Wang Chongyang vs ALL 4 PRE-LOCH Greats, in a duel to the death

[PJ]

30 years before DGSD, Xiao Yuanshan single-handedly wiped out an assembled team of elite martial artists; only a few lucky members survived, including Shaolin Abbot Xuanci, former Beggar's Union Chief Wang Jiantong, the nameless Zhao Qiansun, and Reverend Zhiguang. These survivors were able to live either because they had fainted (Zhao and Zhiguang), or Xiao Yuanshan intentionally spared them (Wang and Xuanci). But Abbot Xuanci knew that eventually they would have all been wiped out if the battle continued. Now, 30 years later, Xiao Yuanshan is roughly the equal of 3 Xuanci's. Also given that Xuanci was supposed to be the best in the pre-30 years team, it's probably reasonable to assume that 30 years ago, Xiao was also just 3 times better than Xuanci. And yet, Xiao took on much more than 3 Xuanci's and won, because it was a duel to the death and he went all-out. Reasonably, I would think that Xiao Yuanshan accomplished the equivalent of "= 3 but wiped out 4".

Now, let's look at the LOCH situation. IF Wang Chongyang were the equal of 3 Greats at first Huashan Tournament (which would seem to be the case if he = post-ROCH Greats), do you think he could wipe out all 4 of them if they decided to gang up on him in a duel to the death?

[Dennis Chen]

How many Xuanci's does it take to equal one Great (that's not Wang Chongyang)?

[augster123]

can somebody tell me exactly how powerful was the average pre-LOCH great? or maybe mention the names of some other characters of similar level?

[batmankiller]

pre-LOCH great was probably..a bit stronger than JLFW

[yittz]

If WCY was more than 2x a pre-LOCH great, I don't see the point of having a Mt Hua. Why take 7 days to discuss martial arts with people so much inferior. It's like ZWJ inviting the Du monks and Chengkun to battle over 9Yang. No where does it say WCY is 3 greats.

I don't get the question anyway, if it was assumed XF = 3 Xuan Ci, then of course 4 XC would defeat XF. Unless you asking whether he would escape with his life or that the Greats would work against each other.

[shortsight]

pre-LOCH great was probably..a bit stronger than JLFW

I thought it was during the whole ROCH that the great roughly = JLFW. Pre-LOCH should be nowhere near JLFW of ROCH.

[augster123]

what do u guys think of these comparisons:

pre-LOCH great = GJ at end of LOCH?
pre-LOCH great = MRF/DCQ/DYQ?
pre-LOCH great = a "Xuan" generation monk?
pre-LOCH great = a "Du" generation monk?
pre-LOCH great = castrated YBQ/ZLC?

[Ken Cheng]

what do u guys think of these comparisons:
pre-LOCH great = GJ at end of LOCH?

I don't know about the other comparisons, but this one seems pretty reasonable to me.

[PJ]

If WCY was more than 2x a pre-LOCH great, I don't see the point of having a Mt Hua.

True, but they might not have known each other's exact level until they actually dueled in Mount Hua? It was mentioned that at the time when Lin Chaoying dueled with Wang Chongyang, Wang knew that he was one level above Huang Yaoshi, but he might not have known just how much superior he was.

I don't get the question anyway, if it was assumed XF = 3 Xuan Ci, then of course 4 XC would defeat XF.

Not Xiao Feng, but Xiao Yuanshan. 30 years ago, a team of 21 First Class fighters attacked Xiao Yuanshan. They were utterly destroyed by Xiao. Now, in present-day DGSD, Xiao Yuanshan =~ 3 Xuanci's. 30 years ago, it's reasonable to assume that Xiao also =~ 3 Xuanci's. Well, Wang Jiantong was probably also around Xuanci's level 30 years ago, so that's 2 Xuanci's power already. The combined power of the remaining 19 First Class Fighters should definitely account for at least 2 Xuanci's power. So I am assuming that 30 years ago, the team of 21 First Class Fighters would be around the level of 4 Xuanci's. Xiao Yuanshan =~ 3 Xuanci's, but he was able to destroy the equivalent of 4 Xuanci's in utter rage.

[CC]

Would you consider Xuanci to be more then 2 or 3 Reverend Zhiguangs or Zhao Qiansuns? Its quite hard to think that 20+ of the _elite_ best of the Central Plains are not equal to the younger Xuan Ci and Wang.

This is another case of JY and his famous lack of wuxia math.

