Something I don't get about Yeung Family Spear Technique

[Ken Cheng]

There's something that I don't understand about Yeung Family Spear Technique.

It's been said that this spear technique, while highly effective against a large number of opponents in a battlefield environment, is entirely ineffective in one-on-one wulin type confrontations. That's why although Yeung Teet Sum in LOCH could mow down enemy soldiers by the dozen using this technique, he invariably looked like a chump against even the weakest individual wulin fighters.

But that doesn't make any sense.

Let's say Yeung Gor, at the end of ROCH with all his vast inner power, learned and mastered his family's ancestral spear technique. Does that mean that if he used this technique to fight *one* Golden Wheel Monk, it wouldn't help him much (in fact, he'd get beaten if he used this technique only, even with his great inner power), but if he were fighting TEN Golden Wheel Monks with this technique, it'd suddenly become super effective?

That's how it sounds based on earlier descriptions I've read about how Yeung Family Spear Technique works, but it just makes no sense.

[deccan]

Maybe it's a type of technique that relies on a whole army of soldiers using it in formation against another army? Kinda like the Spartans with their shields.

[CC]

It might work against 10 GWM's _if_ they fought using standard military drills instead of using their Pachyderm Lizard Prana Skill I suppose.

i.e. No leaping 1 zhang in the air, no LDA palm blasts, no inner energy usage etc etc

[tape]

It probably relies on a lot of full body thrusts or other motions that leave you open to attack for quicker wulin fighters. Against regular soldiers it might not be a problem.

[ChronoReverse]

Taking it too literally KC. It's a technique designed to fight great numbers of unskilled (in terms of martial arts) soldiers. The key point is the unskilled part.

[Ken Cheng]

Taking it too literally KC. It's a technique designed to fight great numbers of unskilled (in terms of martial arts) soldiers. The key point is the unskilled part.

In the hands of someone who has inner power training such as Yeung Gor, however, can it be used with any effectiveness against other martial artists? Perhaps not another Great such as the Golden Wheel Monk, but maybe against good mid-level fighters such as Fok Do or Wan Hak Sai?

[CC]

In the hands of someone who has inner power training such as Yeung Gor, however, can it be used with any effectiveness against other martial artists? Perhaps not another Great such as the Golden Wheel Monk, but maybe against good mid-level fighters such as Fok Do or Wan Hak Sai?

I think the main point is that even lower level wulin fighters (below the level of Huo Du) will not fight using standard military style formations*. Think of the Yang Family Spear as a martial art designed specifically to counter one specific martial art (that being standard Song era military formations).

*Yes you can force them into military formations and tactics, but in doing so, no kung-fu stunts and feats, making them no different individually from plain soldiers.

[Ken Cheng]

I think the main point is that even lower level wulin fighters (below the level of Huo Du) will not fight using standard military style formations*. Think of the Yang Family Spear as a martial art designed specifically to counter one specific martial art (that being standard Song era military formations).

*Yes you can force them into military formations and tactics, but in doing so, no kung-fu stunts and feats, making them no different individually from plain soldiers.

On occassion in LOCH, Yeung Teet Sum had to defend himself against martial artists sent against him by Prince Yeun Nan Hung Lit of the Jin Empire. Even though Yeung was definitely *not* fighting soldiers in a formation, he had to rely on his spear technique anyway...because it was all he had?

I wish this martial art were more versatile. There's a vague sense that it *should* be because of all its various depictions in adaptations of the Yeung Family saga. In many of these adaptations, the Yeung Family warriors are depicted fighting not only soldiers, but foreign wulin warriors as well. In such cases, the spear technique seems to work in one-on-one combat against wulin type fighters as it does against swarms of soldiers. In the 1981 TVB production YEUNG'S WOMEN WARRIORS, wherein the Yeung Family was as much involved in wulin as they were in the military, the Yeung Family Spear Technique was even depicted as a weapons technique that rivaled the Beggar's Union Dog Beating Stick Technique (yeah, yeah I know...overly imaginative TVB scriptwriters, but still, those Yeung Family legends didn't just grow out of the ether...)

In LOCH, in fact, Yau Chui Gei saw the Yeung Family Spear Technique in action and was quite impressed. As a mid-level wulin stalwart himself, Yau probably wouldn't have been impressed by a glorified crowd-control spear technique.

