What was Kau Cheen Yan's problem fighting Gwok Jing during LOCH?

[Ken Cheng]

It's been said that during LOCH, Iron Palm Union Chief Kau Cheen Yan's martial arts were just a hair below the Greats'. He could reasonably be invited to the Second Mt. Hua Sword Tournament and, although his chances of winning against the four Greats or Chow Bak Tung were slim, he would nevertheless be competitive...maybe even edging one of them out on his best day. In other words, he was quite nearly a Great himself...at least 90% of their level according to some observers.

But whenever Kau Cheen Yan fought Gwok Jing in the second half of LOCH, it was never as easy for the Iron Palm Union Chief as it was for the Greats. Even late in LOCH, the Greats could defeat Gwok Jing without too much trouble, but Kau Cheen Yan always seemed to need to put a great deal of effort into it.

Why was this? Did Gwok Jing present some special problems for Kau Cheen Yan in martial arts matchups?

Kau Cheen Yan had similar problems with Ying Goo, but that one's easily explainable: he was afraid of her and he was somewhat hampered by his guilty conscience for killing her son. Kau Cheen Yan should not have had similar hangups fighting Gwok Jing, however.

[shenlong]

The only thing I can come up with is Guo Jing's palm technique. All of the greats have seen and matched agains the XL18Z, whereas QQR had not, and is not as fimilar with it. But even then, it shouldn't be that big of a problem...

[kyss of the sword]

guo jing by that time had learnt most of 9yinzhenjing's fighting techniques and had improved his inner power alot. and he had the benefit of sparing with ZBT and learning his advanced techniques as well. guo jing should be about 40% of the greats level by then. guo jing could take around a hundred moves with the greats by the time he encountered QQR at the beggers clan meet, they did not actually match moves then, just their ability in transferring power. at iron palm peak, they only exchanged two moves, QQR had hit huang rong earlier and his hands were wounded by the porcupine armour, and he still won the first exchange. when QQR stopped after the second palm exchange to examine his hands incase the armour had poisons, guo jing and huang rong escaped. they would have been killed if the had stopped to fight. guo jing had learnt the essence of 9yinzhenjing and had rev yideng's advice on martial arts by the time they fought on the boat, and HR was helping him. one on one, they would have been killed. both guo jing and huang rong had improved greatly, enough to save their lives in a fight with the greats, by that time, the other greats would not find it so easy to kill either huang rong or guo jing.

[Extremer88]

The only thing I can come up with is Guo Jing's palm technique. All of the greats have seen and matched agains the XL18Z, whereas QQR had not, and is not as fimilar with it. But even then, it shouldn't be that big of a problem...

Iron Palms seems very much inferior to the great XL18Z, it seems to be this way whenever QQR uses his Iron Palms.

[CFT]

Have a look at the LoCH thread over in Translations. The most recent chapter posting states that in terms of raw power output Iron Palms is inferior, but in terms of variations it is superior.

[Extremer88]

Have a look at the LoCH thread over in Translations. The most recent chapter posting states that in terms of raw power output Iron Palms is inferior, but in terms of variations it is superior.

I would say QQR was incapable of unleasing the potential of the Iron Palms or wieding it to it max. Would have been different if the Iron Palms was in the hands of martial artist that are more talented.

[ChronoReverse]

Not really, it was said that QQR was very talented and surpassed most of the previous clan leaders.

After all, you don't reach near-Great status that easily =)

[PJ]

It's the antagonistic bias of Jin Yong universe. Golden Wheel Monk, Murong Fu, Jiumozhi, Qiu Qianren, and even Dongfang Bubai are all victims of this hero-favoring syndrome in one way or another, some more severely infected than others.

A villain is introduced as very powerful, but must underperform in front of the hero.

[ChronoReverse]

DFBB didn't underwhelm at all. If anything he overperformed because I sure didn't think he'd be able to _completely_ overpower three of the strongest fighters in the book.

[PJ]

But he got taken out in the most pathetic fashion. Contrast to Yang Guo suffering a similar episode of "getting injured while trying to save someone." Because Yang Guo is the hero, he gets to turn the tide around and show off his greatest moment. Since DFBB is the villain, he gets wacked.

[hum.tum141]

It's the antagonistic bias of Jin Yong universe. Golden Wheel Monk, Murong Fu, Jiumozhi, Qiu Qianren, and even Dongfang Bubai are all victims of this hero-favoring syndrome in one way or another, some more severely infected than others.

A villain is introduced as very powerful, but must underperform in front of the hero.

especially murong fu!!

[kyss of the sword]

.

Initially when he was fighting Guo Jing, Qiu Qianren had gradually gained an upper hand; but now Huang Rong came to Guo Jing’s rescue with her Dog Beating Stick technique, he was alone against two enemies. A dozen or so stances later he was forced to move back around the boat defending himself. His back was facing the water so that Huang Rong could not attack him from behind.