Another thing, you are not going to come up with a new 'Khitan Rage' theory right? Like how some YG fans claim sadness makes YG 2/3/4x more powerful, you aren't going to suggest that rage makes XYS 2/3/4x more powerful as well?

[K2Grey]

I think it is better to introduce Plot Device Power.

[Ren Ying Ying]

I don't know about the other comparisons, but this one seems pretty reasonable to me.

end LOCH great can beat them previous selves in less than 300 stances? i highly doubt so.

[PJ]

To CC: All of the 21 members of the assault team was said to be pre-30 years First Class Fighters. So yeah, I think the combined power of 19 of them should have been the equal of at least 2 Xuanci's.

Xiao Yuanshan definitely gained some momentum in his rage, it was quite amazing that he destroyed this elite team from the Central Plain. His opponents weren't prepared to face such a powerhouse though.

end LOCH great can beat them previous selves in less than 300 stances? i highly doubt so.

300?? I think 30 stances should decide the winner.

[CC]

300?? I think 30 stances should decide the winner.

Oh man, this is going to revert back to the Zhong Shen Tong debate again!

If an End-LOCH Great [ELOCHG or 2HSG(2nd Hua Shan Great)] can defeat a 1st Hua Shan Great(1HSG*) within 30 strokes and WCY is about equal to an End-ROCH Great (EROCHG or 3HSG) then even if we scale the EROCHG equivalent WCY back to ELOCHG standards, why would an ELOCHG (much less an EROCHG!) require 7 days and 7 nights of exhaustive debate and spars to determine a clear superiority when 30 x 4 stances should be sufficient?

*Technically, 1st Hua Shan non Wang Chong yang Great (1HSnWCYG) but its rather unwieldy!

[Bangs]

1 vs 4 is not really in favor of WCY even if its a duel to the death. Those 4 are martial geniuses, even in their earlier years they are already very formidable. I vote for WCY winning in a last man standing match though.

[augster123]

well, in novel of ROCH, WCY was said to be at least equal to pre-16 year Golden Wheel Monk + the 3 lackeys. more stuff to think about/consider before casting the vote => is a team of 4 pre-LOCH greats better or suckier than pre-16 year GWM+ 3 lackeys?

[PJ]

I doubt the Pre-LOCH Greats are at the level of Duan Yanqing yet./

[Dennis Chen]

To CC: All of the 21 members of the assault team was said to be pre-30 years First Class Fighters.

The 5 Greats were way above the first class fighters of their day. The Quanzhen 7 Zhi were all considered first class fighters but no where near the Greats. The Xiao Yao Er Xian were first class fighters but the 2 together couldn't defeat 1 Zhang Wuji. The 4 Da Hu Fa were first class fighters but the 4 together wouldn't be able to defeat Zhang Wuji. Xiao Longnu's elder martial sister was likely the most formidable woman of her day, however, she was no where near the match of the Greats at the beginning of ROCH. The Jiang Nan 7 Guai were considered top fighters but they were barely a match for Qiu Chuji. An inexperienced Zhang Wuji was able to hold his own against the first class fighters of all the major schools of HSDS. It's obvious that Jin Yong wanted some of his characters to be head and shoulders above "first class" fighters.

[yittz]

HYS praising YG. How old did HYS say he was when he did a similar roar to YG (when YGwas only 20?), like 36 right. HYS would be around that age during Mt Hua. So his internal at 1st Mt Hua, was only around that of YG's pre-HIS (his techniques may have been better). To think WCY can be bothered with 4 of these fighters is astounding. Surely a ROCH great (which is what we assume WCY is) can defeat 4 fighters with that low level internal backing at most equal techniques.

[Ren Ying Ying]

HYS praising YG. How old did HYS say he was when he did a similar roar to YG (when YGwas only 20?), like 36 right. HYS would be around that age during Mt Hua. So his internal at 1st Mt Hua, was only around that of YG's pre-HIS (his techniques may have been better). To think WCY can be bothered with 4 of these fighters is astounding. Surely a ROCH great (which is what we assume WCY is) can defeat 4 fighters with that low level internal backing at most equal techniques.

from what i remember, it said HYS achieved it post-30, so he still had quite some time for improvement or major martial arts break throughs before the tourny. also, it was also mentioned that one of the causes for YG's howling was because HYS had given YG some energy a while earlier and it somehow evoked YG's internal energy to release, or something along those lines. since i'm assuming HYS probably reached that stage without outside help, at above age 30 he was still above YG's level at 20.