More Condor Trilogy skepticism

[PJ]

I prefer cowardismistic

[Ken Cheng]

I prefer cowardismistic

What a mouthful that is...

[Whsie]

I think there should be a big difference between injury distance and maximum reachable distance. For example, let's take the description of Hong Qigong sending energies to 1+ zhang out. Now let's say he fired that palm blast in an empty field. What would be the maximum coverage to which the palm wind could be felt? Personally, I would say at least 2 zhang. Because IF he could kill within 1 zhang, then the force must be tremendous at 1 zhang. What happens to that force after 1 zhang, does it simply disappear soon? If someone stood 2 zhang away he may not be injured, but I imagine he should still feel it.

I still believe it's closer because as you get farther, it disappears faster due to weaker and weaker energy(or in the case of fighters, less internal support). I personally doubt it takes that far to fully dissolve into thin air because the LDA would lack support from the internal at a point and at that point, tons of physics come in that will easily overcome the energy that is dissolving faster and faster (the energy has less support and more and more resistance is building+we also have Newton's 2nd Law which just further accelerates the dissolve). I personally don't see that dissolving range out of 5 feet.
As for H7G, just because H7G used 10 feet, it doesn't mean that it's the max range for H7G. The purpose for using LDA was so that H7G wouldn't have to go in combat with the weapon and stay at a safe range. At the same time, the LDA could potentially defeat GJ. Therefore, there was no real need to extend it out of 20 feet as GJ either way GJ can't hit H7G from that range. Extending it too far would have actually tired out H7G faster, so using 10 feet was pretty smart.

[Whsie]

There's a real word for that: "cowardly."

that was the first word I thought I of but my spell check said that it didn't exist... maybe my finger slipped or something....

[Athena]

Recently I've been pondering: both internal energy and speed are hard to measure. Dongfang Bubai and Xiao Longnu are generally considered 2 of the fastest people in JY wuxia, faster than the Greats... but there are cases demonstrated by the Greats that resemble the speed of XLN and DFBB. I was just reading LOCH Chapter 34 as part of my investigation for LDA, and found that Huang Yaoshi did this: 一言甫毕，突然回手掌，快似电闪，当真来无影、去无踪。郭靖正自琢磨他父女俩的对答，突然拍的一声，左颊热 辣辣的吃了一记耳光，待要伸手挡架，黄药师的手掌早已回了黄蓉的头上，轻轻抚摸她的秀发。

This feat resembles DFBB's motionless speed.
But a few minutes later: 两人以快打快，倏忽之间拆了五六招。双方互击不中，均各跃开，沈肩拔背，相向瞪视。只听郭靖大喊一声，攻将 上去，数招一过，又分别退开。

Now it seems Huang Yaoshi and Guo Jing are fighting at the same speed. If Huang Yaoshi has proven to be able to move much faster than Guo Jing, why doesn't he take advantage of speed all the time? I leave that for you to ponder.

SIMILARLY, there are traces of LDA in Condor Trilogy, such as the ones Athena posted, even though Jin Yong is very vague about it. Now, if people have been proven to be able to perform LDA, why don't they do it more often, or when they could seemingly take advantage of it? I leave that for you to ponder also.

In summary, it's unclear whether DFBB and XLN are truly faster than Greats and Elites, while it remains fuzzy whether the Elites have more internal energy than the Greats.

By the way I'm only bringing up the speed example because it is so similar to the LDA case: both have been demonstrated in Condor Trilogy but people don't seem to take advantage of them much.

That is a very good question, PJ. A question that I have discussed before with other friends. I think that in the past I even mentioned in a thread that the Greats are capable of performing speed feats like Xiao Longnu and Dongfang Bubai. I used another example, an example in chapter 30: 督脈點完，一燈坐下休息，待郭靖換過線香，又躍起點在她任脈的二十五大穴，這次使的卻全是快手，但見他手臂 顫動，猶如蜻蜓點水，一口气尚未換過，已點完任脈各穴，這二十五招雖然快似閃電，但著指之處，竟無分毫偏差 。

Yideng's movements were just incredibly fast. The moot point we came to was: Does lethality decrease when speed is increased? And does lethality increase when speed decreases? (Especially, when we are talking about the Greats). Sure a slap in the face is nice and all, but does it kill. And similarly can the opponent block the slap in the face when it is generated with lethal energy?
That is difficult to say. Honestly, I don't know.
However, one of the main reasons why I always ranked Tonglao, Wuya Zi and Li Qiushui higher than the DGSD 4 Elites was of the Li Qiushui palm attack and this scene: 正凝思間，突然火光一閃，第一層冰窖中傳出一星光亮，接著便是呼呼之聲大作。虛竹搶上石階，向上望去，只見 一團白影和一團灰影都在急劇旋轉，兩團影子倏分倏合，發出密如聯珠般的拍拍之聲，顯是童姥和李秋水斗得正劇 。冰上燒著一個火折，發出微弱的光芒。虛竹見二人身手之快，當真是匪夷所思，哪里分得出誰是童姥，誰是李秋 水？

Xiao Longnu and Dongfang's speed attacks generated with over half a century worth of Xiaoyao internal strength. That is just scary. One of those women only has one leg and she is moving fast.

