to defeat her.
He did not hold back, he even threw in his Five Wheels Enciclement again, which failed again.
His Dragon Elephant Wisdom Skill should be present even 16 years ago. Albeit not level 10 but still it should be a level 9. I agree that Imperial Priest Jinlun should be half a level below the Greats.
The four of them (including Ni Moxing, Yin Kexi and Xiaoxiang Zi) were closing in on Xiao Longnu. They did not attack furiously, because they knew if they attacked they could not match the speed of Xiao Longnu. So they defended with everything they had and slowly stepped forward to close her in.
They were fighting optimally against Xiao Longnu.
What I am saying is that 16 years ago, even the remaining Greats could not defeat these four experts. And at that time the remaining Greats were all nearly 80 years old.
Granted, if the evaluation of the 5 Masters is true.
Plus Wang Chongyang raised his martial arts level again with the Jiuyin manual. He absorbed the essence of Jiuyin just by reading it for more than 10 days, he became proficient in it----> edtion 3.
It is very possible that the 4 Greats at the end of ROCH caught up with Wang Chongyang, because at that time all of them were almost 100 years old. And had another extra 16 years to cultivate their internal power.
Personally, if we assume that the assumption made by the Five Masters is correct: Wang Chongyang can fend off the combined attack of those 4 Mongolian experts and defeat the four of them.

Wang Chongyang died probably when he was 80+ years old. Wang's talent in martial arts was said to be superior (or at least not inferior) to the other Greats including Qiu Qianren and Zhou Botong. Like some of the other Greats Wang Chongyang had access to Jiuyin. Wang Chongyang successfully absorbed the essence of Jiuyin into himself. I think it is very unlikely that the other Greats (including Zhou Botong and Qiu Qianren) have caught up with Wang Chongyang's level (when Central Divinity was 80 years old) when they are just 70+ (pre 16 years ROCH) or even 50 +, 60 in LOCH.
I think Wang Chongyang (before his death 80+ years old) should have at least the same level of the other Greats (90+ years old) at the end of ROCH.

None of the other Greats had freebies like Yang Guo (gall bladder), the only freebies some of them had was Jiuyin and Wang had that too. He died two years after the tournament, he had Jiuyin in his possession. The novel said he attained profiency in the art of Jiuyin.
The excuse "didn't have the time to study" is nonsense!
Chen Jialuo only "trained" the Chuangtzu martial arts for a few days and immediately he was able to defeat a martial arts expert who was before half a level better than himself easily. Did Yuan Chengzhi train the martial arts of the Golden Snake Swordsman all the time? No, he hardly studied the thing! But he could use parts of those skills to defeat an opponent (evil Taoist priest Yuzhen Zi) who was probably as good as his own teacher.
Discussing martial arts between two masters can be a very long process! How does he know that it lasted for 1 day, Hu Fei in the Young Flying Fox had an informal discussion on martial arts with Qin Naizhi of the Baji School, that informal chat lasted for over an hour. Hu Fei had another informal chat on martial arts with Ji Xiaofeng of the Huashan Fist School, that chat lasted an entire morning. (Dawn till noon). Hu Yidao and Miao Renfeng discussed martial arts from dusk night to morning.
Can you imagine how long a talk on martial arts between those 5 Greats could last?

The first part of the analysis made by the Five Masters was already correct. Zhou Botong, himself, knew he wasn't a match for those 4 (Golden Wheel Monk) if they combined forces. And they haven't seen Zhou for about two decades, but they were correct. The argument: peer review is also flawed. Yideng/Duan Zhixing was a peer of Wang Chongyang in name. Wang defeated Duan Zhixing and was superior to him, how can they be peers? Murong Fu was a peer of Xiao Feng too, a peer in name. Would Murong Fu be able to make a clear analysis of Xiao Feng's martial arts level?
Even if he made one, would we find it believable? About the Huang Yaoshi aged 30 and Yang Guo aged 20 bit. It is not that 30 year old Huang Yaoshi's internal strength is a bit better than Yang Guo.
The reason why that roar of Yang was so powerful was because of Huang Yaoshi. Huang Yaoshi used his internal energy to help Yang recover a day earlier, however Yang Guo had Ancient Tomb and Jiuyin energy stored in him. Adding the different style of internal power of Huang Yaoshi, his body needed to vent out everything.
The abundant powerful energy of East Heretic, the Ancient Tomb stored energy (because of the Ice bed) and the Taoist fluent Jiu Yin. Result is a roar that can only be produced by someone like a Great.
Huang Yaoshi's comment was how is it possible that this child is able to do such a feat at his age. What kind of strange encounter(s) did he have? Huang, himself, was only capable of doing such a thing (a roar of a Great) when he was 30.

