Xiao Feng, Linghu Chong, and their (mutually exclusive) kung fu level

[PJ]

A few thoughts for discussion.

First up, Linghu Chong.
It seems that his internal energy was still below that of Zuo Lengchan at the end of novel. He was able to slaughter Zuo with better technique, but his hand trembled when he clashed swords with Zuo, and after a while Zuo's strong force made Linghu Chong's weapon fly out of his hand. This implies that Linghu Chong couldn't match Zuo Lengchan in the field of internal energy.

Xiao Feng.
By age 30, he had reached Great-level. Starting age 7, he was taught Shaolin martial arts by Reverend Xuanku, one of Shaolin's best. At age 16, he became student of Beggar's Union chief Wang Jiantong. Given these information, one may presume that teenage Qiao Feng was already a powerhouse. However, there is some evidence suggesting this was the case at all. In fact, evidence hints that Qiao Feng at age 16 may have been BELOW the level of 16 year old Yang Guo (who was weaker than Huodu).

The evidence is that when Qiao Feng was around 16 (but not before then, since the novel said he didn't meet Chief Wang until age 16), he learned martial arts from Elder Xi of Beggar's Union. The exact description from the text is 提到昔年自己指点他武功. ...When it was brought up that I [Elder Xi] provided martial arts instruction to him [Qiao Feng] years ago... This implies that Elder Xi would have been more competent in martial arts than 16 year old Qiao Feng. And yet, some 12+ years later, Elder Xi was barely a match for Evil #4 Yun Zhonghe. For all we know, Yun Zhonghe is at best 10% of present-day Xiao Feng's level. So from age 16 to 31, when Xiao Feng doubled his age, he would have increased his kung fu mastery by about 10 fold.

Based on this information, I don't think 16 year old Qiao Feng (below Elder Xi's level) could launch a deadly LDA to kill a second class fighter like 15 year old Murong Bo demonstrated. So, 16 year old Murong Bo should > 16 year old Qiao Feng. And yet, 60 year old Murong Bo = 30 year old Qiao Feng. If my assertions are correct, it would mean that Qiao Feng's rate of improvement is actually frighteningly fast, which helps explain why he noticed an improvement within half a year of NOT touching his training at all.

[CC]

Another point to ponder. When did XF join beggar sect? IIRC, it was not specified if he had any contact with Xuan Ku again after he joined Beggar Sect (presumably in his teens).

But in 3rd edition, he apparently mastered one of the 72 Arts! Does this mean he could master the Demon Subduing Palm before he turned 16? That would mean he was ahead of the 28-29 year old Murong Fu when he was 16. And Murong Fu is vastly better than 3rd Evil who was also better than 4th Evil who was about Elder Xi level.

Go figure.

[Extremer88]

And yet, 60 If my assertions are correct, it would mean that Qiao Feng's rate of improvement is actually frighteningly fast, which helps explain why he noticed an improvement within half a year of NOT touching his training at all.

I'm not surprise by Qiao Feng's superb rate of improvement. He was a martial arts talent and genius. What about Xuzhu then? Couldn't we also say that Xuzhu's rate improvement is fighteningly fast, since he gone from a normal monk to a one-of-the-most-powerful fighters of DGSD (entire JY universe) in just a few months?

And Xiao Feng 16 years old, below Yang Guo 16 years? Really hard to believe.

[shenlong]

1st point, I don't see too much to say there, I always did not think LHC had that great of an internal energy compared to others his level.

2nd point, I don't doubt that can happen. A lot of others have made remarkable improvements, although usually there is a great master guiding them or they discovered a new powerful technique.

On that point, I don't think comparing XZ to QF is fair as he kind of grew steadily slow until he hit that point and skyrocketed.

[PJ]

1st point, I don't see too much to say there, I always did not think LHC had that great of an internal energy compared to others his level.

Well, some people think that Linghu Chong had a lot of internal energy due to him learning Yijinjing, which was a valid assumption, but the example here shows that he probably didn't have as much internal as Zuo Lengchan.

