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Does Jin Yong misrepresent Han Chinese as cowardly, weak people in his novels?
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Thread: Does Jin Yong misrepresent Han Chinese as cowardly, weak people in his novels?

  1. #1
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default Does Jin Yong misrepresent Han Chinese as cowardly, weak people in his novels?

    The Han Chinese wuxia heroes of Jin Yong's novels are typically brave, strong men of integrity: Gwok Jing, Yeung Gor, Cheung Mo Gei, Ling Wu Chung, etc., naturally all fit this mold. These men, however, represent Chinese "superheroes;" none of them was an ordinary man. Each was extraordinary.

    What Jin Yong seemingly has to say about the "average" Chinese man in his novels, however, doesn't seem flattering. Doesn't he tend to portray average Chinese men as selfish, cowardly, and weak...forever being victimized by stronger foreigners such as the Khitan, the Tangut, the Juchen, and the Mongols? Aside from the "supermen" wuxia heroes, the average Chinese man isn't depicted in a very flattering light in Jin Yong's stories.

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    Senior Member Son of Light's Avatar
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    Yes, he does misrepresent Han people greatly.
    Zhu YuanZhang was one person he totally misrepresented.
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    Senior Member mawguy's Avatar
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    it's all about context. you need conflict & troubling times to show-off the "superhuman" qualities of heroes, but said times also occur when the han chinese as a population was at its weakest -- successfully invaded and oppressed by foreign rule (or at least having their borders threatened). naturally, the han populace seems weak, the government useless & often corrupt, etc.

    even in times of relative peace and prosperity, the average han chinese was oppressed by the reigning emperor/dynasty. that's just how life was for most chinese in history. doesn't mean they didn't do anything of worth, though. it's situational rather than moral weakness, i would hope -- the culture could not have survived as long as it has if people simply gave-up or assimilated the culture of the foreign overlords (in fact, the overlords tended to become more sinicized with each successor).
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    I think Jin Yong believes everybody has the potential for evil and cowardliness.

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    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    I'm more impressed that JY is willing, despite his clear Han Chinese bias, to often portray the Chinese people in such light.

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    Senior Member Son of Light's Avatar
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    Not true, JY is more Bias towards the Manchurians.
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    Senior Member Guo Xiang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Son of Light View Post
    Not true, JY is more Bias towards the Manchurians.
    Any proof to back your statement?
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    Senior Member Son of Light's Avatar
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    Lu Ding Ji.
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    Senior Member yittz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    The Han Chinese wuxia heroes of Jin Yong's novels are typically brave, strong men of integrity: Gwok Jing, Yeung Gor, Cheung Mo Gei, Ling Wu Chung, etc., naturally all fit this mold. These men, however, represent Chinese "superheroes;" none of them was an ordinary man. Each was extraordinary.

    What Jin Yong seemingly has to say about the "average" Chinese man in his novels, however, doesn't seem flattering. Doesn't he tend to portray average Chinese men as selfish, cowardly, and weak...forever being victimized by stronger foreigners such as the Khitan, the Tangut, the Juchen, and the Mongols? Aside from the "supermen" wuxia heroes, the average Chinese man isn't depicted in a very flattering light in Jin Yong's stories.
    Is that not true in history though? How else can you explain how a kingdom much bigger, populace and richer lose out to these northern 'bandits'? Well maybe not an average Chinese man, but the officials that lead the land, they tend to be selfish and cowardly, selling their country and their countryman to the enemy at those times of crisis. The average Han was probably starving, and ill equiped to fight back against well organised and equiped soldiers.
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    Senior Member kyss of the sword's Avatar
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    jin yong never showed characteristics through race before. he showed people of different characters in different races. when ever jin yong wrote about the average man, it did not matter if he was han chinese or mongolian or other. he wrote about the average man as average.
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    Don't mean to go on a tangent here, but I think his intention may have been to put people in the mindset that "these people are really vicious" which sort of makes you want to sympathize with the situation and root more for the protagonist(s).

    Then again, maybe Jin Y ong intended for the average man to be just that. . .average with their own flaws, because after all no one person comes with a clean slate. . .

