More Condor Trilogy skepticism

[kwekmh]

I'm not so sure, it's more of a opinion based answer. Personally, I still believe that the shock element made GJ use his first instinct instead of making the wiser choice. After all, how many times in history have we seen people make stupid decisions off first instinct because of being shocked?

I personally learn Karate for 11 years and I'm still not sure how I would react if someone caught me by surprise with a bear hug or front choke. I mean, I know the steps for the self defense by heart, but I'm still not sure how I would really respond if I was put in with a "shock" element(I'll obviously know what to do if I'm prepared and know someone is about to attack me). Do the steps of the self defense instantly arise or are you in a state of panic?

They are two different scenarios.

Right now, we're talking about wuxia where people should be used to surprise attacks. In my opinion, Guo Jing should have naturally thought of using LDA. If martial artists in wuxia would be so greatly shocked by such a simple surprise attack, I am surprised they even managed to live so long.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Imagine you have a gun at your waist that you're trained to use. Now, you see, at a distance away from you, a guy attack your daughter. What's your first reaction? Run towards him, or shoot him?

[yittz]

Reminder that GJ did save YG when JLFW was about to KO his ***. GJ was equally shocked about the events that day - arrival of JLFW, defeat of Zhu scholar, reappearance of YG, the martial arts of YG. GJ still reacted and neutralised JLFW.

[CC]

We are talking about 'GREAT' level martial artists here. Guys who are in the top 0.01% of over a 1000 years worth of martial arts fighters. You would think that in any sort of shock situtation, such a person would react to danger/threats in a more appropriate manner if they could. Anyway, RWX put it in analogy pretty well.

e.g. Xiao Feng was shocked to have Ah Zi spit the needle in his face too. But he blasted away with his palm rather then jump back and cover his face with his hands! Remember all that talk about 'Magic Hands' Zhu Cong and how he could or could not assasinate a 'Great'. You guys were rather unanimous in saying that 'GREATS' shouldn't be punked so easily by little surprises and unexpected situations.


Re: Whsie

Your argument about the 'surprise' bear hug is not without grounds BUT again, we are talking about "GREAT" level martial artists here. Do you honestly think people like Mas Oyama or Bruce Lee or Mirko Filipovic or Royce Gracie would be in a similar 'stunned mode' if you bear hugged them in surprise?

p.s. I don't really believe that GJ cant do an LDA. I just love pointing out JY internal inconsistencies.

[batmankiller]

Imagine you have a gun at your waist that you're trained to use. Now, you see, at a distance away from you, a guy attack your daughter. What's your first reaction? Run towards him, or shoot him?

Enough. YG>GJ =]

[Whsie]

Imagine you have a gun at your waist that you're trained to use. Now, you see, at a distance away from you, a guy attack your daughter. What's your first reaction? Run towards him, or shoot him?

If it was from a total dark of surprise, then I have to suspect if I still remember I have a gun...

[Whsie]

They are two different scenarios.

Right now, we're talking about wuxia where people should be used to surprise attacks. In my opinion, Guo Jing should have naturally thought of using LDA. If martial artists in wuxia would be so greatly shocked by such a simple surprise attack, I am surprised they even managed to live so long.

The difference is that the attack wasn't "simple". GJ thought Huo Du was already dead. It's like someone dead just suddenly jumped out of a coffin.... I'm pretty sure even elite martial artists would be surprised when someone they thought dead would suddenly become alive.

And finally, I also have to add that JY also likely made it that GJ didn't use a LDA for plot reasons. If GJ already killed Huo Du there was no point in YG and HYS showing up.

[kwekmh]

The difference is that the attack wasn't "simple". GJ thought Huo Du was already dead. It's like someone dead just suddenly jumped out of a coffin.... I'm pretty sure even elite martial artists would be surprised when someone they thought dead would suddenly become alive.

And finally, I also have to add that JY also likely made it that GJ didn't use a LDA for plot reasons. If GJ already killed Huo Du there was no point in YG and HYS showing up.

Acting dead should be a common way of tricking your opponents, I've at least seen it quite a few times so it's common IMHO.

Plot reasons? Fine. Then there's no need for this forum anymore. You can just say that everything is that way because the author wanted it that way for plot reasons.