Guo Jing launched several fierce attacks successively, but Qiu Qianren’s feet were as if nailed to the deck, he could not be pushed further even for half an inch. By now he was so close to the edge that one more step backward would make him fall into the river

guo jing and huang rong together could only draw with QQR. they only had the advantage when attacking from front and back.

On the other front Guo Jing fought Qiu Qianren; for a while it would be difficult to decide victory and defeat. After receiving instructions from Reverend Yideng on the internal energy cultivation his level of energy actually increased one layer; to his own surprise by exerting all his strength he was able to protect himself thus far. On the other hand Qiu Qianren was baffled by Ying Gu’s action; first she acted as his enemy and did not care to help either side, suddenly now she came to lend him a hand. Inwardly he was delighted, his spirit rose and his palms became fiercer. He believed with a prolonged fight he would eventually subdue Guo Jing.

guo jing's inner power has increased several notches since his time on peach blossom island. that's the reason for his holding on. but he still could not gain victory on his own yet.

[ChronoReverse]

That's not the point. No will dispute that GJ will lose to QQR in a fair fight (most likely).

However, there are a number of niggling factors. For instance, GJ and QQR clash palms directly. That is, QQR sent out both palms and GJ received them with two of his own. They clashed, both gave a great shout and both took steps back... too bad GJ tripped over a rope while doing so.



H7G, later on in the story, bowled GJ over with a single palm when he actually decide to go all out (or risk losing). HYS was able to quickly send GJ spinning when he needed to end it.

In both these clutch situations, HYS and H7G stepped it up. QQR seems to lack this ability.

[tape]

Yeah, and this was even later in the story so he advanced even more no doubt. QQR doesn't seem 95% of the greats, he barely seems 80%.

[shenlong]

Have a look at the LoCH thread over in Translations. The most recent chapter posting states that in terms of raw power output Iron Palms is inferior, but in terms of variations it is superior.

That sways it even more towards Guo Jing, the XL18Z is simple and pure Yang, which is a great ADVANTAGE against variations.

[ChronoReverse]

That didn't stop HYS's inferior-to-even-Iron-Palms-in-terms-of-force palms from whirling GJ about did it?

No QQR simply choked.



Incidentally, the fact that GWM took an entire day (not half a day) to beat QQR is even more sad when I realized that QQR was far older and would have used up his vigor very quickly. All that about GWM being ultra-forceful did jack against QQR until QQR grew tired.

And here GJ sure came out better-looking also using force.

[Candide]

It's the antagonistic bias of Jin Yong universe. Golden Wheel Monk, Murong Fu, Jiumozhi, Qiu Qianren, and even Dongfang Bubai are all victims of this hero-favoring syndrome in one way or another, some more severely infected than others.

A villain is introduced as very powerful, but must underperform in front of the hero.

Ouyang Feng toyed with Guo Jing for most of the novels. There goes your conspiracy theory.

I think QQR struggled a bit with Guo Jing because GJ was unknown to him and had very good techniques which really surprised him. The first time they fought, Guo Jing used the Northern Star Formation and 9 Yin techniques to skilfully match his blows without using equal power, which confused him as to how good this young man really was. The second time they fought, it was a direct palm clash after QQR was injured by HR's vest. The third time was when QQR only wanted to run away and escape the sinking boat, but in the brief period when he wasn't thinking of that, he quickly overwhelmed GJ. The fourth and last time, he had OYF and ZBT to worry about.

OTOH, the Greats had always known GJ as "that dumb kid" and observed his progress in large parts so GJ didn't have the advantage of the unknown factor.

[PJ]

Ouyang Feng toyed with Guo Jing for most of the novels. There goes your conspiracy theory.

Ouyang Feng is an exception.

[ChronoReverse]

The third time was when QQR only wanted to run away and escape the sinking boat, but in the brief period when he wasn't thinking of that, he quickly overwhelmed GJ.

He did not. At first GJ and HR was fighting him, then for a bit GJ fought him alone and held on. It culminated with QQR sending a heavy strike which GJ not only managed to take, but caused QQR to have to step back as well.

Unfortunately GJ tripped over a rope at the moment and was in the worse position. At this point QQR was gladdened by such a fortuitous turn of events and want to take the opportunity to get rid of GJ.

Sure wasn't a glorious moment for QQR.

[Candide]

I reread that part and Chrono, you're right. QQR did rather poorly there.

Ouyang Feng is an exception.

You may want to add these people to your exception list: Zhang Zhaozhong (Book n Sword) - who dominated Chen Jialuo until the last fight when Chen got too skilful for him, the horny priest (Sword Stained) who did his best against YCZ, all top baddies in HSDS (they kinda overperformed in fact against ZWJ), the Blood Sabre monk (Liancheng Jue), Hong Antong and the two ex-comrades of WXB's sifu Chen Jinnan (The Deer and the Cauldron), DFBB - I disagree with your assessment of his ending, Ren Wo Xing (who knocked out our hero with a roar in their only fight).