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Thread: GJ's Legacy

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    Senior Member sixdays's Avatar
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    Default GJ's Legacy

    We all know from the end of ROCH that GJ's son, Guo Polu, was useless when it came to martial arts. i believe he died in battle as a soldier, which means he was brave, but he had no exceptional martial arts to speak of (inherited GJ's monster eyebrows though). The Wu brothers, GJ's personal disciples, were greatly eclipsed by YG by the time the kid was 16, even though the brothers had 1 Yang Finger on their side. Guo Fu was, well, negligible...Guo Xiang is the only one that turned out to be any good, creating E Mei Sect (even though she had to become a nun to do it).

    For such an incredible martial artist (most people, me included, believe him to be above the Greats by the end of ROCH), i wonder: why did GJ have such terrible students? in contrast, all of the other Greats had some kind of student to carry on their legacy: H7G and HYS had the Guo couple, OYF had OYK (who was pretty good in his day), 1Deng had his 4 disciples that were famous throughout the realm, and WCY had of course all of QZ. after all, it's not like you had to be a great teacher to have a great follower: H7G made fun of GJ the whole time he taught the kid, HYS crippled all of his students, OYF was a bastard, etc.

    so this is my real question: what if YG, who has proved himself to be a martial arts prodigy, hadn't lost his arm and instead inherited all of GJ's martial arts? This YG would a completed set of 9yin and HL18Z, not to mention both arms. i can see this YG becoming head of the Beggar Clan also, and learning DBStick from HR.

    how would you compare this YG, heir to GJ's legacy, to the YG in ROCH with one arm and DGQB's theories?

    note: this isn't a vs. thread, nor will it turn into GJ vs YG. i'm saying, knowing YG's style of learning and application of martial arts, which set would result in the best martial artist?
    Last edited by sixdays; 05-09-07 at 10:30 PM.
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    Senior Member Xiao Feng's Avatar
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    YG is YG. He's not GJ mk II. Won't work. He's a rebel by nature, likes to do things his own way and be free to muck about. I feel he'll learn some things from GJ which will aid him, but the rest of his accomplishment in martial arts will be from his own exploration.

    The learning curve that JY picked for YG is tailor fit. He tasted numerous different martial arts and theories and then proceeded to create his own.

    And you can forget about him sticking around to inherit all of GJ's (and HR's) massive responsibilities.

    PS: People tend to highlight how GJ never had a proper successor or good student, and attribute that to him being a lousy teacher but ask most good masters and they'll tell you that the most important component of Master-Student-Art is the Student, whatever accomplishment the student will have in the art is mostly down to himself.
    Last edited by Xiao Feng; 05-09-07 at 11:17 PM.

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    Senior Member Snafu3721's Avatar
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    I think that YG does have more of a free spirit. But that doesn't mean he isn't disciplined. He was ale to stick around and learn the Ancient Tomb Martial Arts BEOFRE he realized he loved XLN. Thus displaying his ability to really put forth effort when he felt he was being treated with respect. GJ wuold have been a great teacher for YG.

    In fact, at the beginning of ROCH, it was mentioned that YG eagerly wanted to learn martial arts from GJ. It was just that HR kept trying to teach YG about confucianism and philosophy due to her inherent mistrust of the child. If GJ was completely free to teach YG as he pleases, I believe YG woul have learned all that GJ had to offer.

    GJ did find a suitable sucessor in Yelu Qi, who possessed QZ internal and basics and also learned the full XL18P (and maybe 9-yin, no reason why GJ wouldn't teach him). Not to mention Yelu Qi had a similar personality to GJ. However, if GJ couldn't survive the Mongolian onslaught, I doubt Yelu Qi would've made it out alive either even if he learned all of GJ's skills. It also strikes me that Yelu Qi is the type that would fight till his dying breath much like his father-in-law.
    Last edited by Snafu3721; 05-10-07 at 12:13 AM.

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    Senior Member Xiao Feng's Avatar
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    That's not what I meant.