P.S. Basically, the commentary you provided for those example I posted were all things I considered too. I really thought Guo Jing's Dragon Subduing Palm across a table was pretty powerful, but it was kind of useless.

[Whsie]

lately I've found another one that is semi LDAish.

黃老邪若要阻攔，哈哈，黃老邪，若要打架，一個黃老邪可不是兩個老頑童的敵手啦！」想到得意之 處，順手揮出，喀喇一聲，打折了路旁一株小樹，驀地驚覺：「怎麼我功力精進如此？這可與雙手互搏的功夫無關。」手扶花樹，呆呆想了一陣，兩手連揮，喀喀喀喀，一連打斷了七
八株樹，不由得心中大震：「這是《九陰真經》中的功夫啊，我……我……我幾時練過了？」
LOCH Chapter 19.
It's curious that ZBT was able to knock a tree off without even trying. After that, he waved twice and 7, 8 trees came down. As much tree there is, I doubt the 5th, 6th, 7th tree are anywhere close. Even with the first tree, I take it as around 3-4 feet. The deeper trees could be as much as 8-10 feet. Just imagine him trying.

[Whsie]

I've seem to found another LDA.

Chapter 34 LOCH: 這時情勢已變，黃藥師使出劈空掌法，只聽得呼呼風響，對手八人攻不進身
去。若論馬鈺、丘處機、王處一等人的武功，黃藥師原不能單憑一對肉掌便將他們擋在丈許之外，但那天罡北斗陣是齊進齊退之勢，孫不二、柯鎮惡、尹志平三人武功較弱，只要有一人給逼退了，餘人只得跟著 後卻。只見眾人進一步退兩步，和黃藥師愈離愈遠，但北斗之勢仍是絲毫不亂。到這時全真派的長劍已及不著黃藥師身上，他卻可以俟隙而攻。再拆數招，洪七公道：「嗯，原來如此。」郭靖忙問：「怎麼？」洪七公道：「黃老邪故意引逗他們展
開陣法，要看清楚天罡北斗陣的精奧，是以遲遲不下殺手。十招之內，他就要縮小圈子
了。」洪七公功力雖失，眼光仍是奇準，果然黃藥師劈出去的掌力一招弱似一招，全真諸子
逐漸合圍，不到一盞茶功夫，眾人似已擠成一團。

In this scene, HYS used a Pi Kong Palm 10 feet+ LDA and at one point stretched the distance further and further with each palm. Each distance stretched was a feet (as they advanced one feet and were repelled by 2 feet). So at one point, the overall distance could have been as much as 20 feet because HYS used several LDA 數招 and each LDA forced the QZ 7 back 1 feet.

Do keep note that the LDA's purpose was not to defeat the QZ 7 and it would have been stupid to have done so. Because QZ 7's combined internal power could at least match HYS, no damage would have been done to any particular QZ 7. And adding on to the fact that LDA is energy inefficient, an LDA fight would have been disadvantageous toward HYS. Someone may say that it's really actually QZ 6 instead of QZ 7, but I think that is the explanation for why the LDA was able to constantly repel the Formation farther and farther. Do keep note that the LDA was likely strong except the energy opposing it is only a bit weaker, resulting in the Dipper Formation being pushed back a bit (like how Yin Tian Zheng was forced back a bit by Dunan in HSDS).

The purpose was clearly stated which was to observe and analyze the Dipper Formation from a safe distance. I must add that it is a pretty smart use of LDA.

[PJ]

I had another look at example #5. The pushing effect resembles LDS more than LDA.

Example 5: 眼見梅超風這一下便要抓到丘處机頂心，突然左右兩股掌風扑到，卻是劉處玄与王處一同時發掌。梅超風右抓繼續 發勁，左掌橫揮，要擋住劉、王二人掌力。豈知這二人掌力同流，一陰一陽，相輔相成，力道竟是大得出奇，遠非 兩人內力相加之可比。梅超風在空中受這大力激蕩，登時向上彈起，右手急忙變抓為掌，力揮之下，身子向后翻出 ，落在門檻之上，不禁大惊失色

[PJ]

lately I've found another one that is semi LDAish.

