Dugu versus Dugu...

[Huang Rong]

if the Swordless Dugu of ROCH vs the Nineswords Dugu of XAJH, who will really be Qiubai?

Some information:

The Swordless Dugu of RoCH is described to be able to swordlessly overcome any other swordman.

However, the Nineswords Dugu of XAJH is not by any means less monumental, he is said to be capable of overcoming opponents whose the amount of internal energy is boundless.

[Ren Ying Ying]

i don't see the distinction.

are we pretending that the swordless dugu knows nothing about dugu 9 sword?

and that the 9 swords dugu knows nothing about being swordless?

personally, i don't think a swordless dugu is achievable without the knowledge of dugu 9 sword. yet, at the same time, dugu 9 sword would probably not be executed to its full potential if dugu had not considered the possiblity of no swords since it is suppose to be an index of ALL sword style under heaven...

such contradictions

[LuNaR]

9 swords win easy. dogu w/o a sword probably cant even handle ling hu chong

[david1025]

Overcoming the sword without the sword is the highest level so obviously he will win and also Dugu in the no sword level knows Dugu 9 swords

[LuNaR]

Overcoming the sword without the sword is the highest level so obviously he will win and also Dugu in the no sword level knows Dugu 9 swords

dogu only defeated all the swords man at that time w/o a sword, but that doesnt say much considering there was nobdy at his level at his time. dogu w/o a sword is way overrated. 6msj is a better no sword technique

[david1025]

dogu only defeated all the swords man at that time w/o a sword, but that doesnt say much considering there was nobdy at his level at his time. dogu w/o a sword is way overrated. 6msj is a better no sword technique

You cant compare 6msj to Dugu's no sword because no one was able to master no sword besides Dugu and Dugu did not made any appearance

[Huang Rong]

i don't see the distinction.

are we pretending that the swordless dugu knows nothing about dugu 9 sword?

and that the 9 swords dugu knows nothing about being swordless?

such contradictions

even if they are the same in martial art knowledge as you write, there's still an important difference, that is the Swordless Dugu does not have any sword in his hands whereas the NineSwords Dugu does.
If Dugu No-Sword was invincible to any other swordsman during his lifetime, would he still be so to himself supported with a sword?

[FruityPunch]

However, the Nineswords Dugu of XAJH is not by any means less monumental, he is said to be capable of overcoming opponents whose the amount of internal energy is boundless.

Doesn't appear logical to me. Jinyong shouldn't have added such a sentence.

Dugu Qiubai being able to use any object as a sword was probably due to his immerse inner strength. Anyone who can wield that Heavy Iron Sword like an ordinary sword must have had quite high inner powers. The focus was not on flashy elaborate techniques but on his inner strength. This was well demonstrated by Yang Guo.

Yang Guo was able to wield a heavy sword-like club (Heavy Iron Sword) to defeat all his adversaries at the Chingyang Shrine because of his inner strength and the quality of the weapon. People are finding it hard to evade such a massive and lethal weapon infused with inner strength that just won't break. This is logical.

You wave a sword at me and I'll club you into the 9th Level of Heaven using a giant steel bat. My one stroke of "No Stance" beats your elaborate "72-Stance-Whatever" sword dance because of my much superior inner strength.

For Linghu Chong, it's exactly the opposite. Despite having weak or no inner strength for much of the time, he was able to defeat his opponents easily. This is illogical. If you have no inner strength, you can't even display basic qinggong (lightness kungfu), not to mention stabbing opponents in flash-like movements.

Linghu Chong waves a sword at Yang Guo, and Yang Guo will raise his sleeve and send out a wave of Sad Palms. Linghu Chong, having no inner strength, will be mutilated on the spot with one direct blow to the face.

And if I had "boundless inner strength", I'll just "tap" my opponent. No need for a sword.

[shortsight]

if the Swordless Dugu of ROCH vs the Nineswords Dugu of XAJH, who will really be Qiubai?

Some information:

The Swordless Dugu of RoCH is described to be able to swordlessly overcome any other swordman.

However, the Nineswords Dugu of XAJH is not by any means less monumental, he is said to be capable of overcoming opponents whose the amount of internal energy is boundless.

I would put it this way: Since dugu was so powerful in his time that no one could withstand a few stances, there's no more joy in his wins using a sword. The only thing that could excite him is if he tried some fancy things, which resulted in him trying to beat his comtemporaries without using a sword. And the resultant result is still the same, which dugu won easily.

in this case, it does not mean that dugu without sword is an even higher level than dugu with sword, just that his contemporaries were so weak that there's no difference whether he uses a sword or not.

to put it in analogy, consider a chess grandmaster. he can easily defeat an amateur. to add more interesting and to balance his oppenent weaknesses, grandmaster normally plays simultaneous games against tens of amateur oppenents at the same time. still the grandmaster wins. there's also cases where the chess grandmaster plays blindfolded against the amateurs. still the grandmaster wins. in this case, it does not mean the grandmaster who plays blindfold and win against the amateur is of higher level than the grandmaster than beats the amateur without blindfolding himself, it's just that the opponent is so weak that there's no big news in beating the amateur without any handicap. imagine 2 grandmasters play each other, with one blindfolded and one seeing the chessboard, then there's no question who's gonna win. the win is certainly going to be the grandmaster seeing the board.

applying this to dugu now, when there are 2 dugus: one with sword, one without, i would rather believe dugu with sword will eventually wins. dugu with sword means full stength, dugu without sword means he's not in full strength, but still more than enough to beat anyone, so to the observers, there's no difference, and it seems higher level.

[kwekmh]

I would put it this way: Since dugu was so powerful in his time that no one could withstand a few stances, there's no more joy in his wins using a sword. The only thing that could excite him is if he tried some fancy things, which resulted in him trying to beat his comtemporaries without using a sword. And the resultant result is still the same, which dugu won easily.

in this case, it does not mean that dugu without sword is an even higher level than dugu with sword, just that his contemporaries were so weak that there's no difference whether he uses a sword or not.

to put it in analogy, consider a chess grandmaster. he can easily defeat an amateur. to add more interesting and to balance his oppenent weaknesses, grandmaster normally plays simultaneous games against tens of amateur oppenents at the same time. still the grandmaster wins. there's also cases where the chess grandmaster plays blindfolded against the amateurs. still the grandmaster wins. in this case, it does not mean the grandmaster who plays blindfold and win against the amateur is of higher level than the grandmaster than beats the amateur without blindfolding himself, it's just that the opponent is so weak that there's no big news in beating the amateur without any handicap. imagine 2 grandmasters play each other, with one blindfolded and one seeing the chessboard, then there's no question who's gonna win. the win is certainly going to be the grandmaster seeing the board.

applying this to dugu now, when there are 2 dugus: one with sword, one without, i would rather believe dugu with sword will eventually wins. dugu with sword means full stength, dugu without sword means he's not in full strength, but still more than enough to beat anyone, so to the observers, there's no difference, and it seems higher level.

That is not the meaning of no sword.

The way that DGQB described how he gradually reached the stage makes it sounds like it has to be a much higher stage.