    I don't know. . .
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    Registered User JamesG's Avatar
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    It was the many 'foreign' invaders that made today's China. Much of her present territory is because of them.

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    Senior Member Son of Light's Avatar
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    Not true, Han and Tang had rather big territory.
    The current China's territory has nothing to do with the foregin invaders.
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    Senior Member sarakoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Son of Light View Post
    Not true, Han and Tang had rather big territory.
    The current China's territory has nothing to do with the foregin invaders.
    Umm, it sort of does.

    It was the Manchu that unified Inner Mongolia, Manchuria, Tibet, and the Chinese heartland.

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    Senior Member Son of Light's Avatar
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    The so called Manchuria was part of Ming territory, it was just given to the Munchurians when they first arrive to China to stay because little Han stay there.
    Tibet was a vassal of Ming as well.
    Last edited by Son of Light; 08-01-07 at 11:16 PM.
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    Registered User JamesG's Avatar
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    The Qing [Manchu] Dynasty



    The Ming Dynasty



    I rest my case.

  17. #17
    Senior Member Son of Light's Avatar
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    Peking was not called DaDu during the Ming.
    That map of Ming failed to take in the places under indirect control of Ming into consideration, and is therefore wrong and errorous. Since your case is base on incomplete infomation, it falls.
    Ming and many vassal states under it's command, Qing has none.
    The influence of Ming spread all over into SE Asia, Qing is only limited to what is shown on the map.
    And the question of vassal states should be consider part of one's territory, it should.
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    Registered User JamesG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Son of Light View Post
    Peking was not called DaDu during the Ming.
    That map of Ming failed to take in the places under indirect control of Ming into consideration, and is therefore wrong and errorous. Since your case is base on incomplete infomation, it falls.
    Ming and many vassal states under it's command, Qing has none.
    The influence of Ming spread all over into SE Asia, Qing is only limited to what is shown on the map.
    And the question of vassal states should be consider part of one's territory, it should.
    DaDu is definitely an error on that map since it is a Mongol name for that city. The fact remains that the Yuan and Manchu Dynasties, both foreign rulers, directly controlled a larger area than the Ming Dynasty did. The vassal states don't count since they remained autonomous and merely paid tribute to China. The Ming were more interested in guarding the northern borders and building lavish buildings in Beijing.


    "Historians have given as one of the reasons the great expense of large-scale expeditions at a time of preoccupation with northern defenses against the Mongols. Opposition at court also may have been a contributing factor, as conservative officials found the concept of expansion and commercial ventures alien to Chinese ideas of government. Pressure from the powerful Neo-Confucian bureaucracy led to a revival of strict agrarian-centered society. The stability of the Ming dynasty, which was without major disruptions of the population (then around 100 million), economy, arts, society, or politics, promoted a belief among the Chinese that they had achieved the most satisfactory civilization on earth and that nothing foreign was needed or welcome."
    Credit:
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  19. #19
    Senior Member Son of Light's Avatar
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    China was the last land to fall to Mongol when it invade everyone.
    The fact is, what Mongol controlled and Ming did not, was due to the fact that it was beyond useful land.
    The vassal states are indications of a nations' power and influence, it is every bit as good as territory.
    The fact is, most of the people in the land under Mongol and Manchu hated them.
    While most of the vassal states loved and even worship Ming.
    Ming was more interested in buiding allies and trade, to become a nation people loved and respect.
    While Mongol and Qing was more interested in war and invadion, building a regin of hate.

    Finally, the article was untrue. In Ming, foreign ideas and science was welcomed by the government. Many records from Ming indicate a healthy relationship with Europe. There are Confucian Scholars whom believes that Europe is as good a civilization as China. One thing, Christianity spread to China during Ming, even 2 of the emperors was almost converted.
    Too many lies were crafted by the Manchurian to promote themselves; almost no historical records from Qing can be trusted.
    Last edited by Son of Light; 08-02-07 at 01:24 AM.
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    Registered User JamesG's Avatar
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    Sigh! I couldn't change his mind with a Cricket bat!!!

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