More Condor Trilogy skepticism

[CC]

Going back to POIIFTFOI.

I still think XF's triple Kang Long You Hui was a BAD plot idea by JY.

You are trying to save a hostage in someone's arms, the last thing you should be doing is to lob a grenade or fire a rocket or 3 at the hostage taker!

What if DCQ had flung Ah Zi into the path of the palm force as a shield? That would be the sensible thing to do. After all, he had time to jump back and raise his own palms in defence after taking the time to fling Ah Zi away.

No matter how accurate the palm strike was (and it was described like a wall, not a point force), DCQ can still throw Ah Zi in front as a shield since he had time to react in defence. Unless the Kang Long You Hui's can be cancelled at the last moment, which seems implausible since they were already 30 feet out in front and there were 3 of them merged.

[tape]

XF probably knows he wouldn't do that, because if he did, he would get smashed into oblivion shortly afterwards.

[PJ]

I contend that LDA was a specialized art. Just like sucking someone else's internal energy. Or, directing someone else's attack back at them.

See, This is where we disagree. But This point doesn't stand when you consider XF and H7G and GJ all knew the Dragon Palm as their main technique.

Also, if you look at the textual example that I pasted above, it is suggested by the narrator that range of attack (ROA) is internal energy-dependent. It said that even though Hua Tiegan's palm technique was much more refined, he couldn't project his energy to as far as Di Yun, whose internal energy was simply much more abundant.

Perhaps more convincingly, it is also said that as Di Yun's internal power increased, he could launch LDAs with greater ease AND of greater range. See the example pasted above.

Guo Jing nor Yang Guo could perform an LDA.

Wait a minute, are you sure you agree with that?
I'ma let you in on a little secret here: I'm acting as the devil's advocate. I actually really would like someone to prove me wrong; I would like to see solid proof that Condor Greats CAN perform LDA, b/c that would make the feats more consistent, since even people 5 times weaker than them from the same novels can perform a semi-LDA. Sometimes this is considered the Lazy Method, letting other people do the digging for you.

Neither of them could suck someone else's internal energy. Also, neither of them could turn someone else's attack back at the person. Does that mean that either Guo Jing or Yang Guo was weaker than Duan Yu/Ren Wo Xing or Zhang Wuji? Absolutely not. They could still defeat the other people. But not necessarily with the same skills. Just like HYS and YD. HYS' Tanzhi Shentong was inferior to YD's Yi Yang Zhi. However, in a fight, there would be no clear cut winner.

In addition to the textual evidence implying LDA = internal energy-driven, The characteristic about LDA is that it can be performed with just about ANY hand or weapon technique. Palm, finger, fist, sword, flicking, etc can all launch LDA. Its usage is not specific at all. M E A N W H I L E , you can't learn any technique and then absorb or redirect internal energy with it.

[PJ]

Going back to POIIFTFOI.

I have already mastered saying this word with decent accuracy and speed. How about you?

I still think XF's triple Kang Long You Hui was a BAD plot idea by JY.

Yes, I think I agree with you.

No matter how accurate the palm strike was (and it was described like a wall, not a point force),

In order to stand by my earlier point about LDA being extremely precisely aimed, I can only imagine that the aim was actually very precise, while the effect on people is such that it feels wider. In other words, some LDAs can feel deceiving!

DCQ can still throw Ah Zi in front as a shield since he had time to react in defence. Unless the Kang Long You Hui's can be cancelled at the last moment, which seems implausible since they were already 30 feet out in front and there were 3 of them merged.

What if he decided to suck it all back at the last moment just before it reached Ding Chunqiu/Ah Zi? I can already imagine a great editing trick to make this an instant classic (which would involve an awkward backwards replay of the footage!).

[PJ]

By the way Dennis Chen,

HYS' Tanzhi Shentong was inferior to YD's Yi Yang Zhi.

Can you tell me Where is this stated?

[duguxiaojing]

That can probably be explained by GJ using the #1 Palm Technique ever.

But that would mean that LDA's range is not soely dependant on inner power(which is what CR was saying in his post.) Technique's should also be taken into consideration.

I still think XF's triple Kang Long You Hui was a BAD plot idea by JY.