黃老邪若要阻攔，哈哈，黃老邪，若要打架，一個黃老邪可不是兩個老頑童的敵手啦！」想到得意之 處，順手揮出，喀喇一聲，打折了路旁一株小樹，驀地驚覺：「怎麼我功力精進如此？這可與雙手互搏的功夫無關。」手扶花樹，呆呆想了一陣，兩手連揮，喀喀喀喀，一連打斷了七
八株樹，不由得心中大震：「這是《九陰真經》中的功夫啊，我……我……我幾時練過了？」
LOCH Chapter 19.
It's curious that ZBT was able to knock a tree off without even trying. After that, he waved twice and 7, 8 trees came down. As much tree there is, I doubt the 5th, 6th, 7th tree are anywhere close. Even with the first tree, I take it as around 3-4 feet. The deeper trees could be as much as 8-10 feet. Just imagine him trying.

You assumed he was in a stationary position the entire time, but that may or may not be the case.

[PJ]

I've seem to found another LDA.

Chapter 34 LOCH: 這時情勢已變，黃藥師使出劈空掌法，只聽得呼呼風響，對手八人攻不進身
去。若論馬鈺、丘處機、王處一等人的武功，黃藥師原不能單憑一對肉掌便將他們擋在丈許之外，但那天罡北斗陣是齊進齊退之勢，孫不二、柯鎮惡、尹志平三人武功較弱，只要有一人給逼退了，餘人只得跟著 後卻。只見眾人進一步退兩步，和黃藥師愈離愈遠，但北斗之勢仍是絲毫不亂。到這時全真派的長劍已及不著黃藥師身上，他卻可以俟隙而攻。再拆數招，洪七公道：「嗯，原來如此。」郭靖忙問：「怎麼？」洪七公道：「黃老邪故意引逗他們展
開陣法，要看清楚天罡北斗陣的精奧，是以遲遲不下殺手。十招之內，他就要縮小圈子
了。」洪七公功力雖失，眼光仍是奇準，果然黃藥師劈出去的掌力一招弱似一招，全真諸子
逐漸合圍，不到一盞茶功夫，眾人似已擠成一團。

In this scene, HYS used a Pi Kong Palm 10 feet+ LDA and at one point stretched the distance further and further with each palm.

How is it LDA when it doesn't injure anyone? He's just pushing them back. That's exactly what LDS is.

Not to mention, Huang Yaoshi was NOT able to keep Qiu, Ma, or Wang outside of the 1 zhang range. He was only able to do so to Sun, Yin, and Ke, who are weaker than Qiu, Ma, or Wang.

Do keep note that the LDA's purpose was not to defeat the QZ 7 and it would have been stupid to have done so. Because QZ 7's combined internal power could at least match HYS, no damage would have been done to any particular QZ 7. And adding on to the fact that LDA is energy inefficient, an LDA fight would have been disadvantageous toward HYS.

In other words, not LDA. Another LDS.
Even you admitted he was just shoving them back.

[PJ]

The moot point we came to was: Does lethality decrease when speed is increased? And does lethality increase when speed decreases? (Especially, when we are talking about the Greats). Sure a slap in the face is nice and all, but does it kill. And similarly can the opponent block the slap in the face when it is generated with lethal energy?
That is difficult to say.

Great point Athena. It makes sense that for MOST cases, lethality have an inverse relationship with speed; as speed goes up, lethality goes down.

Let's take Dongfang Bubai as a case study. Whenever he landed hits, his opponents weren't able to respond in time b/c he was so fast, so they suffered his strikes in full. But note his hits weren't that powerful, b/c Ren Woxing etc suffered many needle pokes during the fight and they weren't greatly injured at all. If a Great drove a needle into Ren Woxing's body at regular speed, it would have so much internal energy behind it, I doubt Ren would still be standing. But Dongfang Bubai poked him several times and he was still standing. Reason? Dongfang Bubai fights like a little girl! Shhh... ok really: Sacrifices must be made to enable great speed, and I don't mean USTR: the Ultimate Sacrifice of Testicle-Removal, just a little sacrifice in the power behind his strikes while he's drifting about.

If Dongfang Bubai fought at regular speed, his attacks might be twice more powerful, since he's only about half as fast. But now he would most likely not be able to land any hits on opponents. Instead his opponents will have time to respond to his blows. If his hits are twice as powerful, they might not be able to withstand it.

But somehow, for Dongfang Bubai's case, his speed seems scarier than the power to be gained from slowing down.

[Whsie]

You assumed he was in a stationary position the entire time, but that may or may not be the case.

The first one is a question, but the second one should be stationary because he was in a part state of shock (呆呆想了一陣). He was "testing" the second time around. He wasn't in crazy mode. Chances are, he is stationary for the second wave because there was no reason for him to move all around.

Likewise, based on what do you think ZBT was not stationary. People usually don't move around when they're dumbfounded. The assumption argument only applies if there is reason to believe one assumption is greater than another, which doesn't apply in this case.

[Whsie]

How is it LDA when it doesn't injure anyone? He's just pushing them back. That's exactly what LDS is.

Not to mention, Huang Yaoshi was NOT able to keep Qiu, Ma, or Wang outside of the 1 zhang range. He was only able to do so to Sun, Yin, and Ke, who are weaker than Qiu, Ma, or Wang.