Plot reasons aside, the most logical explanation for this would be that GJ was not used to this kind of surprised attack. That would mean that he's less experienced. (Am I contradicting myself? :O) Either that, or he really can't perform a LDA.

[Athena]

In the same chapter where Xiao Feng defended A Zhu from attackers (he used his palm energy to keep them at bay). He pulled Granny Tan away from A Zhu, he lifted Granny Tan up and tossed her away.

Seemingly, using Long distance attacks is also about the right angle. Granny Tan's palm was just mere inches away from A Zhu's head.
Guo Fu was on a elevated podium, Guo Jing's palm energy could have tumbled the stage but would that have saved Guo Fu? Not really, because Huo Du crashed down on Guo Fu, he did not need a thing to stand on anymore.

Another interesting bit is that I have never seen Xiao Feng do a long distance acupoint sealing or unsealing feat. From sealing and unsealing Quan Guanqing to sealing and unsealing Qing Hongmian and Mu Wanqing.
Duan Zhengming could do long it, but we all know that it takes at least three Duan Zhengmings to reach a draw with Xiao Feng.

I have some spare time, so bear with me.

[Dennis Chen]

That's oversimplifying the situation.

You should ask what would take more time: Guo Jing running to the stage, or look down to see if there are any pebbles on the ground; if so pick up the nearest one; place it at the correct position in his hand; then get a good look at the enemy's exact location; and try his best to aim the pebble at the enemy.

Somehow running sounds more practical.

You're obfuscating the issue and making it more complex than it really is. It should be more like shooting a bow and arrow. With practice, it becomes one fluid motion, not a series of independent actions as you are suggesting. That's what martial arts is all about.

That's what I've always been trying to get at with PJ. He seems to think that just because Xiao Feng could do an LDA, he's more powerful than everybody else. All that means is that Xiao Feng learned how to do LDA's whereas nobody else had. Just like how Zhang Wuji could redirect people's attacks, which few other people could do.

It took Yang Guo hours of roaring to get Ying Gu to come out of her hut. Xie Xun's Lion's Roar could handicap people in minutes. Does this mean Xie Xun's internal is better than Yang Guo's? I seriously doubt that.

[Exodus]

You're obfuscating the issue and making it more complex than it really is. It should be more like shooting a bow and arrow. With practice, it becomes one fluid motion, not a series of independent actions as you are suggesting. That's what martial arts is all about.

That's what I've always been trying to get at with PJ. He seems to think that just because Xiao Feng could do an LDA, he's more powerful than everybody else. All that means is that Xiao Feng learned how to do LDA's whereas nobody else had. Just like how Zhang Wuji could redirect people's attacks, which few other people could do.

It took Yang Guo hours of roaring to get Ying Gu to come out of her hut. Xie Xun's Lion's Roar could handicap people in minutes. Does this mean Xie Xun's internal is better than Yang Guo's? I seriously doubt that.

Ying Gu's internal was way better than any of the people that XX used lions roar on. think that Ging Gu could kill XX with her frozen arrow palm

[Dennis Chen]

Ying Gu's internal was way better than any of the people that XX used lions roar on. think that Ging Gu could kill XX with her frozen arrow palm

Where's your proof?

[PJ]

In the same chapter where Xiao Feng defended A Zhu from attackers (he used his palm energy to keep them at bay). He pulled Granny Tan away from A Zhu, he lifted Granny Tan up and tossed her away.

The only reason I can think of to explain why Qiao Feng rushed forward to lift up Granny Tan instead of blasting her away with LDA, is that Granny was directly in front of Qiao Feng; if he blasted her, it would send her tumbling on Ah Zhu.

Seemingly, using Long distance attacks is also about the right angle. Granny Tan's palm was just mere inches away from A Zhu's head.

Yes, I believe the angle has to be feasible for a LDA. That's why I think it is highly likely that Qiao Feng was disadvantageously positioned with respect to Granny Tan and Ah Zhu such that he could not launch a LDA to blast Granny away from Ah Zhu.

Guo Fu was on a elevated podium, Guo Jing's palm energy could have tumbled the stage but would that have saved Guo Fu? Not really, because Huo Du crashed down on Guo Fu, he did not need a thing to stand on anymore.

