Revisiting the Wang Chongyang Debate

[Ren Wo Xing]

While rereading the LOCH, I came upon what I believe to be the ONLY line from a Great which compares themselves directly to Wang Chongyang, by Hong Qigong in chapter 12.

"当年在华山绝顶与王重阳、黄药师等人论剑之时，这套掌法尚末完全练成，但王重阳等言下对这掌法已极为称道 。后来他常常叹息，只要早几年致力于此，那么“武功天下 第一”的名号，或许不属于全真教主王重阳而属于他了。"

"Previously, during the last Huashan Tournament with Wang Chongyang, Huang Yaoshi, and the rest, he hadn't fully mastered this set of palms, yet Wang Chongyang and the others already praised this set of palms most highly. Later he (Hong Qigong) would often lament that if only he had finished learning this set of palms a few years earlier, the title of "Number One Pugilist in the World" might not have fallen to Quanzhen's leader, Wang Chongyang, but instead fallen to him."

This only goes to support the argument I and some others have been making; that the difference between Wang Chongyang and the other Greats probably wasn't very great at all. Aside from the logical suspension of disbelief that would be required for us to imagine that a Wang Chongyang who was tremendously superior to the other Greats in martial arts would take seven days to prove it, this comment from Hong Qigong suggests that he feels he might not have lost to the Wang Chongyang of the Huashan conference if he had (as he presumably had at this point in the story) finished mastering the XL18Z, and, ergo, that he felt that he was, by mid-LOCH, at the rough level of, and perhaps higher than, the WCY he fought at Huashan.

How to explain the Quanzhen students claim that Wang Chongyang could take JLFW and the other pugilists in ROCH, though?

After thinking about it some more, I thought of only one possible solution (besides them being full of it): Jiuying Zhenjing. We know from Zhou Botong that simply reading it without even the intent to learn or practice was already enough to give him great benefits; for Wang Chongyang, who not only read, but supposedly pondered over JYZJ until he fully understood it, the benefits were probably significant as well. When we add in the factor that he was originally at a considerably higher level than ZBT to begin with, with better knowledge and understanding of the martial arts (that he created), the possibility that he was brought to a very high level by 9YZJ seems to be very high. Although he never taught it to his students, his own martial arts level would have had to increase substantially.

So after careful consideration, my current thinking is that at the time of the Huashan conference, Wang Chongyang>~the other Greats, but after the reading and understanding of 9YZJ, he gained great benefits, perhaps enough to propel him to a level high enough to match ROCH Greats, although I personally think this still involves a bit of a fudge factor on the part of the Quanzhen seven; their prediction of ZBT being higher than JLGS, after all, didn't seem to be on the money.

Thoughts? Of course, this is second edition; was the line taken out in third?

[Neo26988]

Reading the line, it's based upon HQG's own opinion. Which i'm not suggesting is wrong. But HQG just speculates that he might've been higher than WCY. But in saying that, HQG would've been objective enough to be able to comment if he believed he could've overcame WCY or not.

But from what I heard, the line was removed in the 3rd edition, wasn't it?

[Extremer88]

Did Wang Chongyang learned completely the Jiuyin Zhenjing, or just practice a portion of it? If so, then I believe he will be on par with the ROCH Greats, including Zhou Botong (who seems to be the most powerful at the end ROCH).

I personally rate Wang Chongyang quite highly.

[Xiao Feng]

Reading the line, it's based upon HQG's own opinion. Which i'm not suggesting is wrong. But HQG just speculates that he might've been higher than WCY. But in saying that, HQG would've been objective enough to be able to comment if he believed he could've overcame WCY or not.

But from what I heard, the line was removed in the 3rd edition, wasn't it?

Nevertheless, that tells you that WCY wasn't head and shoulders better than the other greats. If WCY was significantly better than HQG, he wouldn't be making that opinion.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Did Wang Chongyang learned completely the Jiuyin Zhenjing, or just practice a portion of it? If so, then I believe he will be on par with the ROCH Greats, including Zhou Botong (who seems to be the most powerful at the end ROCH).

I personally rate Wang Chongyang quite highly.

It's said in the book that he fully absorbed the essence of 9YZJ after a few reads, which implies that he fully learned it. The extent to which it improved him is less known.

Reading the line, it's based upon HQG's own opinion. Which i'm not suggesting is wrong. But HQG just speculates that he might've been higher than WCY. But in saying that, HQG would've been objective enough to be able to comment if he believed he could've overcame WCY or not.

But from what I heard, the line was removed in the 3rd edition, wasn't it?

If it was, Athena didn't mention it in her thread; I believe the change was that HQG's XL18Z was, instead of partially self-created, passed down fully from the XL28Z of XF via XZ.