In other words, not LDA. Another LDS.
Even you admitted he was just shoving them back.

To me, LDA and LDS are actually the same. Occasionally, LDS may be the case when the fighter really wants to control his energy (Sweeper Monk), but I've rarely seen any case where the fighter's intent is to just push from a long distance.

In most cases, your defitnition of a LDA is relative based on the battle. For instance, why is XF's palm energy toward DCQ considered an LDA? Because the palm energy level is so different between the 2 that DCQ would be in heaven if he ever dares to match the LDA. Intent? Defeat or kill the opponent.

When the energy in LDA are closer, the result would only be a "push". This is the case as HYS' energy is not strong enough to defeat the combined force of QZ 7. As I mentioned earlier, this example was proven in HSDS when Dunan matched palms with Yin Tian Zheng. While the intention of Dunan is not to kill, but it's likely to at least harm Yin Tian Zheng enough that he will be out of combat. Yet, with this intention in mind, Dunan was only able to "push" (as you call it) Yin Tian Zheng. Why? Because the palm energy difference is only minimal to the point it wouldn't harm Yin Tian Zheng and the remaining energy "left" pushes back Yin Tian Zheng. However, as you could see, even this causes Yin Tian Zheng to be highly stressful.

You've once mentioned XF's palm energy toward MRB and that MRB would be injured if he didn't block it. Well, that is fairly obvious as the QZ 7 would likewise be injured if they didn't block HYS' energy. It's fairly obvious as Yin Tian Zheng would be injured if he didn't block Dunan's energy. The point is, any of those palm energies are all capable of harming opponents which would classify them all as LDA. Now, what would happen if MRB tried to match palms with XF? XF would likely overpower MRB because of his superior palm technique, but would it be enough to cause enough to damage as it would to DCQ? I honestly doubt it. In matter of fact, if MRB was to use a palm technique that is only slighty inferior to XL28Z, MRB would likely only feel the same "pushing effect" as Yin Tian Zheng and the QZ 7 felt because his palm energy would be only slightly inferior to XF's.

This "pushing" effect happens all the time. For instance, when YG matched Gongsun Zhu's Iron Palm, YG needed to retreat 3 steps backward to dissolve the "pushing effect" left by Gongsun Zhu's palm energy. The pushing effect just means that it's any remaining energy left after an exchange. The weaker side would obviously be pushed; however, there would be a point which the energy is so overwhelming that the opponent would simply get harmed, but that only happens if the disparity between the 2 energies is wide enough. In a case of MRB vs. XF, I don't see that happening. I would only seeing pushing effects.

That passage actually is quite confusing as there are a few possible interpretations. My interpretation when I read it: HYS can't keep them all out because if the likes of Ma Yu and Qiu Chu Ji were all over the place, it's logical Qui Chu Ji and the others won't be stuck, but because the Formation has to act as a unit, the stronger ones are all stuck in their position. HYS in this case targeted the weaker ones because there has to be the "support" part of the formation, resulting in a formation that can't do anything but match the energy of HYS' palm, resulting in the farther and farther distance. They're matching palms because it would be likewise just plain idiotic to just stand there and try to run against a wind (nor do I imagine that is the scene Jin Yong was TRYING to write).
If we go by your interpretation, does Jin Yong mean the 3 fighters together or individually? We don't know. But what we do know is that QZ 7 Dipper Formation is roughly ~ a Great. So the pushing effect is perfectly reasonable.

One random made up example for you to ponder on:
Qiu Yun used one of his 5 feet LDA (against the vultures in A Deadly Secret) against XF. Just imagine that. Would that cause ANY sort of damage to XF? XF would probably even think it tickles. And since your defitnition of an LDA is one that is able to "harm", Qiu Yun's LDA is automatically dismissed just because his energy is unable to harm someone stronger.

[PJ]

The first one is a question, but the second one should be stationary because he was in a part state of shock (呆呆想了一陣). He was "testing" the second time around. He wasn't in crazy mode. Chances are, he is stationary for the second wave because there was no reason for him to move all around.

Likewise, based on what do you think ZBT was not stationary. People usually don't move around when they're dumbfounded. The assumption argument only applies if there is reason to believe one assumption is greater than another, which doesn't apply in this case.

呆呆想了一陣，兩手連揮，喀喀喀喀，一連打斷了七八株樹

You assumed it was 呆呆想了一陣 MEANWHILE 兩手連揮，喀喀喀喀，一連打斷了七八株樹

Whereas I think it is 呆呆想了一陣，THEN 兩手連揮，喀喀喀喀，一連打斷了七八株樹

So, I think he knocked down the trees after he got out of the startled mode.

[PJ]

To me, LDA and LDS are actually the same. Occasionally, LDS may be the case when the fighter really wants to control his energy (Sweeper Monk), but I've rarely seen any case where the fighter's intent is to just push from a long distance.

