A Take at the Greats Ranking from a non-novel-reader

[hum.tum141]

I have watched LOCH and ROCH on the internet, havent read any novel at all. This is the impression I have about the greats:

Ranking:


- Guo Jing being the most powerful of all, kicked JLFW and other mongolians arse single handidly, while being surrounded by whole army. He has access to a wide variety of arts including two of the most powerful of the time.

- Zhou Bo Tong: He is said to be slightly above other greats. Yang Guo (when he is sad, since he was able to beat JLFW)

- Hong Qigong, HYS, Yideng, OYF

- Yang Guo (Normal, he was about to be killed by JLFW), JLFW ( JLFW was killed by YG. I dont consider him to be on par with other greats, because i dont see YG good enough to kill ZBT or HYS)

on side note I believe JLFW>YG (Normal) YG (Sad)> JLFW

- QQR, Huang Rong (She thrashed LMC easily), XLN ( she was below LMC until she learned L/R technique from ZBT and thrashed JLFW and Mongolians.)


*I dont know how good WCY is. Because in LOCH OYF commented that if ZBT has learned nine Yin then even WCY cant match him. LCY has been mentioned as slightly below WCY.
On the other hand ZBT told JLFW at the end of ROCH if he can even take 10 moves from WCY if he were alive.
Therefore I think WCY to be equal to ZBT.

[batmankiller]

Ummm I agree with your "general" rankings sicne they aren't too specific with the LOCH greats but probably put JLFW below YG due to his lack of instincts instead of equal. YG was on par with JLFW and some could even say he was winning until JLFW endangered GX, forcing YG to be on the defensive. (Hence the losing part for JLFW's actions here).Although I agree that JLFW is above all the greats in internal but he has no techniques or fighter instincts to back it up. The very few times I've seen him injure someone was QQR when JLFW had home-field advantage because it was said he was at a monglian camp.. same with one of HYS's disciple and GJ, who was assisted by YG to sneak attack him. There aren't many fight scenes where JLFW can win out in the open (YG&XLN thrashed him in the resturant) And in general I don't think he's a good fighter so although he has more internal than all of the LOCH greats, I do think all of the LOCH have more than enough experience to defeat him. Yes JLFW is old but remember he said before walkign into JiangHu no one's been able to withstand even 3 of his wheels or has he even had to cough up blood/injured.. doesn't show much experience worth having there.

[PJ]

Hello and welcome.

Perhaps you can find some interesting discussion in this extensive topic: For the nth time, How would you rank the Greats?

It's not easy to rank the Greats, but here are a few things that we do know (either stated or demonstrated):

Pre-16 years:

-Yang Guo with Heavy Iron Sword was said to be at a level similar to Demonic Swordsman Dugu Qiubai with Heavy Iron Sword

-Guo Jing =~ Golden Wheel Monk in the field of martial arts, but Guo Jing was a better fighter

-Hong Qigong and Ouyang Feng were both described to have improved their skills considerably since the end of LOCH

-Qiu Qianren was defeated by Yang Guo's Heavy Iron Sword

-Hong Qigong and Ouyang's internal energy was not less than that of Golden Wheel Monk

-Lin Chaoying was said to be better than the Greats at *some* point.

Post-16 years:

-Golden Wheel Monk's internal energy roughly doubled, his power increased greatly. It was mentioned by Jin Yong twice that he only dared step into the Mainland after 16 years because he had reached a level where he was confident about being able to defeat the combined forces of Pre-16 years Yang Guo and Little Dragon Girl

-The remaining old Greats--Huang, Yideng, and Zhou--were able to match GWM's power for a while, although GWM was superior to Yideng and would have eventually won

-Golden Wheel Monk fatally injured Qiu Qianren after an entire day of combat. However, at the time GWM had NOT reached the 10th level of Dragon Elephant Prajna. When he faced Zhou Botong in chapter 38, he would have been more powerful than when he fought Qiu Qianren.