    YG can put forth the dedication and discipline required when he wants to. he has shown that many times. One doesn't become a great level fighter by being a slacker.

    Oh, he'll have no problems picking up the arts from GJ. Again, that's not what I'm saying. What I mean, is that at one point or another, during his time under GJ, he will not be able to suppress his true self and he will want to roam and do his own thing. The life that GJ led, isn't one that YG will want to lead.

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    Senior Member Snafu3721's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xiao Feng View Post
    That's not what I meant.

    YG can put forth the dedication and discipline required when he wants to. he has shown that many times. One doesn't become a great level fighter by being a slacker.

    Oh, he'll have no problems picking up the arts from GJ. Again, that's not what I'm saying. What I mean, is that at one point or another, during his time under GJ, he will not be able to suppress his true self and he will want to roam and do his own thing. The life that GJ led, isn't one that YG will want to lead.
    Completely agree...

    YG's personality just isn't suited to stay behind and defend Xiang Yang.
    But he might stil be considerd a good successor, although perhaps not a famous one, to GJ's legacy. I think YG would still pass on whatever knowledge he could to his offspring or students if he has any. He just won't become Beggar Clan leader or anything of the typical heroic nature. He might just roam around and do what he did as the Condor hero.

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Aside from Guo Xiang, I think Yelu Qi should be at least as good if not far better than OYK or Yideng's 4 students (he mastered the full 18 palms. Someone who 'only' could master 12 was about as good as Cheng Kun).

    GJ very nearly had Zhang Junbao as his successor. Would have made a great 'what if' scenario. If Zhang could have merged the 9 Yin with his 1/3 of 9 Yang and the Dragon Palms. All Zhang Junbao had to do was not witness that couple when he was on the way to see Guo Jing.
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    Senior Member sheraldine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sixdays View Post
    so this is my real question: what if YG, who has proved himself to be a martial arts prodigy, hadn't lost his arm and instead inherited all of GJ's martial arts? This YG would a completed set of 9yin and HL18Z, not to mention both arms. i can see this YG becoming head of the Beggar Clan also, and learning DBStick from HR.how would you compare this YG, heir to GJ's legacy, to the YG in ROCH with one arm and DGQB's theories?
    yg too much "resourceful" (i dunno the exact word for it, so i used resourceful, okay, ) for gj, that was why he send him to the quenzhen sect in the first place instead of teaching the boy himself. yg should be as good as the top disciple and surpassed yeloqi and many others if he learned from gj, but not as great or established as the one arm roaming condor hero . yg will be forever known as gj's disciple, and not a name by himself - i am not good with the martial discussion, but i can say teacher disciple relation need to have affinity and share certain trait. yg and gj just dont "mix" - no, not like water and oil saying, but more on.... ah, i really dunno how to put it sorry lah

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    Senior Member sixdays's Avatar
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    i think YG's life experiences contributed more to his independent personality than anything else. that's why i'm asking if the 20 year old YG would be a good fit. i think we can all agree that if YG started studying with GJ as a child, he would be an incredible martial artist early on; however, given his stubborn and selfish attitude as a child, he may have used that martial art to kill GJ and HR without the steadying influence of GuGu.

    i shudder to think how close YG could have come to being a villain...

    i think the older YG became much more like GJ than he would have liked to admit. when he was younger, he used to grumble about the morality of the situation and reluctantly give in; however, as he got older he made it a point to attack mongolian camps and destroy morale in order to help GJ. in spite of himself, i think he became patriotic. it's just that GuGu is more important in his life.
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    Senior Member sixdays's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheraldine View Post
    yg too much "resourceful" (i dunno the exact word for it, so i used resourceful, okay, ) for gj, that was why he send him to the quenzhen sect in the first place instead of teaching the boy himself. yg should be as good as the top disciple and surpassed yeloqi and many others if he learned from gj, but not as great or established as the one arm roaming condor hero . yg will be forever known as gj's disciple, and not a name by himself - i am not good with the martial discussion, but i can say teacher disciple relation need to have affinity and share certain trait. yg and gj just dont "mix" - no, not like water and oil saying, but more on.... ah, i really dunno how to put it sorry lah
    sheraldine, are you singaporean? i like people who say "lah", i think it sounds fun.

