ROCH Internal Energy Levels

[ChronoReverse]

This is actually correlated with the ROCH Greats topic but I felt that one had strayed a bit off so I'll start a new, more focused topic.


I had been rereading ROCH and found a few things that are rather interesting.

If Li Mochou really caught up, what should I do?” Although he had learned the “Jade Heart Manual” and “Nine Yin Manual”, and possessed two of the greatest skills in the world of Wulin, he had only practiced them for a short time. Though he understood the essence behind them his internal energy wasn’t deep enough. If Li Mochou caught up he would not be a match for her and in broad daylight there wasn’t anywhere to hide.

From this it is very clear that LMC has higher internal energy than YG, so much that even her comparatively inferior techniques is not a hindrance.

When Li Mochou roamed Jianghu, what the martial artists of the Jianghu world were afraid of was not her kung fu, but her ‘Divine Five Poison Palm’ and her ‘Soul Freezing Silver Needles’. In the ‘Five Poison Codex’, it had the types of poison, its concentration, the antidote and the processing technique of the ‘Divine Five Poison Palm’ and ‘Soul Freezing Silver Needles’. If the secrets were leaked, the ‘Scarlet Serpent Deity’ would be like a poisonous snake without its fangs.

This shows that although LMC's kungfu was high, it wasn't so high that she could roam fearlessly if not for her poison.


Yet, about 5 years ago...

After Ke Zhen E exchanged a few moves with Li Mochou, he knew that he wasn’t her match and thought, “That witch’s skills are high, not below the once alive Mei Chao Feng.

LMC is not below MCF?

Yang Guo was startled; he immediately laughed out loud, “Ha-ha-ha-ha, hei-hei-hei-hei, hu-hu-he-he”, and circulated the profound internal energy of the “Nine Yin Manual”. Although he hadn’t refined this internal energy to a good level that could be used to fight off skilled fighters, the three band five beggars were just run of the mill fighters. When they heard this strange laugh, they couldn’t stop their heads from shaking and eyes from being dazzled; their bodies shook a few times and they fell down onto the ground.

YG did indeed learn a portion of the 9 Yin internal energy script.

Note that there multiple sections of internal energy training in the 9 Yin manual. The part that was in Chinese was similar to QZ internal energy (which is already Great level) but more advanced. The Sanskrit portion contained the highest level but was not available to YG.


Also...

The two of them slept in the day and practiced at night. In a few months, Xiao Longnu had completed learning the “Jade Heart Manual”. A month or so later, Yang Guo also finished. The two had completed everything and had nothing to do, and so Yang Guo mentioned going out into the world again.

YG had, at this point, trained into no less than THREE Great-level internal energy arts as well as slept on the Jade Stone Bed for several years.

Yet his internal energy was still below LMC. And LMC in turn was demonstrated to be FAR below HYS.

Years ago he had used his jade flute to compete against Ouyang Feng’s iron zither and Hong Qi Gong’s whistling and fought to a draw. That was many years ago; because of his age, his vigor wasn’t what it used to be but his internal energy became more and more profound as he practiced. How could Li Mochou resist? In just a short while she felt her mind slipping out of her control.

Huang Yaoshi’s song and tune would suddenly turn joyous, then anger, resounding and overbearing, then suddenly lowly and humble, many changes in the wink of an eye. He was forcing Li Mochou to suddenly feel delight and then sorrow, suddenly anger then worry; when this song finishes, Li Mochou would have been forced to go mad.

[ChronoReverse]

I couldn't find the post where there were some claims about the difference between GJ and GWM during the Heroes' Meeting so I'll also put some points here.

I want to point out that both GWM and GJ were using lethal killing blows. There was no quarter left at all from either

Guo Jing saw him staring angrily at Yang Guo, his shoulder was raised and arm taken back, Guo Jing knew that he was about to kill him, he called out in quietly, “Oh no!” If he took a step forward, he would still be able to block this attack but Yang Guo would still suffer a serious injury. In this urgent situation there was no time to think carefully, he used a stance of “Flying Dragon in the Sky”, his whole body leapt into the air, and attacked Jinlun Fawang’s head. If Jinlun Fawang didn’t take back this palm, though he would be able to kill Yang Guo, his life would be taken away under the matchless lethal and swift Dragon Subduing Palm. The force of his palm quickly turned around, he gave a ‘hei’ shout, and exchanged palms with Guo Jing.