You are trying to save a hostage in someone's arms, the last thing you should be doing is to lob a grenade or fire a rocket or 3 at the hostage taker!

What if DCQ had flung Ah Zi into the path of the palm force as a shield? That would be the sensible thing to do. After all, he had time to jump back and raise his own palms in defence after taking the time to fling Ah Zi away.

It was this triple merged LDA that really had me rethink the whole ROCH greats=TL greats....the sheer distance in which he launced those palms was insane.....

[Ken Cheng]

You know what has always made this especially difficult is that Jin Yong himself is not internally consistent. If he's got contradictions in his own writing, our trying to reconcile all the discrepancies is ultimately not going to be very successful.

[PJ]

Perhaps now is a good time to make a confession.

I used to play a lot of fighting games. Street Fighter series, X-MEN: Children of the Atom, Marvel Super Heroes, X-MEN vs St Fighters, Marvel vs Capcom, etc etc etc. Anyway, it was then that I developed a fondness for Long Distance Attacks: the special attacks that could be launched without physical contact. There were advantages to this in the game. For example in Street Fighters, if you're Bison and I'm Ryu, if you charge at me with your Psycho Crusher move, I can just launch a fire ball and you will be screwed. Yes, I learned from the games, and I was very glad to know that Long Distance Attacks also existed in wuxia.

Of course, there are attributes that can make up for one's lack of LDA capabilities in fighting arcade games. Speed and raw power are two such attributes. Wolverine is so fast that he can get to you before you can launch a LDA, while Juggernaut is so strong that he can take 3 of your LDAs but he'll do more damage with just one punch. So LDA is not always the best, although it usually is I would say.

[tape]

A fellow street fighter player!

Did you play competitively? I played all the games you've mentioned but I didn't get onto a high, competitive level except for Marvel vs Capcom 2, Capcom vs Snk2, and somewhat 3rd Strike. Though there's a bit of comparison in them, it all depends on what the coders use. If you play mvc2 you know that Cable's AHVB takes 1 frame to go from 1 side of the screen to the other, faster than pretty much all attacks even though it was a projectile from the other side of the screen. Aside from that though, you'll find that LDA in videogames in general are second tier at best. The most abused and powerful moves are simple jabs and fierces, depending on the range, power, stun duration, etc.

[PJ]

to tape:

you're right about LDA being less technical than combos consisting of simple moves. But I found it quite useful when playing against the computer. As much as I loved fighting games, I never got into the combos, which are what the top players specialize in. In X-MEN vs Street Fighter for instance, you could do a 15-move combo with Wolverine; starting with a couple of ground hits then moving into the air and perhaps finish with a special move. However sometimes a 15-move combo only does about the same damage as 3 punches by Juggernaut.

Playing the computer is too easy. I set it to the highest level of difficulty, and I still beat the game without dying once. Where did you compete?

[tape]

to tape:

as much as I loved fighting games, I never got into the combos, which are what the top players specialize in. In X-MEN vs Street Fighter for instance, you could do a 20-move combo with Wolverine; starting with a couple of ground hits then moving into the air and perhaps finish with a special move. However sometimes a 20-move combo only does about the same damage as 3 punches by Juggernaut. Like you said, combos are considered more technical than LDA, but I found that when playing against the computer (which is what I did mostly), LDA works quite well.

when you said compete, did you mean professionally? where can you compete such matches?

Yeah, I learned the older games like X-men vs Street Fighter after I got into MvC2. Xmen vs streetfighter is a fun though, because every character has an infinite combo almost, though some harder than others. Wolverine has like 4 different ones. The damage difference is due to damage scaling, after usually 12 hits or so each additional hit only does 1 damage so yeah you'll have to go on for a long time to do anything close to full life damage.

Much like in wuxia though (to keep it on topic ), the super advanced combos that you see is not the hardest part of winning. To me, it feels like exactly the scenario that exists in LOCH ROCH etc. In the beginning you learn how to fireball, dragonpunch, basic combos etc which are the beginning of the martial arts. You can play competitively with your friends on your level, and eventually you think you're good. Then you run into a master who knows like a 15 hit combo, which if he lands, pretty much will kill you or give him a huge advantage. This is kind of like meeting a Qiu Chuji type guy and being awed by his martial arts. Then you move onto the guys who know almost all the combos in the game and create new ones on the fly for new situations, and they completely decimate you, killing you before you even get one hit in. This is like meeting those subpar Great guys like QQR.