Regardless of the intention, It's the actual feat that distinguishes LDA from LDS. For example, I may intend to kill someone, but if I don't have the power to do it, I will only be able to push him away.

In most cases, your defitnition of a LDA is relative based on the battle. For instance, why is XF's palm energy toward DCQ considered an LDA? Because the palm energy level is so different between the 2 that DCQ would be in heaven if he ever dares to match the LDA. Intent? Defeat or kill the opponent.

Agree, other than that dude Ding Chunqiu is definitely going to HELL.

When the energy in LDA are closer, the result would only be a "push".

Well, this is why it's hard to prove LDA from a case of 2 similar level fighters. It's easier to show LDA from when the adversaries involved have a gap in ability.

This is the case as HYS' energy is not strong enough to defeat the combined force of QZ 7.

In this case, Not only is Huang Yaoshi's energy not strong enough to defeat the formation, it's actually equal to or weaker than the formation's power. So if the formation fights back, my question is why was Huang Yaoshi able to push back the formation when the opponent's power was equal or stronger?

As I mentioned earlier, this example was proven in HSDS when Dunan matched palms with Yin Tian Zheng. While the intention of Dunan is not to kill, but it's likely to at least harm Yin Tian Zheng enough that he will be out of combat. Yet, with this intention in mind, Dunan was only able to "push" (as you call it) Yin Tian Zheng. Why? Because the palm energy difference is only minimal to the point it wouldn't harm Yin Tian Zheng and the remaining energy "left" pushes back Yin Tian Zheng. However, as you could see, even this causes Yin Tian Zheng to be highly stressful.

There's something to be said about this example in regards to our other debate, regarding Yideng vs Golden Wheel Monk.

In fact, in this example we have Dunan vs Yin Tianzheng in an internal combat. Dunan is at least twice more powerful than Yin Tianzheng (otherwise Dunan wouldn't be able to take on Yin + Yang Xiao); Dunan was also fighting Yang Xiao but they were competing external techniques. Dunan therefore used most of his internal energy to counter Yin Tianzheng. I believe Dunan's released power definitely exceeded that of Yin Tianzheng, and yet, of the 10 strokes outside 5+ feet range, Yin Tianzheng countered every stroke from Dunan without having to dodge, even though there is a power gap, and it was said that Dunan's power did not weaken at all as the distance widened.

Yin Tianzheng proved to be able to withstand the power of a tougher opponent at a good distance within a short duration. Therefore, Yideng could also be able to withstand the power of a tougher opponent at a good distance within a short duration WITHOUT NEEDING TO DODGE. And Yideng would probably exhaust himself to death like Yin Tianzheng did, if Yideng were to exchange 500+ strokes with Golden Wheel Monk as Yin Tianzheng did with Dunan, but Yideng only exchanged a few strokes (not sure exactly how many) with GWM, so his exhaustion wasn't that serious, although it was still noticeable to Huang Rong and others.

You've once mentioned XF's palm energy toward MRB and that MRB would be injured if he didn't block it. Well, that is fairly obvious as the QZ 7 would likewise be injured if they didn't block HYS' energy.

First of all, as I raised above, the question is why didn't QZ-7's fight back push Huang Yaoshi away, since QZ-7's formation was stronger (even with a few replacements including Yin Zhiping and Ke Zhen'e).

Secondly, it doesn't prove that they would be injured if they didn't block. The problem with this inter-era comparison is that almost all LDAs launched in DGSD were to targets that DID NOT block, whereas almost all distance attacks launched in Condor Trilogy were to target that DID block. So, we don't know for sure whether DGSD LDAs would cause much damage if the opponents did block; and similarly we don't really know whether Condor LDAs would cause damage if the opponents did not block.

That passage actually is quite confusing as there are a few possible interpretations. My interpretation when I read it: HYS can't keep them all out because if the likes of Ma Yu and Qiu Chu Ji were all over the place, it's logical Qui Chu Ji and the others won't be stuck, but because the Formation has to act as a unit, the stronger ones are all stuck in their position. HYS in this case targeted the weaker ones because there has to be the "support" part of the formation, resulting in a formation that can't do anything but match the energy of HYS' palm, resulting in the farther and farther distance. They're matching palms because it would be likewise just plain idiotic to just stand there and try to run against a wind (nor do I imagine that is the scene Jin Yong was TRYING to write).
If we go by your interpretation, does Jin Yong mean the 3 fighters together or individually? We don't know. But what we do know is that QZ 7 Dipper Formation is roughly ~ a Great. So the pushing effect is perfectly reasonable.

Well, let me speak my thoughts as I interpret the passage. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

First of all, the formation is supposed to fight as a unit, so whoever is doing a move has all 7 people's energies concentrated on him/her. So, it doesn't matter whether Huang Yaoshi is targeting Yin Zhiping or Ma Yu, they both have the power of all 7 people to respond to Huang Yaoshi.