GJ was aiming to kill to force GWM to take on the blow. GWM was using a killing blow to start with.

Of course, GWM underestimated GJ and would've died had they continued



And finally, for fun, yet another mean-spirited display of how pathetic GWM can be:

Jinlun Fawang saw that the sword stances of the two were becoming stranger and stranger, but they were matching each other; all the weaknesses of one were covered by the strengths of the other, and the lethal aspects of the stances were increasing without end. He was becoming more and more frightened, thinking, “The world is a large place, indeed there are many able people; how could I ever dream of such unimaginable swordplay in Tibet? Ai! I’m just a frog at the bottom of the well; I have seen little of the world’s heroes.” He was disheartened and looked even more like a defeated man.

[batmankiller]

They were both using lethal blows but i doubt GJ had 100% internal energy in the attack for obvious reasons. We know GJ is an honorable man and considering YG was the one that stepped in the middle of the fight.. yea it's understandable that GLFW would be mad

And by the way, I would like to comment of why I think GLFW IS NOT a great from your descriptions of LMC and YG.

HYS DOMINATED LMC.. to the point where she had to fly away and HYS wasn't even going 75%.. he just wanted to scare her off. GLFW and LMC could fight to draws and so could YG and GLFW to the point where YG didn't automacily lose like LMC did. Now if LMC> YG in internal.. and HYS defeated LMC using raw internal energy why couldn't JLFW defeat YG even more easier if JLWF is supposedly a great. And don't say maybe JLFW made up his internal energy with his techniques because A) HYS has one of the best techniques around.. (formations and all that) B) JLFW has probably one of the worst techniques around hence why jade maiden swordplay could beat him, and the only way JLFW could've won was if he exploited his superior internal energy.

Now the question is this, if GLFW is really a great why can't he beat YG as easily as HYS defeated LMC if in fact LMC> YG in a fight.

[sarakoth]

They were both using lethal blows but i doubt GJ had 100% internal energy in the attack for obvious reasons. We know GJ is an honorable man and considering YG was the one that stepped in the middle of the fight.. yea it's understandable that GLFW would be mad

And by the way, I would like to comment of why I think GLFW IS NOT a great from your descriptions of LMC and YG.

HYS DOMINATED LMC.. to the point where she had to fly away and HYS wasn't even going 75%.. he just wanted to scare her off. GLFW and LMC could fight to draws and so could YG and GLFW to the point where YG didn't automacily lose like LMC did. Now if LMC> YG in internal.. and HYS defeated LMC using raw internal energy why couldn't JLFW defeat YG even more easier if JLWF is supposedly a great. And don't say maybe JLFW made up his internal energy with his techniques because A) HYS has one of the best techniques around.. (formations and all that) B) JLFW has probably one of the worst techniques around hence why jade maiden swordplay could beat him, and the only way JLFW could've won was if he exploited his superior internal energy.

Now the question is this, if GLFW is really a great why can't he beat YG as easily as HYS defeated LMC if in fact LMC> YG in a fight.

GWM was so close to GJ that God . . . I mean narrator stated that a fight between them would last beyond 1000 stances.

[ChronoReverse]

They were both using lethal blows but i doubt GJ had 100% internal energy in the attack for obvious reasons. We know GJ is an honorable man and considering YG was the one that stepped in the middle of the fight.. yea it's understandable that GLFW would be mad

The quote and the context clearly stated that GJ used a lethal move and could not hold anything back because he had to save YG's life.

I'm not objecting to the assessment that GWM may have been a bit below GJ. I'm objecting to the blatant disregard for what happened in your posts.

GWM was so close to GJ that God . . . I mean narrator stated that a fight between them would last beyond 1000 stances.