[PJ]

Another point to ponder. When did XF join beggar sect? IIRC, it was not specified if he had any contact with Xuan Ku again after he joined Beggar Sect (presumably in his teens).

But in 3rd edition, he apparently mastered one of the 72 Arts! Does this mean he could master the Demon Subduing Palm before he turned 16? That would mean he was ahead of the 28-29 year old Murong Fu when he was 16. And Murong Fu is vastly better than 3rd Evil who was also better than 4th Evil who was about Elder Xi level.

Go figure.

He was taught by Reverend Xuanku from age 7 to age 16. At age 16, he met Chief Wang and became his disciple, so it seems that he joined the Beggar's Union around age 16. In chapter 42, he said “少林寺玄苦大师亲授孩儿武功，十年中寒暑不间……” So Xuanku did not teach him any more after Qiao Feng reached age 16. Unless Qiao Feng were to master the Shaolin supreme art on his own after age 16, it seems that he would have to be indeed a master of it by age 16 under the instruction of Reverend Xuanku. But if Qiao Feng already knew one of the 72 arts, he definitely would not need instruction from Elder Xi.

Perhaps Qiao Feng didn't quite master the supreme art yet by age 16; let's say he was taught the jest of it, but he didn't perfect it until later.

[shenlong]

Well, some people think that Linghu Chong had a lot of internal energy due to him learning Yijinjing, which was a valid assumption, but the example here shows that he probably didn't have as much internal as Zuo Lengchan.

I always thought YGG was great because of DGSD which I read before SPW, so I can see where this is coming from. However, I believe that there is evidence that LHC was not a internal energy martial artist, but wins with superior techniques. So, yeah, agreed.

[CC]

Perhaps Qiao Feng didn't quite master the supreme art yet by age 16; let's say he was taught the jest of it, but he didn't perfect it until later.

I think its all a JY brain fart again.

The idea that he was taught the formula and left to learn it all by himself goes against:

i. The words of JY stating 'once taught, instantly mastered.'

ii. Someone like XK would risk his young student fire deviating if left to master something complex like the 72 arts by himself (if he was really below pre-DGSD Elder Xi at that point). Note that if he was below pre-DGSD Elder Xi, he would be below DGSD 4th Evil. Who would be below 3rd Evil, who is significantly below MRF. And MRF doesn't even have the internal to learn any of the 72 arts! So that would mean that XK let young QF have the formula before he had anywhere remotely near the base internal to master Demon Subduing Palm.

JY BRAIN FART!

[PJ]

Well, it would have been a pleasure to prove that 16 year old Qiao Feng was only about as good as 16 year old Guo Jing. At age 30, Qiao Feng is better than Guo Jing, AND Qiao Feng had less lucky encounters. If this can be proven, then it would add even more awesomeness to the character.

[CC]

Well, it would have been a pleasure to prove that 16 year old Qiao Feng was only about as good as 16 year old Guo Jing. At age 30, Qiao Feng is better than Guo Jing, AND Qiao Feng had less lucky encounters. If this can be proven, then it would add even more awesomeness to the character.

Then we'll have to stick with the 2nd Edition QF I suppose.

The 2nd Ed makes more sense in this respect. XK teaches him only the basic Shaolin Cultivation without the advanced 72 Arts and passes him on to Beggar Sect for the external skills.

As for the Qin Long Gong, I have no idea where it came from!

[Ren Ying Ying]

Well, some people think that Linghu Chong had a lot of internal energy due to him learning Yijinjing, which was a valid assumption, but the example here shows that he probably didn't have as much internal as Zuo Lengchan.

he didn't learn YJJ until afterwards, didn't he?

[PJ]

he didn't learn YJJ until afterwards, didn't he?

By the time he killed Zuo Lengchan (which is the incident detailed in my first post), this was towards the end of novel, in chapter 38 (or so). He'd learned Yijinjing long time ago.