On the disciples of Wang Chongyang; Quanzhen disciples v.s. Disciples of the other Greats.
There lies the contradiction (in my eyes). Ouyang Ke was often ranked as equal to the mercenaries of Wanyan Honglie (Sha Tongtian, Peng Lianhu, etc.) but also he was also sometimes ranked as equal to Ma Yu, Qiu Chuji and Wang Chuyi.
In chapter 11 the part where Yang Tiexin met up with Qiu Chuji again after all those years, we can see that Peng Lianhu, Hou Tonghai and Ouyang Ke combined forces to attack Qiu Chuji. Qiu Chuji held his ground and reached a stalemate with them. If Ouyang Ke was equal to Qiu Chuji, with the assistance of two other peers of himself wouldn't he be able to kill Qiu Chuji rather fast? But that doesn't happen. A poisoned Ma Yu was able to ward off a combined attack of Sha Tongtian and Liang Ziweng (again two martial artists ranked as peers of Ouyang Ke) for a short while.
*1 Qiu Chuji began to lose when all of them (including Liang and Sha) attacked him.
Sha Tongtian, someone who was often ranked as equal to Ouyang Ke throughout the novel, clashed palms with Qiu Chuji. Qiu was only a bit shocked to see that this bald man can take his palm, Sha's arm felt numb and pain. Sha Tongtian engaged Qiu Chuji again with bare hands, Qiu Chuji whisked him on his head with his fingers; leaving red imprints on the bald head of Sha. Qiu Chuji was able to force Peng Lianhu to drop one of his Judge's brushes in a few bouts.
It would seem that one on one, those mercenaries of Wanyan Honglie are inferior to Qiu Chuji (and subsequently Ma Yu and Wang Chuyi as well*2)

*1: This happened before Ma Yu was poisoned.
*2: Ma Yu, Qiu Chuji and Wang Chuyi were all the three strongest of the Seven Masters. Ma Yu's fighting skills and technique wise profiency was said to be a bit inferior to Qiu Chuji and Wang Chuyi. (Although, I think he makes up for that with more stronger and abundant internal energy. Jin Yong never said that Ma Yu had the strongest or deepest internal strength compared to the others, but he did always stress that Ma Yu had deep and profound energy more than he did with the others).

My look at this is: How can Ouyang Ke be equal to the Seven Masters, and also to those mercenaries? Did Jin Yong mean that they belonged to the same class category? That is possible, but as equals that would seem not true.
Lav ranked the weaker masters of Quanzhen as equals to the mercernaries (including Ouyang Ke), while Ma, Tan, Liu, Qiu, Wang were a notch better.
If you read some of Laviathan's posts on ranking LOCH and ROCH mid-level fighters in the past, you often would see that in his eyes Sun Bu'er (or Hao Datong)= Ouyang Ke.

On the top of that, Ma Yu and Qiu Chuji were able to do some things that impressed Huang Yaoshi a bit.
Qiu Chuji was able to whisk Huang in the chest with his sleeve, but that was because Huang underestimated Qiu. But nonetheless, not bad for old Qiu.
Ma Yu counter attacked Huang Yaoshi's attack during their battle in Misty Rain Pavilion. Huang Yaoshi stormed at Ma, assuming that Ma would not be able to do anything but move away from his key position in the formation. But Ma Yu raised his sword and counter attacked. His technique was steady and firm, generated with powerful internal energy. Huang Yaoshi moved away and genuinly praised:"Worthy of being the Quanzhen head disciple!"

And in the third edition Hong Qigong already studied the entire set of the Dragon Subduing Palms prior to the first tournament.
About the Huang Yaoshi aged 30 and Yang Guo aged 20 bit. It is not that 30 year old Huang Yaoshi's internal strength is a bit better than Yang Guo.
The reason why that roar of Yang was so powerful was because of Huang Yaoshi. Huang Yaoshi used his internal energy to help Yang recover a day earlier, however Yang Guo had Ancient Tomb and Jiuyin energy stored in him. Adding the different style of internal power of Huang Yaoshi, his body needed to vent out everything.
Yang Guo at the age of 20 something is definitely not capable of producing 'Great' roars all the time.
The abundant powerful energy of East Heretic, the Ancient Tomb stored energy (because of the Ice bed) and the Taoist fluent Jiu Yin. Result is a roar that can only be produced by someone like a Great.
Huang Yaoshi's comment was how is it possible that this child is able to do such a feat at his age. What kind of strange encounter(s) did he have? Huang, himself, was only capable of doing such a thing (a roar of a Great) when he was 30.
At the age of 30, Huang Yaoshi was capable of producing roars that were extremely powerful, meaning he (and the other greats) was (were) certainly not weak as you put it.