-Yang Guo at his normal level (non-sad) is still slightly better than GWM

-Yang Guo did not seem to master the wooden sword stage yet, whereas Demonic Swordsman progressed further into "overcoming the sword without a sword"

With that, here is how I would rank them:

1. (Demonic Swordsman Dugu Qiubai)
2. (Huang Shang, creator of "9 Yin"), Guo Jing, Yang Guo
3. Zhou Botong, Golden Wheel Monk
4. Eastern Heretic Huang Yaoshi, Southern Emperor Yideng, (Central Divinity Wang Chong Yang)
5. Qiu Qianren
6. (Lin Chaoying)
7. Hong Qigong, Ouyang Feng

[druid]

Golden Wheel Monk's internal energy roughly doubled, his skills increased greatly

Did the novel actually mention that his skills increased greatly? Like his external techinques such as palm strikes?

[PJ]

Did the novel actually mention that his skills increased greatly? Like his external techinques such as palm strikes?

By skills, I meant his "power." Bad wording, probably.

[shenlong]

I have watched LOCH and ROCH on the internet, havent read any novel at all. This is the impression I have about the greats: (Which series have you watched? The dates would be nice)

Ranking:


- Guo Jing being the most powerful of all, kicked JLFW and other mongolians arse single handidly, while being surrounded by whole army. He has access to a wide variety of arts including two of the most powerful of the time. (This is gonna bring up the GJ v. YG debate again, but yes, he is extremely powerful)

- Zhou Bo Tong: He is said to be slightly above other greats. Yang Guo (when he is sad, since he was able to beat JLFW) (Not so sure about this one, as personally I think YD is the most powerful of the old greats)

- Hong Qigong, HYS, Yideng, OYF

- Yang Guo (Normal, he was about to be killed by JLFW), JLFW ( JLFW was killed by YG. I dont consider him to be on par with other greats, because i dont see YG good enough to kill ZBT or HYS) (THIS is where you need to read the book, because the canon version will show that YG is above the old greats (or so argued))

on side note I believe JLFW>YG (Normal) YG (Sad)> JLFW (Also wrong, if you read the book, it will show that JLFW knew he could not defeat 'normal' YG and resorted to attacking a bound Guo Xiang)

- QQR, Huang Rong (She thrashed LMC easily), XLN ( she was below LMC until she learned L/R technique from ZBT and thrashed JLFW and Mongolians.) (Agreed here, although QQR may be a little above the two.)


*I dont know how good WCY is. Because in LOCH OYF commented that if ZBT has learned nine Yin then even WCY cant match him. LCY has been mentioned as slightly below WCY.
On the other hand ZBT told JLFW at the end of ROCH if he can even take 10 moves from WCY if he were alive.
Therefore I think WCY to be equal to ZBT.
(WCY is stronger than ZBT, also, the 9 Yin is a HUGE IF, therefore WCY is stronger by a lot)

*My edits in bold

[hum.tum141]

Hello and welcome.

Perhaps you can find some interesting discussion in this extensive topic: For the nth time, How would you rank the Greats?

It's not easy to rank the Greats, but here are a few things that we do know (either stated or demonstrated):

Pre-16 years:

-Yang Guo with Heavy Iron Sword was said to be at a level similar to Demonic Swordsman Dugu Qiubai with Heavy Iron Sword

-Guo Jing =~ Golden Wheel Monk in the field of martial arts, but Guo Jing was a better fighter

-Hong Qigong and Ouyang Feng were both described to have improved their skills considerably since the end of LOCH

-Qiu Qianren was defeated by Yang Guo's Heavy Iron Sword

-Hong Qigong and Ouyang's internal energy was not less than that of Golden Wheel Monk

-Lin Chaoying was said to be better than the Greats at *some* point.

Post-16 years:

-Golden Wheel Monk's internal energy roughly doubled, his power increased greatly. It was mentioned by Jin Yong twice that he only dared step into the Mainland after 16 years because he had reached a level where he was confident about being able to defeat the combined forces of Pre-16 years Yang Guo and Little Dragon Girl

-The remaining old Greats--Huang, Yideng, and Zhou--were able to match GWM's power for a while, although GWM was superior to Yideng and would have eventually won

-Golden Wheel Monk fatally injured Qiu Qianren after an entire day of combat. However, at the time GWM had NOT reached the 10th level of Dragon Elephant Prajna. When he faced Zhou Botong in chapter 38, he would have been more powerful than when he fought Qiu Qianren.