Actually, the narrator only stated that the difference between them could not be determined within 10's of stances.

[yittz]

HYS DOMINATED LMC.. to the point where she had to fly away and HYS wasn't even going 75%.. he just wanted to scare her off. GLFW and LMC could fight to draws and so could YG and GLFW to the point where YG didn't automacily lose like LMC did. Now if LMC> YG in internal.. and HYS defeated LMC using raw internal energy why couldn't JLFW defeat YG even more easier if JLWF is supposedly a great. And don't say maybe JLFW made up his internal energy with his techniques because A) HYS has one of the best techniques around.. (formations and all that) B) JLFW has probably one of the worst techniques around hence why jade maiden swordplay could beat him, and the only way JLFW could've won was if he exploited his superior internal energy.

Now the question is this, if GLFW is really a great why can't he beat YG as easily as HYS defeated LMC if in fact LMC> YG in a fight.

How did GWMvs.GJ come into a LMC and YG comparison? Where in the novel did it state or imply that GWM = LMC or preHIS-YG. GWM was about to kill YG in one blow and YG can't do jack about it and you state YG and GWM will fight to a draw.

[batmankiller]

GWM was so close to GJ that God . . . I mean narrator stated that a fight between them would last beyond 1000 stances.

explain my post then of LMC HYS YG and GLFW

[batmankiller]

How did GWMvs.GJ come into a LMC and YG comparison? Where in the novel did it state or imply that GWM = LMC or preHIS-YG. GWM was about to kill YG in one blow and YG can't do jack about it and you state YG and GWM will fight to a draw.

I based it on the performance that GLFW NEVER took out LMC or YG with such ease and power-overwhelming that HYS demonstrated on LMC. And furthermore GWM was only able to kill YG because one.. he was distracted by the safety of XLN.. two he protecting her from GLFW.. and if you remember.. XLN and YG defeated GLFW with jade maiden sword play.. and they would've and almost defeated Gongsun zhi. And even though GLFW could've and should've beaten them.. HE DIDN'T.. does this mean that Gongsun Zhi = GLFW.. no.. but it sure means that GLFW is far below a great.. and I think all these situations should eliminate the scene of GJ vs GLFW.

FURTHERMORE: YG had GLFW's number when he used dog beating stick although he was far inferior in terms of internal energy...

[tape]

HYS has a special skill that overwhelms anybody far below him, while GWM doesn't. This doesn't make HYS better, as it's obvious theyre roughly equals from all other evidence. He just happens to have a unique skillset. What if there was a scene where the Greats seperately had to cut down trees really fast to make rafts? I'm sure GWM with his 5 wheels encirclement would totally overwhelm them, but it doesn't prove he's better. It's just a unique skillset. That was a rather bad analogy, but hopefully my point is clear.

[yittz]

I based it on the performance that GLFW NEVER took out LMC or YG with such ease and power-overwhelming that HYS demonstrated on LMC. And furthermore GWM was only able to kill YG because one.. he was distracted by the safety of XLN.. two he protecting her from GLFW.. and if you remember.. XLN and YG defeated GLFW with jade maiden sword play.. and they would've and almost defeated Gongsun zhi. And even though GLFW could've and should've beaten them.. HE DIDN'T.. does this mean that Gongsun Zhi = GLFW.. no.. but it sure means that GLFW is far below a great.. and I think all these situations should eliminate the scene of GJ vs GLFW.

FURTHERMORE: YG had GLFW's number when he used dog beating stick although he was far inferior in terms of internal energy...

Point 1: I thought it was already explained in the other thread why GLFW could not kill LMC with a baby. GLFW wanted the baby alive, not to crush both LMC and the baby with his overwhelming internal. We agree XLN roughly = LMC yes? We agree that XLN cannot take 3 proper strokes from GLFW yes? So logically...
It's not like GLFW ever wanted to kill and was given the opportunity to do so like HYS (let me remind you, she got away 2x and HYS is no chokester like GLFW). H7G never took out LMC with such ease as HYS, neither did YD, OYF or WCY, therefore they most not be as GREAT as HYS...