[Neo26988]

Nevertheless, that tells you that WCY wasn't head and shoulders better than the other greats. If WCY was significantly better than HQG, he wouldn't be making that opinion.

Yep. And I acknowledged this.

Like Extremer, I rate WCY highly. I don't think he was head and shoulder's above at the tournament per se, but he was at least a level high enough that all four greats acknowledged his superiority.

[tape]

ROCH greats don't seem to only be one level ahead of their pre-LOCH days. At the very least, they are 1 level ahead of their LOCH days, which in turn should be at least 1 level ahead of the time they competed in the tournament.

[Dennis Chen]

At Tao Hua Dao, when Ouyang Feng and Hong Qi arrived to help plead the case for Huang Rong's hand in marriage for their respective charges, it didn't take too long into the argument between the 2, that they both started fighting. Huang Yaoshi was surprised at the ferocity and the improvement of the 2 enemies. Huang Yaoshi had assumed that after Wang Chongyang's death, he would be number 1 after all his training. They were all still equals.

[PJ]

Good topic.

Here is what I think. When Jin Yong wrote LOCH, perhaps he did NOT anticipate a sequel which will extend the lives of the Greats by 35+ more years. Therefore, Jin Yong wrote LOCH intending Wang Chongyang to be only marginally above the Greats, which was sufficient to make his point. However, when Jin Yong wrote the continuation of LOCH, he decided to maintain Wang Chongyang's superiority. What would have been nice is if he revised the contradictory content LOCH, but he didn't.

That's why the evidences from LOCH and those from ROCH regarding Wang Chongyang's actual martial arts level don't really match up, and we usually have to wreck our brain trying to make sense of ALL the evidences.

[batmankiller]

Good topic.

Here is what I think. When Jin Yong wrote LOCH, perhaps he did NOT anticipate a sequel which will extend the lives of the Greats by 35+ more years. Therefore, Jin Yong wrote LOCH intending Wang Chongyang to be only marginally above the Greats, which was sufficient to make his point. However, when Jin Yong wrote the continuation of LOCH, he decided to maintain Wang Chongyang's superiority. What would have been nice is if he revised the contradictory content LOCH, but he didn't.

That's why the evidences from LOCH and those from ROCH regarding Wang Chongyang's actual martial arts level don't really match up, and we usually have to wreck our brain trying to make sense of ALL the evidences.

I agree COMPLETELY to PJ's theory cuz when he first started writing, it was for a newspaper or something so he wasn't even sure if he was given a chance to finish the story let alone.. be able to continue the sequel.

[Ren Wo Xing]

At Tao Hua Dao, when Ouyang Feng and Hong Qi arrived to help plead the case for Huang Rong's hand in marriage for their respective charges, it didn't take too long into the argument between the 2, that they both started fighting. Huang Yaoshi was surprised at the ferocity and the improvement of the 2 enemies. Huang Yaoshi had assumed that after Wang Chongyang's death, he would be number 1 after all his training. They were all still equals.

True, but the assumption HYS made was based on OYF and HQG not improving; since we are looking at WCY at the point of the Huashan tournament, a static point in time, the issue of improvement is moot, coming into play only at a later possible point in time, perhaps with 9YZJ.

RE PJ: Good point, perhaps. It would've been nice if JY edited those things out if that was the case in his later editions though

[pannonian]

I agree COMPLETELY to PJ's theory cuz when he first started writing, it was for a newspaper or something so he wasn't even sure if he was given a chance to finish the story let alone.. be able to continue the sequel.

Wasn't the newspaper HIS? Unless he decided to editorialise his novels out, when AFAIK they were the main attraction of the newspaper, then he was guaranteed a platform. Perhaps someone with better knowledge of this than wiki can clarify.

[Noodles]

From chapter 4 of ROCH:

“先師見那岩石触手深陷，就与上次一般無异，更是惊奇，心想：『黃藥師的
功夫明明遜我一籌，怎地也有這等厲害的指力？’

This is the part where Qiu Chuji is retelling the story of the origin of the Ancient Tomb sect to Guo Jing. Here, Wang Chongyang clearly felt that he was a level above Huang Yaoshi in martial arts and this was before he read the Nine Yin Sutra. How much better than someone else are you if you are a level better? It depends on the reader's interpretation.

In chapter 22:

說到武功內力，法王均胜一籌，何況李莫愁手中又抱著一個嬰儿，按理不到百
招，她已非敗不可。

Jinlun was described as being a level higher than Li Mochou so the gap between Wang Chongyang and the other greats could be as great as the gap between Jinlun and Li Mochou. Of course, it could be much smaller.