-Yang Guo at his normal level (non-sad) is still slightly better than GWM

-Yang Guo did not seem to master the wooden sword stage yet, whereas Demonic Swordsman progressed further into "overcoming the sword without a sword"

With that, here is how I would rank them:

1. (Demonic Swordsman Dugu Qiubai)
2. (Huang Shang, creator of "9 Yin"), Guo Jing, Yang Guo
3. Zhou Botong, Golden Wheel Monk
4. Eastern Heretic Huang Yaoshi, Southern Emperor Yideng, (Central Divinity Wang Chong Yang)
5. Qiu Qianren
6. (Lin Chaoying)
7. Hong Qigong, Ouyang Feng

Its hard to swallow (atleast for me) that QQR is better then Hong Qigong and OYF, after watching how pitiful he was at the hands of ZBT, at the end of LOCH2003:

http://www.crunchyroll.com/showmedia?id=58833

same for Lin Chaoying, with OYF and H7G's access to 9 yin, i think they would have surpassed her.

I believe JLFW to be below 4 greats, because i dont think YG is powerfull enough to injure or kill HYS, ZBT or Yideng.

*Obviously I cannot argue (and i may be wrong) as i know only what i have seen on telly or how/what director has intended to put the story to the viewers.

[hum.tum141]

*My edits in bold

-LOCH 2003 and ROCH 2006
-pardon my ignorance but what is cannon version? tv series or book edition??
-If JLFW could not defeat normal yg but he still was dominant.
-the huge IF of 9 yin got certain later when ZBT learned 9yin.
-4 greats are meant to be equal, i dont see why yideng is better then HYS.

[shenlong]

I believe JLFW to be below 4 greats, because i dont think YG is powerfull enough to injure or kill HYS, ZBT or Yideng.

That is a huge contridiction there, but the television series do seem to put Yang Guo down a little in the final fight scene against JLFW.

As or QQR above H7G and OYF I really don't see that happening, as H7G commented on Mount Huang at the time he and JLFW would probably be equals, and after that time QQR was FATALLY injured by JLFW. If H7G or OYF did not train and then fought JLFW all those years later, I doubt they would be killed.

-LOCH 2003 and ROCH 2006
-pardon my ignorance but what is cannon version? tv series or book edition??
-If JLFW could not defeat normal yg but he still was dominant.
-the huge IF of 9 yin got certain later when ZBT learned 9yin.
-4 greats are meant to be equal, i dont see why yideng is better then HYS.

Canon is the book version, as all the series are based off of it.

I'm not sure, but are you saying JLFW was dominate? or Yang Guo? JLFW was NOT dominate in the fight as he would repeated attack Guo Xiang to take YG's attention away from the fight, if JLFW did NOT attack GX he would have lost to a normal (maybe even slightly happy) Yang Guo. (In the 2006 version I believe that YG needed to dodge many of JLFWs attacks and he was cut by his wheels, so I would understand why you would think JLFW was stronger as Yang Guo only really 'won' when he blasted the cannonballs back.)

ZBT is stronger than all of the greats, but he could not defeat YG without a long fight. YG is said to be stronger than the greats. WCY is also said to be stronger than the greats. So it is still a toss up, but as ZBT gets younger as he ages, he would have an advantage of youth over WCY if they fought in their latter years.

The four greats are ABOUT equal, but not completely. YiDeng is said to be stronger than the others because of his ability to heal when all the other greats that were alive couldn't.

[hum.tum141]

That is a huge contridiction there, but the television series do seem to put Yang Guo down a little in the final fight scene against JLFW.

What is the contradiction?

[shenlong]

What is the contradiction?

If JLFW is below the greats and YG is above the greats, how can YG be beneath JLFW?

[hum.tum141]

If JLFW is below the greats and YG is above the greats, how can YG be beneath JLFW?

i did not say yg is below greats (when he is sad). all i am saying is if jlfw is above 4 greats and get killed by yg, then yg can easily take down any of the 4 greats as they would be easier opponents then jlfw. i hope you get what i am trying to say.

[shenlong]

I believe JLFW to be below 4 greats, because i dont think YG is powerfull enough to injure or kill HYS, ZBT or Yideng.

and now you saying:

i did not say yg is below greats (when he is sad). all i am saying is if jlfw is above 4 greats and get killed by yg, then yg can easily take down any of the 4 greats as they would be easier opponents then jlfw. i hope you get what i am trying to say.

Hopefull you can see WHY I'm confused, maybe if you explain it a bit more? Sorry, I'm really not getting this right now.