[tape]

I've read this post several times over the years but I still believe your opinions are all speculations just like mine. You point out very valid points, but I cannot accept that a tournament that lasted 7 days and 7 nights where the other Greats imply that Wang edged out a victory, albeit a clear one, could be that much superior to the rest of them. It'll be hard to conclusively prove on either side methinks.

[Athena]

I've read this post several times over the years but I still believe your opinions are all speculations just like mine. You point out very valid points, but I cannot accept that a tournament that lasted 7 days and 7 nights where the other Greats imply that Wang edged out a victory, albeit a clear one, could be that much superior to the rest of them. It'll be hard to conclusively prove on either side methinks.

Your argument is only the seven days things. Which is, in my humble opinion, a very weak argument.
I hate to bring in the author's intention point in again. Although, Jin Yong did not use it that strongly in Central Divinity's case, as in the cases Dugu Qiubai or Xiao Feng, but it is still very present. The man already created a handful of those 'Uber' peerless 'dudes' is it necessary to create another "right in your face peerless guy'?
Wang Chongyang's superiority is more subtle and discreet.
The point is that Jin Yong (most likely) never intended Wang Chongyang to be a lucky old Taoist priest who won marginally over the other Greats. And around the second Tournament at Mount Hua, the others have greatly surpassed him.
That may have been the case in the very first edition, but now all those traces have been eliminated.

[Ren Wo Xing]

I've read this post several times over the years but I still believe your opinions are all speculations just like mine. You point out very valid points, but I cannot accept that a tournament that lasted 7 days and 7 nights where the other Greats imply that Wang edged out a victory, albeit a clear one, could be that much superior to the rest of them. It'll be hard to conclusively prove on either side methinks.

I think this sums up everything perfectly; the 7 days/nights argument is, in fact, a very credible and strong piece of evidence. Only people with vaguely similar levels of martial arts compete for that long.

From the first Huashan Lunjian to that point in ROCH, between three and four decades have passed, and all of the Greats have since made vast, vast improvements.

I do not find it credible that if Wang Chongyang was forty years ahead of the others in ability at that time, that it is possible that any battle or challenge would have taken seven days and seven nights. If he was that far ahead of them, then in a single battle with any of the other Greats, they would have seen that they had no chance at all against him.

Let's look at actual examples. Guo Jing, who was only perhaps 20% weaker than Huang Yaoshi by the end of ROCH, still wouldn't have lasted three hundred stances (probably not even a hundred) if Huang Yaoshi was serious from the get go, and Huang Yaoshi clearly was superior to him; there was absolutely no doubt in the minds of anyone present that Guo Jing might be even equal to Huang Yaoshi. From this we can tell that against experts, even such a 'small' difference is very obvious, and more than enough for the stronger expert to dispose of the weaker one relatively easily.

I do not find it feasible in any way that Huang Yaoshi and the other Greats had a starting level that was both high enough to leave the issue of superiority in martial arts as compared to Wang Chongyang in doubt for a relatively long period of time, as well as low enough so that even three to four DECADES worth of training later, they still had not reached Wang Chongyang's level. That completely lacks internal logic.

I take the quote from the Quanzhen Five in a way similar to but subtly different from how you interpret it: Simply put, "Quanzhen's generations are getting worse and worse." Whether or not Wang Chongyang actually would be stronger than JLFW is not the point; the point is on the fact that each generation of Quanzhen is less and less talented, less and less able. They were not trying to make a judge of Wang Chongyang's skills; they just wanted to point out the overall decrease in ability. In fact, if you really want to get into an in-depth analysis about this, it's arguable that in their self-condemnation, it only helps to 'play up' Wang Chongyang's skills to themselves, as it makes their own difference/fall in martial arts ability all the more greater and gives them more ammo to continue to berate themselves with. Or, to put it another way, depressed people tend to find ways to make/keep themselves depressed.