    on another note, i believe GJ sent YG to QuanZhen because he couldn't get along with the other kids, and HR didn't trust him. GJ still wanted YG to be his personal disciple; it's just that he wanted to let him grow up for a couple years at QZ away from the chaos on Peach Blossom Island.
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  10. #10
    Senior Member sixdays's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    Aside from Guo Xiang, I think Yelu Qi should be at least as good if not far better than OYK or Yideng's 4 students (he mastered the full 18 palms. Someone who 'only' could master 12 was about as good as Cheng Kun).

    GJ very nearly had Zhang Junbao as his successor. Would have made a great 'what if' scenario. If Zhang could have merged the 9 Yin with his 1/3 of 9 Yang and the Dragon Palms. All Zhang Junbao had to do was not witness that couple when he was on the way to see Guo Jing.
    hm. good point on YLQ, as he was ZBT's disciple as well as GJ's son in law. he probably ended up being pretty good -- i wouldn't say he was at a Greats level by a long shot, but even pre-16 years ZBT was saying that YLQ could stand up to any of the current QZ masters (disciples of WCY). he could have only gotten better from there -- probably around YG's level before the 16 years, if YLQ really mastered HL18Z.

    if ZJB would have learned from GJ, however, i think it would have stifled his natural curiosity and creativity. frankly, i would rather that ZJB never have learned 9yin, than for the martial world never to see tai chi.
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    Senior Member Extremer88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sixdays View Post
    i think we can all agree that if YG started studying with GJ as a child, he would be an incredible martial artist early on; however, given his stubborn and selfish attitude as a child, he may have used that martial art to kill GJ and HR without the steadying influence of GuGu.
    I don't think YG would kill GJ. He respected and loved him so much when he was young (the time before going Quanzhen). YG was playful but I don't think he was that evil or willful (to kill GJ and HR) - he was very different from Guo Fu.
    ..ext88

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    Senior Member Xiao Feng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sixdays View Post
    if ZJB would have learned from GJ, however, i think it would have stifled his natural curiosity and creativity. frankly, i would rather that ZJB never have learned 9yin, than for the martial world never to see tai chi.
    Strange that you would feel that way for Z3F but not YG. No HIS and no Sad Palms. I may not be a YG fan but I still appreciate the role he plays in the Wuxia landscape.

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    Senior Member Xiao Feng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Extremer88 View Post
    I don't think YG would kill GJ. He respected and loved him so much when he was young (the time before going Quanzhen). YG was playful but I don't think he was that evil or willful (to kill GJ and HR) - he was very different from Guo Fu.
    Agreed. If he had spent all his time under the tutelage of GJ, he would have picked up a helluva lot more about the Guo couple and the sort of folk that they are. Furthermore, GJ would have had the chance to tell YG all about YK.

    It was evident from early on, from the orphaned YG, what kind of a person he was, before his time with the Guos and before him being sent off to Quan Zhen and the subsequent events.

    I still stay by my early assessment that YG would never become the natural successor to GJ. His character deems that he break out on his own at one point or another, to find his own path in life. He would still easily be GJ's most accomplished student, just not his successor. Even when YG fancied being a hero for awhile, he went about it like Batman, very unlike GJ.