[hum.tum141]

and now you saying:



Hopefull you can see WHY I'm confused, maybe if you explain it a bit more? Sorry, I'm really not getting this right now.

ok let me put it this way.

do you think yg can kill HYS?

according to your understanding,if yg can kill jlfw then he can kill hys too (and rather easily), since you belive hys to be less powerful then jlfw.

i cant imagine yg killing hys.
thats what i was trying to say.

[shenlong]

ok let me put it this way.

do you think yg can kill HYS?

according to your understanding,if yg can kill jlfw then he can kill hys too (and rather easily), since you belive hys to be less powerful then jlfw.

i cant imagine yg killing hys.
thats what i was trying to say.

Got it, do I think YG can kill HYS... Yes I do.

The greats were portrayed as untouchable and extremely powerful whereas YG and GJ fought like commoners but won constantly, so I can see why you would think this.

[Ken Cheng]

Got it, do I think YG can kill HYS... Yes I do.

I don't. Although the Golden Wheel Monk was arguably as powerful or perhaps even more powerful than the individual Greats at the end of ROCH, he was also, in some ways, the most "beatable." We often jokingly talk about the Golden Wheel Monk being a terrible choker, but it's true: he is far more prone to mental mistakes that cost him victories that otherwise could be his. Yeung Gor might or might not have been more powerful than the Golden Wheel Monk by the end of ROCH, but one thing that's also fairly clear is that the Golden Wheel Monk was at least partially responsible for his own demise at Yeung Gor's hand (let his guard down WAY too soon).

East Heretic Wong Yerk See was far less prone to such mental mistakes, and while I'm not sure that's enough for East Heretic to secure a win against Yeung Gor, it should be enough to keep the Lord of Peach Blossom Island alive.

[shenlong]

I don't. Although the Golden Wheel Monk was arguably as powerful or perhaps even more powerful than the individual Greats at the end of ROCH, he was also, in some ways, the most "beatable." We often jokingly talk about the Golden Wheel Monk being a terrible choker, but it's true: he is far more prone to mental mistakes that cost him victories that otherwise could be his. Yeung Gor might or might not have been more powerful than the Golden Wheel Monk by the end of ROCH, but one thing that's also fairly clear is that the Golden Wheel Monk was at least partially responsible for his own demise at Yeung Gor's hand (let his guard down WAY too soon).

East Heretic Wong Yerk See was far less prone to such mental mistakes, and while I'm not sure that's enough for East Heretic to secure a win against Yeung Gor, it should be enough to keep the Lord of Peach Blossom Island alive.

Yeah I should edit that to "beat the greats". It is very hard to KILL a great as its been shown that just defending from attacks (even if you only have one arm) is infinitely easier to attacking and killing another. Yang Guo may not be able to kill the greats, but defeating them shouldn't be a huge problem.

[Ken Cheng]

Yang Guo may not be able to kill the greats, but defeating them shouldn't be a huge problem.

It'll be a huge struggle, but by the end of ROCH, Gwok Jing, Yeung Gor, and Chow Bak Tung are the three with the best chance of pulling it off.

Hmmm...that's already three of the five Greats, isn't it? Looks like East Heretic and South Monk lose out.

[PJ]

As or QQR above H7G and OYF I really don't see that happening, as H7G commented on Mount Huang at the time he and JLFW would probably be equals, and after that time QQR was FATALLY injured by JLFW.

It was after 16 years when Qiu Qianren got fatally injured by Golden Wheel Monk, who had nearly doubled his power. So, let's just say that Post-16 years Qiu Qianren was good enough to take on someone with twice as much internal energy as Hong Qigong for 24 hours.

16 years ago, it was confirmed that Qiu Qianren was roughly on the same level as Reverend Yideng.

If H7G or OYF did not train and then fought JLFW all those years later, I doubt they would be killed.

On the contrary, I think the 2 deceased Greats would be crushed by double-strengthed Golden Wheel Monk rather quickly.

[freakonboard]

Here's my thought.


[internal power]+[external technics, fighting decision, mental stability, etc.]

Pre 16 years
Jinlun 1+0.4 = 1.4
Greats 1+1 = 2

Post 16 years
Jinlun 2+0.5 = 2.5
Greats 1.2+1.2 = 2.4