I also believe the formation had equal or power as Huang Yaoshi. When competing raw strength, Huang Yaoshi was at a disadvantage: 郭靖掌风虎虎，当者披靡，一名亲兵被他掌力扫得向外跌开，只须再抢前数步，掌力便可及忽必烈之 身。 Only when he started exploiting the formation's weakness (Ke Zhen'e etc) was he able to turn the tide around. So I don't quite understand why Huang Yaoshi could push them back.

One random made up example for you to ponder on:
Qiu Yun used one of his 5 feet LDA (against the vultures in A Deadly Secret) against XF. Just imagine that. Would that cause ANY sort of damage to XF? XF would probably even think it tickles. And since your defitnition of an LDA is one that is able to "harm", Qiu Yun's LDA is automatically dismissed just because his energy is unable to harm someone stronger.

This is why it's hard to show LDA when the target isn't weaker.

[Whsie]

Regardless of the intention, It's the actual feat that distinguishes LDA from LDS. For example, I may intend to kill someone, but if I don't have the power to do it, I will only be able to push him away.



Agree, other than that dude Ding Chunqiu is definitely going to HELL.



Well, this is why it's hard to prove LDA from a case of 2 similar level fighters. It's easier to show LDA from when the adversaries involved have a gap in ability.



In this case, Not only is Huang Yaoshi's energy not strong enough to defeat the formation, it's actually equal to or weaker than the formation's power. So if the formation fights back, my question is why was Huang Yaoshi able to push back the formation when the opponent's power was equal or stronger?



There's something to be said about this example in regards to our other debate, regarding Yideng vs Golden Wheel Monk.

In fact, in this example we have Dunan vs Yin Tianzheng in an internal combat. Dunan is at least twice more powerful than Yin Tianzheng (otherwise Dunan wouldn't be able to take on Yin + Yang Xiao); Dunan was also fighting Yang Xiao but they were competing external techniques. Dunan therefore used most of his internal energy to counter Yin Tianzheng. I believe Dunan's released power definitely exceeded that of Yin Tianzheng, and yet, of the 10 strokes outside 5+ feet range, Yin Tianzheng countered every stroke from Dunan without having to dodge, even though there is a power gap, and it was said that Dunan's power did not weaken at all as the distance widened.

Yin Tianzheng proved to be able to withstand the power of a tougher opponent at a good distance within a short duration. Therefore, Yideng could also be able to withstand the power of a tougher opponent at a good distance within a short duration WITHOUT NEEDING TO DODGE. And Yideng would probably exhaust himself to death like Yin Tianzheng did, if Yideng were to exchange 500+ strokes with Golden Wheel Monk as Yin Tianzheng did with Dunan, but Yideng only exchanged a few strokes (not sure exactly how many) with GWM, so his exhaustion wasn't that serious, although it was still noticeable to Huang Rong and others.



First of all, as I raised above, the question is why didn't QZ-7's fight back push Huang Yaoshi away, since QZ-7's formation was stronger (even with a few replacements including Yin Zhiping and Ke Zhen'e).

Secondly, it doesn't prove that they would be injured if they didn't block. The problem with this inter-era comparison is that almost all LDAs launched in DGSD were to targets that DID NOT block, whereas almost all distance attacks launched in Condor Trilogy were to target that DID block. So, we don't know for sure whether DGSD LDAs would cause much damage if the opponents did block; and similarly we don't really know whether Condor LDAs would cause damage if the opponents did not block.



Well, let me speak my thoughts as I interpret the passage. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

First of all, the formation is supposed to fight as a unit, so whoever is doing a move has all 7 people's energies concentrated on him/her. So, it doesn't matter whether Huang Yaoshi is targeting Yin Zhiping or Ma Yu, they both have the power of all 7 people to respond to Huang Yaoshi.

I also believe the formation had equal or power as Huang Yaoshi. When competing raw strength, Huang Yaoshi was at a disadvantage: 郭靖掌风虎虎，当者披靡，一名亲兵被他掌力扫得向外跌开，只须再抢前数步，掌力便可及忽必烈之 身。 Only when he started exploiting the formation's weakness (Ke Zhen'e etc) was he able to turn the tide around. So I don't quite understand why Huang Yaoshi could push them back.



This is why it's hard to show LDA when the target isn't weaker.

Well good intention in the example of Sweeper Monk would tell us that SM purposely used an LDS so that the opponent wouldn't get hurt; however, as I said, there aren't many examples of that as an Long Range Attack normally is to at least disable the opponent.

actually the HYS' energy should be stronger because QZ 7 was lacking one of its 7. That is why the Formation would get "pushed" back after taking in the remaining energy.