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    Senior Member sheraldine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sixdays View Post
    sheraldine, are you singaporean? i like people who say "lah", i think it sounds fun.

    on another note, i believe GJ sent YG to QuanZhen because he couldn't get along with the other kids, and HR didn't trust him. GJ still wanted YG to be his personal disciple; it's just that he wanted to let him grow up for a couple years at QZ away from the chaos on Peach Blossom Island.
    no lah, malaysian lah "lah" is not a proper language or even dialect, but slang, which we all enjoy using it now and then - or sometime to spice thing up or simply to irk our literate or snooty/snobbish perfect/fluent english speaking fellow(s). however, it is very close to bahasa malaysia "lah" that denotes on remarking thing, (something like japanese "ka" or "sia" that denotes a question mark "nan des ka - what is it?" or "so des ka - is it/is that is?" dunno right or wrong phrase here, crash course from my japanese nephew ) - back to "lah", we called it manglish (malay mix english), just like singapore has their own singlish, i believe.

    ok ok, back to topic before someone complaining, yeah, that too. not that gj cannot handle hr and the rest opinions, but like i said, little yg just too much "resourceful" for him to guide all the time.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    On the subject of Yeung Gor:

    I think Yeung Gor was a product of his times. By that, I don't mean the 13th Century that he "lived" in, but in the 1950s and 1960s pop culture that he was a product of. It was during the 1950s that the teenager emerged as a distinct demographic group and social phenomenon...with its unique developmental characteristics and psychological makeup distinct from both those of children and mature adults. In particular, adolescent rebellion and juvenile delinquency became a source of fascination for popular culture beginning in the 1950s (and hasn't retreated since). Hence, it was during the 1950s that teenaged rebel heroes such as James Dean (the original "Rebel Without a Cause"), Elvis Presley (or at least the way he was portrayed by the media of the time), and Yeung Gor first achieved mass popularity. Jin Yong, being Chinese, might not have felt the influence as directly as creative artists in the West did at the time, but the phenomenon no doubt influenced him to some degree. I would not be surprised if at least some aspect of the Yeung Gor character was taken from James Dean (the good-looking, misunderstood young social rebel with a heart of gold).

    Gwok Jing, too, was to some extent a product of the 1950s: he was the idealized image of what adults believed a good youngster SHOULD be: dutiful, responsible, respectful of his elders, etc. Surely, during the 1950s, there were plenty of young people who were quite happy to conform to the "Gwok Jing/Pat Boone" model of behavior and please their parents and elders, but there were at least as many (if not more) who couldn't resist the lure of the "James Dean/Yeung Gor" cool. To some extent, most youngsters go through a phase like that between the ages of thirteen and eighteen.

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    Senior Member kyss of the sword's Avatar
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    why was guo polu considered useless in martial arts. he was said to take after his father while guo xiang took after her mother. his abilty to learn should be the same as his father, the HYS may have taken him under his wing to raise a proper desendent of peach blossom island. through GJ and HR do not know how to teach well, even their disiples eventually became experts, and with advice from zhuzhili, wu santong and the other experts, not to mention the greats, guo polu should become an expert at least if not a great in the making. he may have died at the final battle with the mongolians but it doesn't mean he was not capable in his skills.
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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyss of the sword View Post
    why was guo polu considered useless in martial arts. he was said to take after his father while guo xiang took after her mother.
    In personality, yes. In martial arts talent, no. Gwok Por Lo was a washout in terms of martial arts ability. Whether this was due to lack of talent or lack of training has never been ascertained.

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    Senior Member sheraldine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Whether this was due to lack of talent or lack of training has never been ascertained.
    my guess would be lack of training. in these 16 years, his parents too busy with the matter of city.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    In personality, yes. In martial arts talent, no. Gwok Por Lo was a washout in terms of martial arts ability. Whether this was due to lack of talent or lack of training has never been ascertained.
    How do we know this for sure? Please substantiate with specific references.

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    Senior Member sixdays's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyss of the sword View Post
    why was guo polu considered useless in martial arts. he was said to take after his father while guo xiang took after her mother. his abilty to learn should be the same as his father, the HYS may have taken him under his wing to raise a proper desendent of peach blossom island. through GJ and HR do not know how to teach well, even their disiples eventually became experts, and with advice from zhuzhili, wu santong and the other experts, not to mention the greats, guo polu should become an expert at least if not a great in the making. he may have died at the final battle with the mongolians but it doesn't mean he was not capable in his skills.
    most likely because he was never a main character.
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