In this case, I don't think Guo Jing's positioning angle would have been a problem. If any circumstance prevented Guo Jing from using LDA, it would have to be insufficient time for the blast to reach Huodu. When Huodu first leaped up, he should have been above Guo Fu, so that would have been a good moment to blast him away. But if the blast reaches him after he has striked Guo Fu then it would be no good. And it's possible that rushing forward could be faster than LDA, so I could see that as a potential explanation.

About tumbling the stage, that shouldn't have been an issue. LDA can be aimed precisely, IMO. Ding Chunqiu had Ah Zi in one arm when he felt massive pressure from Xiao Feng's palm blast, but Ah Zi was not described to felt such pressure, which implies that Xiao Feng's blast was directed precisely at Ding.

Another interesting bit is that I have never seen Xiao Feng do a long distance acupoint sealing or unsealing feat.

He did perform a long distance acupoint sealing to Reverend Zhiguang in chap 16:

智光撕信之時，先向火堆走了幾步，與喬峰離遠了些，再將信箋湊到眼邊，似因光亮不
足，瞧不清楚，再這麼撕信入口，信箋和嘴唇之間相距不過寸許，喬峰萬萬料不到這位德高
望重的老僧竟會使這狡獪會倆，一聲怒吼，左掌拍出，凌空拍中了他穴道

The initial distance between Xiao Feng and Reverend Zhiguang was probably at least 1 to 2 feet. Zhiguang then walked several steps away, and each step (including the extra distance between the left foot and the right foot) was probably around 2 feet. So, the final distance between Xiao and Zhiguang was probably around 7 to 10 feet. Xiao Feng then launched a palm from that distance which sealed Zhiguang's acupoint.

This feat also illustrates the fact that LDA can be very precise, since Qiao Feng used a palm strike to seal the acupoint through the air which requires high precision.

[PJ]

You're obfuscating the issue and making it more complex than it really is. It should be more like shooting a bow and arrow. With practice, it becomes one fluid motion, not a series of independent actions as you are suggesting. That's what martial arts is all about.

I merely outlined the steps NECESSARY for Guo Jing to shoot a pebble at that point. If you disagree with the steps I outlined, you are welcome to provide a simplified version of the process with the NECESSARY steps.

That's what I've always been trying to get at with PJ. He seems to think that just because Xiao Feng could do an LDA, he's more powerful than everybody else. All that means is that Xiao Feng learned how to do LDA's whereas nobody else had. Just like how Zhang Wuji could redirect people's attacks, which few other people could do.

The range of attack has been shown to be directly proportional to the level of internal energy -- although this doesn't seem to be the case for LOCH and ROCH. An inconsistency, perhaps? I am not arguing who's stronger than who here. Like CC said, we've made a hobby of POIIFTFOI: Pointing Out Interesting Ideas For The Fun Of It.

Logically speaking though, LDA is not a skill that you learn, but a level you attain once you have sufficient internal energy. It should be technique-independent.

It took Yang Guo hours of roaring to get Ying Gu to come out of her hut. Xie Xun's Lion's Roar could handicap people in minutes. Does this mean Xie Xun's internal is better than Yang Guo's? I seriously doubt that.

Yang Guo wasn't even trying to hurt Yinggu. He just wanted to be loud.

[ChronoReverse]

I'll only point out that the assertion that LDA rage is only dependent on internal energy is patently implausible.

[PJ]

I'll only point out that the assertion that LDA rage is only dependent on internal energy is patently implausible.

Maybe implausible for you to comprehend, but Jin Yong did in fact write that attacking range is internal energy-dependent. Read this for proof. I'm too tired to translate the text. Get a translator if you can't read Chinese.