Point 2: YG vs GLFW - YG's sifu couldn't take 3 strokes, do you think he can? YG and XLN vs GLFW at restaurant - they had too use lightness kungfu to constant dodge head on attacks. Jade skill relied on technique to defeat GLFW. It was never tried on other greats, so how can we be sure it won't give them difficulty either. In truth, GLFW could have defeated it using his strength, but he was too cautious thinking that the Jade skill had hidden lethal strokes (which it doesn't as it is purely defensive).

Point 3: Don't get your logic with GSZ. GSZ would have lost against Jade if it wasn't for passionflower. XLN with jade and L/R easily defeated GSZ. But this is irrelevant.

Point 4: You joking right? YG was clearly losing and retreating, and you say YG had GLFW's number...

[batmankiller]

Point 1: I thought it was already explained in the other thread why GLFW could not kill LMC with a baby. GLFW wanted the baby alive, not to crush both LMC and the baby with his overwhelming internal. We agree XLN roughly = LMC yes? We agree that XLN cannot take 3 proper strokes from GLFW yes? So logically...
It's not like GLFW ever wanted to kill and was given the opportunity to do so like HYS (let me remind you, she got away 2x and HYS is no chokester like GLFW). H7G never took out LMC with such ease as HYS, neither did YD, OYF or WCY, therefore they most not be as GREAT as HYS...

Point 2: YG vs GLFW - YG's sifu couldn't take 3 strokes, do you think he can? YG and XLN vs GLFW at restaurant - they had too use lightness kungfu to constant dodge head on attacks. Jade skill relied on technique to defeat GLFW. It was never tried on other greats, so how can we be sure it won't give them difficulty either. In truth, GLFW could have defeated it using his strength, but he was too cautious thinking that the Jade skill had hidden lethal strokes (which it doesn't as it is purely defensive).

Point 3: Don't get your logic with GSZ. GSZ would have lost against Jade if it wasn't for passionflower. XLN with jade and L/R easily defeated GSZ. But this is irrelevant.

Point 4: You joking right? YG was clearly losing and retreating, and you say YG had GLFW's number...

XLN took more than 3 strokes from GLFW inside the cave in which ZBT was held.. BEFORE she learned L/R.. so there you go. Ok all the situations you said of how XLN or YG were "losing" they still had chances to fight back.. HYS unleashed like i don't even know if that was a stance.. and I have to agree LMC unleashed many stances of "Hands holding Ears going Crazy" technqiue.. other than that she was couldn't even retreat until HYS let go of her. This wasn't the case for YG XLN or LMC.. true the baby.. but still get away from him.

And sure XLN and YG defeated GLFW with Jade Maiden Swordplay and they did it to GSZhi the same way. The time involved was pretty much on par. And guess what.. just cuz GLFW COULD'VE but is too stupid to unleash weaknesses and holes is his fault.. the same way people blame the fact that ZWJ has no fighter instincts and therefore often discredit his abilities by a long shot.

The point of the matter i'm trying to say is if we assume XLN=LMC>YG
And if HYS DESTROYED LMC.. yet GLFW had to go through much more trouble and the fight look less dominating.. I think it's pretty clear GLFW was not great calibur.

[ChronoReverse]

HYS used a special attack that was especially effective against people who are in emotional turmoil.

In LOCH, it was undeniable that ZBT was way above young GJ. Yet GJ was able to resist the song while ZBT wasn't.

The song they used in this instance was about love and LMC was particularly affected by it.

[PJ]

he point of the matter i'm trying to say is if we assume XLN=LMC>YG
And if HYS DESTROYED LMC.. yet GLFW had to go through much more trouble and the fight look less dominating.. I think it's pretty clear GLFW was not great calibur.

Those maths can be misleading when applied to different people under different circumstances. For example in HSDS, Zhang Sanfeng subdued one Xuanming Elder in one stance, whereas Zhang Wuji could not subdue Fan Yao after 70+ stances. Since Fan Yao was not a match for the Xuanming Elder, should we deduct from the outcomes that Zhang Sanfeng is actually 100 times better than Zhang Wuji? Obviously not.