That wouldn't be the case for Yideng and JLFW because it's a totally different type of combat. Yideng and JLFW were using LDA at each other. It was LDA vs. LDA. Dunan vs. Yin Tianzheng was LDA vs. physical palm. Plus, Yin Tianzheng's energy isn't really only 1/2 of Dunan because Yang Xiao wasn't helping at all internally. Though Yang Xiao likely did distract a portion of the internal, but I doubt it was anything more than 1/4th of Dunan's internal. So in reality, the palm energy clash was closer. The other thing that you have to consider is that JLFW's palm energy has a total advantage against the small finger energies in terms of power; therefore, a bog down in exchanges like that is unwise for Yideng (which I explained multiple times...... ).

In addition, the reason why Yideng was feeling the fatigue was not due to the stress felt like how Yin Tianzheng felt, but instead it was due to the energy eater aspect of the Solitary Yang Finger. As ZBT once said in LOCH to GJ, when Wang Chongyang used Solitary Yang Finger, all his energy was drained because the art quite literally eats up someone's energy. Now, with that in mind, also add in LDA for the 90 years old monk. OF COURSE he would feel the fatigue.

I don't think the QZ Formation with the replacements is stronger than HYS.... No way Yi Pinzhi can match up to the fallen warrior.

About your interpretation. The first aspect that I disagree is that all have the internal energy constantly. You said, "so whoever is doing a move has all 7 people's energies concentrated on him/her." I don't think that is true as shown in the formation. Whenever HYS would attack one person, the others have to "support" the QZ 7 being attacked. If one QZ 7 really did possess all the internal at one point, there would no longer be the point of protecting each other. Therefore, when HYS aims his palm energy at the weaker fighters, the stronger ones have to come in and support the weaker ones. This would result into a palm exchange similar to Dunan and Yin Tianzheng.

If HYS' palm energy is really weaker, than there was no point in HYS repelling the others back. The unit of QZ fighters would be able to come in instead of being repelled out. As I said, I believe this is due to the death of the 7th QZ member. And HYS exploited that weakness by using LDA to observe from a safe distance. As I mentioned in my analysis earlier, at one point, the distance could have been as far as 20 feet. If the QZ 6+Yin Pizhi was really stronger together, they wouldn't have been locked out and repelled so far.

As you said yourself, "This is why it's hard to show LDA when the target isn't weaker." Or in the case we're talking about right now, HYS' palm energy isn't that much above QZ 6+Yin Pinzhi. But if HYS was to say use the palm energy on Yang Kang or say an 8 Patch Beggar, would they get injured? I personally think so.

[PJ]

Allow me to elaborate further Regarding this issue:

The problem with this inter-era comparison is that almost all LDAs launched in DGSD were to targets that DID NOT block, whereas almost all distance attacks launched in Condor Trilogy were to target that DID block. So, we don't know for sure whether DGSD LDAs would cause much damage if the opponents did block; and similarly we don't really know whether Condor LDAs would cause damage if the opponents did not block.

Let's look at the positively identified LDAs and LDS' in DGSD, and we can see how they were all performed on nonblocking opponents:

-Xiao Feng's LDA on Yun Zhonghe: Yun was running away and not blocking

-Xiao Feng's various LDA at Juxian Manor: mostly unblocked

-Li Qiushui's LDA on Xuzhu: unblocked

-Murong Bo's LDAs on Duan Zhengchun et al: caught them by surprise

-Sweeper Monk's LDS on Jiumozhi: unblocked, as far as we know

The only DGSD LDA which was confirmed to cause injury even if blocked, is Xiao Feng's triple-wave LDA on Ding Chunqiu.

NOW let's examine the known long distance strikes in Condor Trilogy which are positively identified as 1+ zhang:

-Hong Qigong's 1+ zhang XL18Z: it said that Guo Jing used the weapon to block

-Huodu's 1+ zhang strike: Yelu Qi countered

-Yideng vs GWM: both fought back

-Huang Yaoshi vs 7 Masters of Quanzhen: they fought back

-Mei Chaofeng vs Guo Jing: Mei tired him out

There is the 1 zhang strike that Yinggu of all people launched on Guo Xiang, which was described as injury-inducing. BUT that strike was intercepted prematurely, so we never saw its actual result. But we know it would most likely inflict damage on Guo Xiang from 1 zhang away.

Overall, Condor Trilogy's LD strikes were always countered by the opponent in some way, whereas most of the DGSD LDAs caught the opponent by surprise. It would be extremely interesting to see an example of what would happen in the case of nonblocking opponents in Condor Trilogy, and blocking opponents in DGSD.

[Whsie]

呆呆想了一陣，兩手連揮，喀喀喀喀，一連打斷了七八株樹

You assumed it was 呆呆想了一陣 MEANWHILE 兩手連揮，喀喀喀喀，一連打斷了七八株樹

Whereas I think it is 呆呆想了一陣，THEN 兩手連揮，喀喀喀喀，一連打斷了七八株樹

So, I think he knocked down the trees after he got out of the startled mode.