Then come the Greats. Their combos (Dragon Palms and Iron Palms are about equal) are pretty much the same as the guy before, but their execution and timing is at a higher level. Their thinking is a bit higher and they capitalize on every mistake. To a beginner, you would never tell who is better unless they fought each other and you can see that one wins consistently though both thrash anyone else. I feel there's so much in common with these two genres, especially since every video game usually is compromised of a tier of characters that are above the rest, which are all different fighting styles. Speed, range, power, durability; all the characters have different unique strengths and create a fun and exciting match. Ok I've babbled too much.

Anyway usually competitively means local or statewide tournaments that you travel to, they used to be a lot bigger maybe 5 years ago but it's really died down since the arcade scene got killed by consoles and various internet/console multiplayer games. You'd have to be in the scene to know about it, kindda like the Jiang Hu. But once you're in you learn of the mythical players that you probably won't encounter like Daigo, Justin Wong, etc depending on the era and game. There are national tournaments too, which draw a couple hundred (it drew close to a thousand a few years ago) which are incredibly fun. I was competitive in the sense that I could hold my own against any player in the world, but I was never in the top 10 of any national. Statewide and local tournies I could usually crack the top places. The more I talk about it the more it parallels a mini Jiang Hu

[CC]

I remember the original Street Fighter. You launch a hadoken and the enemy loses half his life.

I took out Sagat with _One_ shoryuken.

[tape]

I think that's the one SF I've never played.

[CC]

I think that's the one SF I've never played.

I played SF only a bit and couldn't get a single special move out (except by randomly twirling the stick), never got pass the 2nd or 3rd guy.

Then SF2 came and I spent hours on it.

Saw an old SF machine one day, was amazed at how easy it was to play once you can even get the Hadoken out even 50% of the time.

[tape]

Yeah the computer is ridiculously easy except for like Bison who's a little harder. Kindda like playing Starcraft/warcraft campaigns instead of on bnet.

[shortsight]

hmm, ... I was following this thread closely and thought there are more to reveal on the LDA until PJ confession led the thread into a street fighter-marvel-capcom arcade talks.

I wonder why no mention of KOF then??

[tape]

KOF is generally only popular in Asian countries and not in America. Since this is a english wuxia forum I guess most people are from America thus no real exposure to KOF except from Capcom vs SNK characters. Also, my long post above has some wuxia content - don't make ruin the fun! :P

[PJ]

I remember the original Street Fighter. You launch a hadoken and the enemy loses half his life.

I took out Sagat with _One_ shoryuken.

Where did you find a machine like that? I remember playing on a certain machine which had this single-stance execution characteristic. You could also launch multiple slow-traveling fireballs when they're still on the screen, so you'd have maybe 5 massive fireballs going towards the enemy at once, any 2 of which could KO the enemy! Later I found out it was most likely a hacked version. In that version, the only feasible characters to pick are Ken and Zangief. With Zangief, we'd rush forward to do a superthrow of the enemy, then stand next to him while he's down, and repeat the superthrow as soon as he gets up.

[CC]

Where did you find a machine like that? I remember playing on a certain machine which had this single-stance execution characteristic. You could also launch multiple slow-traveling fireballs when they're still on the screen, so you'd have maybe 5 massive fireballs going towards the enemy at once, any 2 of which could KO the enemy! Later I found out it was most likely a hacked version. In that version, the only feasible characters to pick are Ken and Zangief. With Zangief, we'd rush forward to do a superthrow of the enemy, then stand next to him while he's down, and repeat the superthrow as soon as he gets up.

That was an original SF1 machine. In SF1, special moves do insane damage. The one Shoryuken kill of Sagat was because he jumped and landed in front the moment the round started. The Shoryuken hit 3 times and KO'ed him. Not a hacked machine.

I remember those multi-fireball hacked SF2 machines. Ken is the best character. The short Shoryuken for Ken has a short delay so you are invincible if you do nothing except continual short Shoryukens.

[tape]

Yeah those are the hacked machines but they were labelled soemthing like Rainbow Edition to make it sound official