[Ace High]

By the time he killed Zuo Lengchan (which is the incident detailed in my first post), this was towards the end of novel, in chapter 38 (or so). He'd learned Yijinjing long time ago.

LHC only learned YJJ in the final chapter, when Fangsheng led Shaolin members to Heng-shan, as preparation to RWX's emminent attack. FS told LHC that FQY saw fainted due to his XXDF backlashed at him, and make Peach Fairies to deliver Huashan's internal energy manual to LHC.

[bliss]

By the time he killed Zuo Lengchan (which is the incident detailed in my first post), this was towards the end of novel, in chapter 38 (or so). He'd learned Yijinjing long time ago.

Are you confusing this with the time Yingying delivered him to Shaolin? He never learned Yijinjing because Fang Zheng wanted him to become his disciple in order for him to pass on Yijinjing. Linghu Chong naturally refused.

It wasn't until the end that Fang Zheng insisted on teaching Linghu Chong Yijinjing in order to help him alleviate the Fire Deviation of Xixing Dafa. He had to make up a lie that Feng Qingyang had passed on internal energy methods to the Six Fairies to pass on to him, which he then told to Linghu Chong. Of course, Yingying saw through this as she deduced that Feng Qingyang wouldn't depend on the Six Fairies to deliver something as important as internal energy methods. She figured it was Fang Zheng all along telling him the internal method for Yijinjing.

[bliss]

In fact, this almost alludes to an opposite point that I had been an advocate of for some time. We actually NEVER see Linghu Chong at peak capacity because he never learns Yijinjing until the very end of the novel when all the loose ends have already been tied up. Linghu Chong is actually at his martial arts peaks well after the novel is over because that is the only time he'd have command of Dugu 9 Jian, Xixing Dafa, and Yijinjing all at once.

[Ren Wo Xing]

PJ, bliss and co are correct. Although Fang Zhen OFFERED to teach him YJJ when RYY brought him to Shaolin, he refused to learn it, as he did not want to leave Huashan (becoming a Shaolin disciple was a prerequisite), even if Huashan sect, as he found out, had expelled him.

He did not learn YJJ until chapter 40.

[Wellesley]

My guess would be that 16 year old Xiao Feng could use the Shaolin Supreme Art the same way Guo Jing could use Dragon Palms when he was first able to use all of the 18 moves, but it was after many more years when his internal power grew that he really mastered it.

After Guo Jing could execute the Dragon Palms with minor power behind it, he no longer needed to be directly taught by HQG to improve by himself.

[Ren Wo Xing]

With regards to Xiao Feng, please keep in mind that Beggar Clan martial arts and Shaolin martial arts are mutually exclusive. It's very, very possible that 16 year old Xiao Feng was, in terms of overall martial arts, already ahead of Elder Xi (in fact, I would say it's pretty likely), but as a new member of Beggars Clan, with no experience in Beggars Clan martial arts whatsoever, was under Elder Xi's instruction and tutelage nonetheless.

[PJ]

With regards to Linghu Chong's time line, it is my mistake. Sorry about that.

With regards to young Qiao Feng, maybe Ren Wo Xing is correct. It's possible that Pre-DGSD Elder Xi taught Qiao Feng martial arts of the Beggar's Union. But then again, Elder Xi didn't know any advanced martial arts (like XL18Z and Dog-Beating Stick), so he would have only been able to teach some second-rate stuff. If Qiao Feng already mastered one of the 72 arts by then, I really don't see why he would need Elder Xi's martial arts.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Well, everyone at an 'entry level position' needs to start off by learning the entry level abilities of an organization, I would assume. He didn't 'need' Elder Xi's martial arts, but as a new disciple of the Beggar Clan, it was probably protocol for him to learn the martial arts anyways. He can't come in and immediately expect to learn XL28Z (much less DBS), right? Especially as a person being groomed as the future clan leader of the Beggar Clan, he would have to have at least some degree of proficiency in all of the martial arts of HIS sect.