[batmankiller]

Yes but ZWJ was using sword techniques, something he's new to even though he mastered taichi swordplay.. furthermore he had no intention of harming FY considering he already said to FY "blah blah you have no intentions of harming me.. may i ask for your name but in every one of those fights with GLFW.. he went all out and still couldn't defeat LMC/XLN/YG the same way HYS did with much less effort

[PJ]

he [GWM] went all out

He usually didn't. For example in the fight in Chongyang shrine in which he competed with Xiaolongnu's 4 swords and almost lost, it was stated that if he would have used more strength, Xiaolongnu would have lost.

It has already been argued by others that GWM did not go all out on Li Mochou.

It has also been established that Huang Yaoshi's flute was specifically detrimental to Li Mochou, but if he used other techniques, the win may not be as easy.

[ChronoReverse]

GWM did not go all out on LMC at all. It clearly stated that LMC used the baby as a shield and GWM retracted his attacks because of that. Nonetheless, within 100 stances, GWM figured a way to snatch out the baby anyways.


Here's another fun bit with the inexplicable inability of people to kill defenseless young women

At this juncture, Fawang’s golden wheel had sliced her head-on; Quanzhen Five Master’s “Seven Star Rally” pummeled her in the back. The attack was supposed to keep Nimoxing at bay, but the Indian short man had already suffered the bitter taste of the pile driver. So he had no second thoughts of matching it and evaded to the left. The attack was alternatively expended upon Xiao Longnu’s garment.

XLN was hit by the combined energies of the 5 QZ masters (enough to blow apart rock like gunpowder) and GWM at the same time. How on earth did she not die instantly?

Now had XLN been resisting, this isn't hard to believe. At this point her internal energy was significant (although not even up to the Mongolian Warrior's levels). But it said that she was completely off-guard because she spotted YG and completely stopped.

[sixdays]

GWM did not go all out on LMC at all. It clearly stated that LMC used the baby as a shield and GWM retracted his attacks because of that. Nonetheless, within 100 stances, GWM figured a way to snatch out the baby anyways.


Here's another fun bit with the inexplicable inability of people to kill defenseless young womenXLN was hit by the combined energies of the 5 QZ masters (enough to blow apart rock like gunpowder) and GWM at the same time. How on earth did she not die instantly?

Now had XLN been resisting, this isn't hard to believe. At this point her internal energy was significant (although not even up to the Mongolian Warrior's levels). But it said that she was completely off-guard because she spotted YG and completely stopped.

There is a martial art in Jin Yong's world that is superior to any other. no, i'm not talking about 9yin, or even 9yang -- in fact, that art is called:

PLOT DEVICE!

you can't kill XLN, man...the story would be over. you can't have GLFW win, or the story would be over. you can't have YG lose, because that would make the hero look lame. sometimes, potential doesn't equal real world events.

[Ken Cheng]

you can't have YG lose, because that would make the hero look lame.

Heroes lose a great deal on the way up. It's called character growth and development. In the Jin Yong world, especially, the hero who first appears fully-formed and invincible (i.e. Kiu Fung) is the exception.

[sixdays]

Heroes lose a great deal on the way up. It's called character growth and development. In the Jin Yong world, especially, the hero who first appears fully-formed and invincible (i.e. Kiu Fung) is the exception.

i agree, for the most part. i should have been more clear; i was thinking about YG vs. GLFW, and how he won each time by a technicality rather than pure skill, until the last fight between them. even then, YG won by a bit of a fluke since he already injured himself protecting GX, and lost his fighting spirit. seriously, i should start a new topic entitled: Why is GWM such a terrible clutch player in fights?

no fighting sense at all, that guy.

[Ken Cheng]

i should start a new topic entitled: Why is GWM such a terrible clutch player in fights?

no fighting sense at all, that guy.

Last summer, we had a member named Wu Wudi whose sole mission here at the Wuxia Forum was to show how big a choker the Golden Wheel Monk was. Look up some of Wu's posts: they're hilarious.