By the way, it's so nice to discuss stuff like this, even if it has been discussed to death, than power rangers

[Athena]

I think this sums up everything perfectly.

From the first Huashan Lunjian to that point in ROCH, between three and four decades have passed, and all of the Greats have since made vast, vast improvements.

I do not find it credible that if Wang Chongyang was forty years ahead of the others in ability at that time, that it is possible that any battle or challenge would have taken seven days and seven nights. If he was that far ahead of them, then in a single battle with any of the other Greats, they would have seen that they had no chance at all against him.

Let's look at actual examples. Guo Jing, who was only perhaps 20% weaker than Huang Yaoshi by the end of ROCH, still wouldn't have lasted three hundred stances (probably not even a hundred) if Huang Yaoshi was serious from the get go, and Huang Yaoshi clearly was superior to him; there was absolutely no doubt in the minds of anyone present that Guo Jing might be even equal to Huang Yaoshi. From this we can tell that against experts, even such a 'small' difference is very obvious, and more than enough for the stronger expert to dispose of the weaker one relatively easily.

I do not find it feasible in any way that Huang Yaoshi and the other Greats had a starting level that was both high enough to leave the issue of superiority in martial arts as compared to Wang Chongyang in doubt for a relatively long period of time, as well as low enough so that even three to four DECADES worth of training later, they still had not reached Wang Chongyang's level. That completely lacks internal logic.

I take the quote from the Quanzhen Five in a way similar to but subtly different from how you interpret it: Simply put, "Quanzhen's generations are getting worse and worse." Whether or not Wang Chongyang actually would be stronger than JLFW is not the point; the point is on the fact that each generation of Quanzhen is less and less talented, less and less able. They were not trying to make a judge of Wang Chongyang's skills; they just wanted to point out the overall decrease in ability. In fact, if you really want to get into an in-depth analysis about this, it's arguable that in their self-condemnation, it only helps to 'play up' Wang Chongyang's skills to themselves, as it makes their own difference/fall in martial arts ability all the more greater and gives them more ammo to continue to berate themselves with. Or, to put it another way, depressed people tend to find ways to make/keep themselves depressed.

Again the argument is only the seven days things is, in my humble opinion, a very weak argument.
I hate to bring in the author's intention point in again. Although, Jin Yong did not use it that strongly in Central Divinity's case, as in the cases Dugu Qiubai or Xiao Feng, but it is still very present. The man already created a handful of those 'Uber' peerless 'dudes' is it necessary to create another "right in your face peerless guy'?
Wang Chongyang's superiority is more subtle and discreet.
The point is that Jin Yong (most likely) never intended Wang Chongyang to be a lucky old Taoist priest who won marginally over the other Greats. And around the second Tournament at Mount Hua, the others have greatly surpassed him.
That may have been the case in the very first edition, but now all those traces have been eliminated.

Have you even ever read my entire post? They were observing how a young girl could keep a bunch of top-notch experts at bay. They are not able to do it and they are thinking of the people they know/knew who had that ability.

[Ren Wo Xing]

I did indeed read your massive post, and noted that you responded to mine with a copy/paste.

Please address this point, if you wish to address no others:

I do not find it feasible in any way that Huang Yaoshi and the other Greats had a starting level that was both high enough to leave the issue of superiority in martial arts as compared to Wang Chongyang in doubt for a relatively long period of time, as well as low enough so that even three to four DECADES worth of training later, they still had not reached Wang Chongyang's level. That completely lacks internal logic.

[Athena]

Forgive me for not seeing the highlighted part earlier, hierarch Ren! Because I read your post before you highlighted, Hierarch Ren!

Could Yin Tianzheng with another thirty years of 'normal' training reach the martial arts level of Zhang Sanfeng? Could Li Mochou with another forty years of orthodox training reach the level of the post 16 year ROCH? Or could Ke Zhen'E ever reach the level of Hong Qigong with another 50 years of conventional training?
There are talent limits and even year limits. With another 30 to 40 years they were finally gap that distance between themselves and Wang. I find that there is nothing wrong with that.
Murong Fu and Xiao Feng were ranked as peers. However, it is very obvious that Xiao Feng is very much superior to Murong Fu. If both North Qiao Feng and South Murong lived to be 70 there is still a gap between these two gentlemen.
However, if Murong Fu did not go insane and started to train intensively yes, he would be able to reach Xiao Feng's level in another 30 years training.