Whenever Yeung Teet Sum gets his butt handed to him in LOCH, I always wonder if it's because he personally sucks as a martial artist or if it's because his family's spear technique sucks.

[tape]

I think Qiu Chuji was more impressed that he knew the authentic Yang Family Spear, which indicates he is of patriotic lineage, than he was of the actual spear techniques. He defeated it very easily, but he himself is an elite fighter so that's no surprise. I personally just think the techniques are too slow and dangerous to be using against nimble wulin fighters who can take advantage of a slow swinging spear. Of course the higher your martial arts/inner strength the faster you'll be, but it seems to be a inherent disadvantage to be using a weapon that can't possibly have that much speed or variation against top notch opponents.

[Ken Cheng]

I think Qiu Chuji was more impressed that he knew the authentic Yang Family Spear, which indicates he is of patriotic lineage, than he was of the actual spear techniques. He defeated it very easily, but he himself is an elite fighter so that's no surprise. I personally just think the techniques are too slow and dangerous to be using against nimble wulin fighters who can take advantage of a slow swinging spear. Of course the higher your martial arts/inner strength the faster you'll be, but it seems to be a inherent disadvantage to be using a weapon that can't possibly have that much speed or variation against top notch opponents.

The irony is that a weak, low-level fighter such as Yeung Teet Sum with this spear technique actually might do better against a swarm of enemy troops than the wulin master Yau Chui Gei would. The death of Gwok Jing post-ROCH and the near helplessness of the Chinese wulin against the Mongol armies at the end of HSDS before Chow Chi Yerk gave Cheung Mo Gei the Mo Muk War Tactics Manual seems to indicate that wulin martial arts had limited effectiveness against large numbers of troops, which is ironically where the "weak" Yeung Family Spear Technique thrived.

[PJ]

Wuxia-style martial arts aren't that useful for military combat, while military-style techniques like Yang Family Spear are useless in wuxia style combat.

Nevertheless, Some martial arts should be useful for military fighting. I can imagine Dongfang Bubai and Xiao Longnu drifting through an army, slaughtering hundreds of soldiers in one minute. Or DGSD Elites using LDA to kill a horde of soldiers in one stance.

[CC]

Wuxia-style martial arts aren't that useful for military combat, while military-style techniques like Yang Family Spear are useless in wuxia style combat.

Nevertheless, Some martial arts should be useful for military fighting. I can imagine Dongfang Bubai and Xiao Longnu drifting through an army, slaughtering hundreds of soldiers in one minute. Or DGSD Elites using LDA to kill a horde of soldiers in one stance.

The ultimate martial art for military use (aside from TVB edition Xiang Long Zhang) should be the Decaying Corpse Technique. The area effect from one stance should equal the spectacle of TVB Dragon Palms.

[Candide]

The irony is that a weak, low-level fighter such as Yeung Teet Sum with this spear technique actually might do better against a swarm of enemy troops than the wulin master Yau Chui Gei would. The death of Gwok Jing post-ROCH and the near helplessness of the Chinese wulin against the Mongol armies at the end of HSDS before Chow Chi Yerk gave Cheung Mo Gei the Mo Muk War Tactics Manual seems to indicate that wulin martial arts had limited effectiveness against large numbers of troops, which is ironically where the "weak" Yeung Family Spear Technique thrived.

Best example was when a whole lot of top martial artists at the Heroes Conference with the help of the war-trained 5 Flags Ming cultists on Shaolin (HSDS) were unable to overcome the Mongol army of 5000 (they had more at the back but the frontline was only that many, IIRC). The martial artists were expecting a slaughter until the Ming army showed up, outnumbered the Mongols, broke their formation from behind and saved our guys and gals.

[Ren Ying Ying]

The irony is that a weak, low-level fighter such as Yeung Teet Sum with this spear technique actually might do better against a swarm of enemy troops than the wulin master Yau Chui Gei would. The death of Gwok Jing post-ROCH and the near helplessness of the Chinese wulin against the Mongol armies at the end of HSDS before Chow Chi Yerk gave Cheung Mo Gei the Mo Muk War Tactics Manual seems to indicate that wulin martial arts had limited effectiveness against large numbers of troops, which is ironically where the "weak" Yeung Family Spear Technique thrived.

not necessarily more effective. i'm sure wulin master qiu would do just as well as mr. yang when battling the masses. the ineffective part is that one master qiu cannot battle 1000 soldiers by himself. but then again, neither can mr. yang.

the effectiveness of teh yang spear in battle might be because it's the best you can get without formal martial arts training (with the internal energy and all that junk), which would suit well for training the average soldier.