As for Qiu Chuji and co's judgement from chapter 26:

法王等四大高手的武功都在全真五子之上，此時全真教中要有如此一個都是千
難万難。丘處机等心想：“若是先師在世，自能胜得過他們，周師叔大概也胜他們
一籌，但若同時受這四人圍攻，十九要抵敵不住。”

The only thing that's really clear is that Qiu Chuji and co felt that Wang Chongyang and Zhou Botong is better that Jinlun and the other fighters individually. So is Zhou Botong better than Jinlun at this point in the novel? In my opinion, yes.

One, from chapter 16:

那老人右手抄起，平平托在胸前，突然間盤中一塊牛肉跳將起來，飛入他口中，
猶如活了一般。忽必烈看得有趣，只道他會玩魔術，喝一聲采。金輪法王等卻知那
老人手掌局部運力，推動盤中的某一塊牛肉激跳而出。常人隔著盤子用力擊敲，原
可震得牛肉跳起，但定是眾肉齊飛，汁水淋漓，要牛肉分別一塊塊躍出卻万万不能，
這老人的掌力實已到了所施無不自如的境地，席上眾人自量無法做到，不由得均生
敬畏之心。

Everyone including Jinlun was quite alarmed with what Zhou Botong could do.

From chapter 24:

法王雙眉微皺，心想此人武功奇妙，極不好惹，問道：“王爺在后面么？”

Jinlun would rather avoid a confrontation with Zhou when he first saw him and when he discovered that Zhou had taken the royal flag, instead of trying to get it off him in a fight there and then, Jinlun resorted to tricking Zhou instead. You could say Jinlun was being smart for once and saving himself a lot of work but its pretty clear that Jinlun wasn't confident in beating Zhou at all if it came down to it.

N.B: All the above quotes are from the second edition of ROCH.

[PJ]

This is the part where Qiu Chuji is retelling the story of the origin of the Ancient Tomb sect to Guo Jing. Here, Wang Chongyang clearly felt that he was a level above Huang Yaoshi in martial arts and this was before he read the Nine Yin Sutra.

In this context, Wang Chongyang thought that he was one level above the Pre-LOCH Huang Yaoshi. That was about 20 years before the beginning of LOCH. The Post-ROCH Greats have improved at least 3 to 4 times since then.

[Noodles]

In this context, Wang Chongyang thought that he was one level above the Pre-LOCH Huang Yaoshi. That was about 20 years before the beginning of LOCH. The Post-ROCH Greats have improved at least 3 to 4 times since then.

Yes. I'm responding to what Ren Wo Xing said about Wang Chongyang>~the other Greats at the first Huashan conference. Rather than just Wang Chongyang>~the other Greats, I'm suggesting that Wang Chongyang>the other Greats at that time.

So with a 'level' greater than the other Greats plus later Nine Yin 'boost' as it were, it is possible that Wang Chongyang reached a level that is around the pre 16 year ROCH Greats. As for his exact level, we've only got the judgement of his students and Zhou. Zhou's statement post 16 years about Wang being able to defeat the post 16 year Jinlun within several stances is rather far fetched. As for his student's judgement, I've pointed out how they could be correct regarding the comparison with Zhou and Jinlun.

[Ren Wo Xing]

RE Noodles:

I went back and looked over the first quote, and I have to raise two issues with it.

The first is that the timing is actually undated; although the events of LCY tricking WCY happened before the first Huashan tournament, it was left unstated as to when, exactly, HYS was invited by WCY to come to Chongyang mountain, saying only that it was 'afterwards'. If we follow the (IMO logical) assumption that WCY only became friends with HYS after the Huashan tournament, the timing of this quote would very likely be after he learned 9Ying.

This wouldn't be out of touch with WCY's character; we know, after all, that he was a proud man, and that LCY was constantly on his mind; hence he even went to her tomb and used the Quanzhen+9YZJ to show that WCY was 'never surpassed' in his lifetime. It's quite possible and likely that the issue which forced him to become a Taoist in the first place, as well, was something that was on his mind for many years, until he finally met HYS at Huashan and made friends with the old weirdo.

The second is that even if the timing of the event was before Huashan, those weren't WCY's thoughts, those were Qiu Chuji's storytelling portrayals of WCY's thoughts. I very much doubt Qiu Chuji knew WCY's thoughts, and WCY being the enlightened Taoist that he was, probably wouldn't have told his students that he felt the other Greats were 'a level beneath him'.

Regarding the JLFW episode, I think that's more emblematic of his character to be sneaky and underhanded. Witness his attempt to take over Wulin with his disciples, the chasing of pregnant HY, the relief he felt when he found out YG and XLN were parted, his plot to burn GX to lure out GJ, etc. etc.

Much later on, when he actually DID fight Zhou Botong, Zhou Botong felt that he was unable to withstand the power of the LXBRG, resorting to his Kongming Quan, but it was stated that by doing so, he would be unable to win as well; in essence, purely playing defensively. This, to me, suggests that most likely ZBT wouldn't have been able to defeat JLFW, at least post-18 years, especially considering their relative age difference.