　　半空中两只兀鹰一直不住地在盘旋。狄云躺在地下，一动也不动。蓦地里一头兀鹰扑将下来，向他额头上啄去 。狄云昏昏沉沉地似晕非晕，给兀鹰这一啄，立时醒转。那鹰见他身子一动，急忙扬翅上飞。狄云大怒，喝道：“ 连你这畜生也来欺侮我！”右掌奋力击出。那鹰离他身子只有数尺，被掌力所震，登时毛羽纷飞，落 了下来。
　　狄云一把抓起，哈哈大笑，一口咬在鹰腹，那鹰双翅乱扑，极力挣扎。狄云只觉咸咸的鹰血不住流入嘴中，便 如一滴滴精力流入体内，忍不住手舞足蹈，叫道：“你想吃我？我先吃了你，我吃了你。”
　　花铁干和水笙见到他这等生吃活鹰的疯状，都是骇然变色。
　　花铁干生怕这疯子狂性大发，随时会过来跟自己拚命，给他一把抱住那可糟糕，还是远而避之的为妙。当下绕 到雪谷东首，心想这疯子捉鹰之法倒是不错，当下仰卧在地，要想依样画葫芦，装死捉鹰。岂知兀鹰虽然上当，下 来啄食，但他挥掌击去，却没能将鹰击落。他内力和狄云相差甚远，掌法虽然巧妙，可是苍鹰闪避灵动，却更加迅捷得多。
　　雪谷中兀鹰不少，偏又蠢得厉害，眼见同伴接连丧生在狄云掌下，却仍不断地下来送死。狄云内力日增，掌力亦日劲，到得后来，已不用躺下装死，只要见有飞禽在树枝低处栖歇，或者从身旁飞过，便能发掌击落。雪谷中时有雪雁 出没，能在冰雪中啄食虫蚁，躯体甚肥，更是狄云和水笙日常的口中美食。
　　花铁干若有能耐打鸟，自然决不会以义兄弟的尸体为食，但他千方百计的捕捉鸟雀，初时还捉到一两头，过得 几天，鸟雀再不上当。他又无狄云的神照功内劲，能以掌力击鸟。这一日他吃完了陆、刘二人的尸体后，手持刀剑，决意来杀狄水二人，再加上埋藏在冰雪中的水岱和血刀老祖的 尸体，以此为食，当可捱到初夏，静待雪融出谷。

[CC]

I'll only point out that the assertion that LDA rage is only dependent on internal energy is patently implausible.

On top of the Linked City translation PJ posted, I would like to hear the evidence to back up your assertion that the theory is 'patently implausible'.

[duguxiaojing]

I do believe that inner power and LDA are correlated. In a thread a few months back IIRC it was who PJ was trying to provide evidence to change my mind. I believe that if guys like HD and heck even YG(Ying Gu) could fire LDA's at roughly the ten foot range then great level fighters should be able to surpass that distance easily. OYF showed that he was capable of doing damaging attacks at around 10 feet as well in LOCH(although the distance was never directly stated in the scenarios) and the greats at ROCH end have exceeded him greatly in terms of technique and inner power(using GWM as a benchmark). Therefore they SHOULD be able to perform those XF like feats...problem is we never see them do it =p.....

Although one scene that seems to contradict this theory which comes to mind is MCF vs GJ. She could feel the power of his palms at 10 feet and had difficulty breaking through his defense because of this. It was stated that both her inner power and martial arts surpassed GJ by many folds yet GJ clearly was able extend his palm energies futher than MCF.

[Dennis Chen]

I contend that LDA was a specialized art. Just like sucking someone else's internal energy. Or, directing someone else's attack back at them.

Guo Jing nor Yang Guo could perform an LDA. Neither of them could suck someone else's internal energy. Also, neither of them could turn someone else's attack back at the person. Does that mean that either Guo Jing or Yang Guo was weaker than Duan Yu/Ren Wo Xing or Zhang Wuji? Absolutely not. They could still defeat the other people. But not necessarily with the same skills. Just like HYS and YD. HYS' Tanzhi Shentong was inferior to YD's Yi Yang Zhi. However, in a fight, there would be no clear cut winner.

I have to agree with PJ. In the specific situation that he describes, Xiao Feng could have the advantage. However, in a situation that required internal energy consumption (e.g. being able to outlast someone else internal energywise) or in bow and arrow, wrestling, horseriding, use of the sword, use of finger kung fu, Guo Jing just might edge out Xiao Feng.

[CC]

IAlthough one scene that seems to contradict this theory which comes to mind is MCF vs GJ. She could feel the power of his palms at 10 feet and had difficulty breaking through his defense because of this. It was stated that both her inner power and martial arts surpassed GJ by many folds yet GJ clearly was able extend his palm energies futher than MCF.

That can probably be explained by GJ using the #1 Palm Technique ever.