[Ian Liew]

Maybe it relies more on swinging arcs and changes in direction to attack multiple directions at once, and hence is difficult to flank and strike from behind (the main advantage of numbers). The "returning horse spear" more seemed to specialise in striking an opponent directly behind you, rather useless if you were fighting somebody one on one unless you turned your back and suckered your opponent to come at you unprepared. A prepared Qiu Chuji had no problems neutralising "returning horse spear" even though Guo Shaotian really thought that Yang would kill Qiu.

I also recall Qiu saying something about Yang family spear being really good when used on horseback, but not so good on flat ground due to lack of footwork. Basically, the best skill to lead a cavalry charge with, and if you're dismounted, just carve your way through weak troops.

[PJ]

The ultimate martial art for military use (aside from TVB edition Xiang Long Zhang) should be the Decaying Corpse Technique. The area effect from one stance should equal the spectacle of TVB Dragon Palms.

Are you talking about Fu Shi Du?

[sarakoth]

We can't just assume Yang Tieshan to be weak just because he's the weakest character we know of in LOCH. For all we know, his skill level may be that of an average wuxia warrior or even above that. Think about it, Yang Kang was trained by QCJ, considered an elite fighter. Mu Nianci was taught for three days by a Great. Although they're much better than YTS, what about the average wuxia fighter like the ones that got their @$$3$ kicked by a teenage Han Xiaoying and the other Freaks, probably in the top 0.1% (out of hundreds of thousands, there were probably hundreds of fighters better than them).

[ChronoReverse]

In the hands of someone with internal energy, it's still useless KC.


When you have little to no internal energy couple with little to no technique, the ability to merely hit with a spear is dominant. Hence Yang Family Spear Style is designed to maximize hitting arcs.

But if you have internal energy and so does your opponent, coupled with technique, wide swinging arcs are full of flaws that can easily be used to counter you. Hence Yang Family Style Spear would become useless.




So no, it doesn't matter if YG mastered Yang Family Style Spear. It'd be equivalent to handicapping himself. Sure it'll work against weaker opponents, but if he tried to use it against a skilled pugilist near his level, he would get dominated. So nothing silly like YG doing better against 10 GWMs.

[bliss]

A little off-topic but were there any other mentions of spear techniques or spear users in Jin Yong? It seems that this weapon was of limited use in a wuxia styled context. I can think of a few instances of spear users in Gu Long but not much for Jin Yong.

[sarakoth]

On occassion in LOCH, Yeung Teet Sum had to defend himself against martial artists sent against him by Prince Yeun Nan Hung Lit of the Jin Empire. Even though Yeung was definitely *not* fighting soldiers in a formation, he had to rely on his spear technique anyway...because it was all he had?

I wish this martial art were more versatile. There's a vague sense that it *should* be because of all its various depictions in adaptations of the Yeung Family saga. In many of these adaptations, the Yeung Family warriors are depicted fighting not only soldiers, but foreign wulin warriors as well. In such cases, the spear technique seems to work in one-on-one combat against wulin type fighters as it does against swarms of soldiers. In the 1981 TVB production YEUNG'S WOMEN WARRIORS, wherein the Yeung Family was as much involved in wulin as they were in the military, the Yeung Family Spear Technique was even depicted as a weapons technique that rivaled the Beggar's Union Dog Beating Stick Technique (yeah, yeah I know...overly imaginative TVB scriptwriters, but still, those Yeung Family legends didn't just grow out of the ether...)

In LOCH, in fact, Yau Chui Gei saw the Yeung Family Spear Technique in action and was quite impressed. As a mid-level wulin stalwart himself, Yau probably wouldn't have been impressed by a glorified crowd-control spear technique.

Whenever Yeung Teet Sum gets his butt handed to him in LOCH, I always wonder if it's because he personally sucks as a martial artist or if it's because his family's spear technique sucks.

Yau Chui Gei wasn't "mid-level", he was probably in the top 50 of wuxia out of hundreds of thousands.