[Ren Ying Ying]

From chapter 4 of ROCH:

“先師見那岩石触手深陷，就与上次一般無异，更是惊奇，心想：『黃藥師的
功夫明明遜我一籌，怎地也有這等厲害的指力？’

This is the part where Qiu Chuji is retelling the story of the origin of the Ancient Tomb sect to Guo Jing. Here, Wang Chongyang clearly felt that he was a level above Huang Yaoshi in martial arts and this was before he read the Nine Yin Sutra. How much better than someone else are you if you are a level better? It depends on the reader's interpretation.

In chapter 22:

說到武功內力，法王均胜一籌，何況李莫愁手中又抱著一個嬰儿，按理不到百
招，她已非敗不可。

Jinlun was described as being a level higher than Li Mochou so the gap between Wang Chongyang and the other greats could be as great as the gap between Jinlun and Li Mochou. Of course, it could be much smaller.

As for Qiu Chuji and co's judgement from chapter 26:

法王等四大高手的武功都在全真五子之上，此時全真教中要有如此一個都是千
難万難。丘處机等心想：“若是先師在世，自能胜得過他們，周師叔大概也胜他們
一籌，但若同時受這四人圍攻，十九要抵敵不住。”

The only thing that's really clear is that Qiu Chuji and co felt that Wang Chongyang and Zhou Botong is better that Jinlun and the other fighters individually. So is Zhou Botong better than Jinlun at this point in the novel? In my opinion, yes.

Even if we were to considered Zhou to be the better one, he is clearly not miles ahead of Jinlun. Even the matter whether or not Zhou is better at all is quite debatable. Nevertheless, Qiu Chuji used the word "level" quite liberally when comparing Zhou & Jinlun. The difference of a level can vary between the difference between Zhou & Jinlun or the difference between Li Mochou & Jinlun? Or, is the gap between Zhou & Jinlun really that vast?

[PJ]

Yes. I'm responding to what Ren Wo Xing said about Wang Chongyang>~the other Greats at the first Huashan conference. Rather than just Wang Chongyang>~the other Greats, I'm suggesting that Wang Chongyang>the other Greats at that time.

So with a 'level' greater than the other Greats plus later Nine Yin 'boost' as it were, it is possible that Wang Chongyang reached a level that is around the pre 16 year ROCH Greats. As for his exact level, we've only got the judgement of his students and Zhou. Zhou's statement post 16 years about Wang being able to defeat the post 16 year Jinlun within several stances is rather far fetched. As for his student's judgement, I've pointed out how they could be correct regarding the comparison with Zhou and Jinlun.

Well, The 5 Masters of Quanzhen's thoughts are in clash with Hong Qigong's thoughts. The 5 Masters thought Wang Chongyang was > Jinlun, but Hong Qigong thought he could have surpassed Wang had Hong began training XL18Z just a few years prior.

Not to mention, at the end of ROCH, Huang Yaoshi half-jokingly said that Wang Chongyang would have difficulty defeating Little Dragon Girl. Zhou Botong, who worships Wang very much, did not object to such a statement.

[sixdays]

another interesting point to note is the speed with which WCY could learn kungfu. I'm thinking of the time when he faked his death and used Solitary Yang Finger to defeat OYF, and keep him from taking the 9yin.

that brings a plus and a minus for WCY --- he is clearly able to defeat another Great not only in sparring, but in real life. However, he had to use 1deng's martial art to do it, not his own QZ. how does that play out?

another question: why does he object to using 9yin, but has no problem learning 1yang finger to defeat others? seeing as 9yin is based in taoism, it should be an even closer fit philosophically to WCY's existing kung fu.

frankly, i think it's pride and jealousy in WCY. for most of his life, he was the premier taoist martial artist. QZ is recognized as the best Taoist school in the world, with incredibly strong fundamental martial arts. Then along comes this little book, also based in Taoism, and it makes what he thought up look like junk...

[Ken Cheng]

another question: why does he object to using 9yin, but has no problem learning 1yang finger to defeat others? seeing as 9yin is based in taoism, it should be an even closer fit philosophically to WCY's existing kung fu.

frankly, i think it's pride and jealousy in WCY. for most of his life, he was the premier taoist martial artist. QZ is recognized as the best Taoist school in the world, with incredibly strong fundamental martial arts. Then along comes this little book, also based in Taoism, and it makes what he thought up look like junk...

I think Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung might have been afraid of the 9 Yum Jen Ging's power...and what it could do if it fell into the wrong hands. Realizing that the 9 Yum Jen Ging outstripped his and the other Greats' native martial arts, it must have given Wong Chung Yeung nightmares to think that the likes of Au Yeung Fung might get his hands on this manual. It would be a disaster for wulin.