Either way we look at it, I don't really think there is any reason for ZBT to start moving again. Even after a state of shock, he wanted to test out his powers and I don't think moving around would really test his power.
Plus, based on your imagination, ZBT would move in an area and just move his hand twice. I'm not sure...., but that would be a weird scene. Whereas, ZBT standing still in the state of shock, waving his wands twice and seeing trees fall down, seems more reasonable. I don't know, but I just feel my interpretation is more reasonable and what Jin Yong intended it to be. I honestly have trouble imagining the way you imagined it.

Also, I really didn't find this one all by myself. CC seemed to be the first one that told me about this scene (though I needed to search where it was in the book). He once said that since even the likes of ZBT can cause trees to fall down by simply waving his hand(this scene), then Greats should logically be able to do LDA.

[Whsie]

Allow me to elaborate further Regarding this issue:

The problem with this inter-era comparison is that almost all LDAs launched in DGSD were to targets that DID NOT block, whereas almost all distance attacks launched in Condor Trilogy were to target that DID block. So, we don't know for sure whether DGSD LDAs would cause much damage if the opponents did block; and similarly we don't really know whether Condor LDAs would cause damage if the opponents did not block.

Let's look at the positively identified LDAs and LDS' in DGSD, and we can see how they were all performed on nonblocking opponents:

-Xiao Feng's LDA on Yun Zhonghe: Yun was running away and not blocking

-Xiao Feng's various LDA at Juxian Manor: mostly unblocked

-Li Qiushui's LDA on Xuzhu: unblocked

-Murong Bo's LDAs on Duan Zhengchun et al: caught them by surprise

-Sweeper Monk's LDS on Jiumozhi: unblocked, as far as we know

The only DGSD LDA which was confirmed to cause injury even if blocked, is Xiao Feng's triple-wave LDA on Ding Chunqiu.

NOW let's examine the known long distance strikes in Condor Trilogy which are positively identified as 1+ zhang:

-Hong Qigong's 1+ zhang XL18Z: it said that Guo Jing used the weapon to block

-Huodu's 1+ zhang strike: Yelu Qi countered

-Yideng vs GWM: both fought back

-Huang Yaoshi vs 7 Masters of Quanzhen: they fought back

-Mei Chaofeng vs Guo Jing: Mei tired him out

There is the 1 zhang strike that Yinggu of all people launched on Guo Xiang, which was described as injury-inducing. BUT that strike was intercepted prematurely, so we never saw its actual result. But we know it would most likely inflict damage on Guo Xiang from 1 zhang away.

Overall, Condor Trilogy's LD strikes were always countered by the opponent in some way, whereas most of the DGSD LDAs caught the opponent by surprise. It would be extremely interesting to see an example of what would happen in the case of nonblocking opponents in Condor Trilogy, and blocking opponents in DGSD.

For once, I seem to agree with you.

[PJ]

That wouldn't be the case for Yideng and JLFW because it's a totally different type of combat. Yideng and JLFW were using LDA at each other. It was LDA vs. LDA. Dunan vs. Yin Tianzheng was LDA vs. physical palm.

Yin Tianzheng was using LD strikes as well:
殷天正将右手圣火令交于左手，将渡难的黑索一压，右手一招劈空掌便向他击了过去。

That was from about 5 feet away, because:
当下拚得一掌，便向后退出半步，拚到十余掌后，已退到丈许之外。

1 palm = 0.5 steps. Assume 1 step = 1 foot, so 1 palm = 0.5 feet. He launched 10 palms (5 feet) and was 10 feet away. So the original distance must have been 5 feet (10 - 5).

Plus, Yin Tianzheng's energy isn't really only 1/2 of Dunan because Yang Xiao wasn't helping at all internally. Though Yang Xiao likely did distract a portion of the internal, but I doubt it was anything more than 3/4th of Dunan's internal. So in reality, the palm energy clash was closer. The other thing that you have to consider is that JLFW's palm energy has a total advantage against the small finger energies in terms of power; therefore, a bog down in exchanges like that is unwise for Yideng (which I explained multiple times...... ).

What?

Recall how Wei Yixiao got almost knocked out just by touching a piece of paper from Duwei. The Du monks' internal energy superiority over Ming Cult Guardian Lords was ridiculously great.

Please, Palm energy doesn't have a total advantage over small finger energy. Huang Yaoshi's finger wind dissipated Yang Guo's (more powerful, may I add) Sad Palms just fine.

In addition, the reason why Yideng was feeling the fatigue was not due to the stress felt like how Yin Tianzheng felt, but instead it was due to the energy eater aspect of the Solitary Yang Finger. As ZBT once said in LOCH to GJ, when Wang Chongyang used Solitary Yang Finger, all his energy was drained because the art quite literally eats up someone's energy. Now, with that in mind, also add in LDA for the 90 years old monk. OF COURSE he would feel the fatigue.

OK.