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Thread: More Condor Trilogy skepticism

  1. #121
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whsie View Post
    For once, I seem to agree with you.
    we better agree there, because what I summarized were unmistakable facts
    Last edited by PJ; 08-23-07 at 12:09 AM.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whsie View Post
    Either way we look at it, I don't really think there is any reason for ZBT to start moving again.
    He would have to move under the condition that trees were somewhat far away, and he can't knock them down from say 20 feet away. There's just not enough information to say what exactly was the spatial environment.

    Even after a state of shock, he wanted to test out his powers and I don't think moving around would really test his power.
    Plus, based on your imagination, ZBT would move in an area and just move his hand twice. I'm not sure...., but that would be a weird scene.
    For me, I imagine trees lined up one after another on one side of the road, and Zhou was firing at several trees which were lined up as such. If trees were closely lined up, he wouldn't have to run, just move forward a little bit.

    Also there's the possibility that he actually went up against the trees physically to knock them down. Again if trees were small, he wouldn't need to move much to get to the next tree. We just don't know for sure.

    You must recall that in DGSD, Murong Bo demonstrated the ability to PHYSICALLY knock down a tree branch by punching the tree, and the Shaolin monks were amazed. #1 Murong Bo didn't knock down a whole tree, #2 Murong Bo used physical contact. If LOCH Zhou Botong could casually knock down a tree from a distance of 10+ feet, then that would make Murong Bo's feat look like child's play.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Yin Tianzheng was using LD strikes as well:
    殷天正将右手圣火令交于左手,将渡难的黑索一压,右手一招劈空掌便向他击了过去。

    That was from about 5 feet away, because:
    当下拚得一掌,便向后退出半步,拚到十余掌后,已退到丈许之外。

    1 palm = 0.5 steps. Assume 1 step = 1 foot, so 1 palm = 0.5 feet. He launched 10 palms (5 feet) and was 10 feet away. So the original distance must have been 5 feet (10 - 5).



    What?

    Recall how Wei Yixiao got almost knocked out just by touching a piece of paper from Duwei. The Du monks' internal energy superiority over Ming Cult Guardian Lords was ridiculously great.

    Please, Palm energy doesn't have a total advantage over small finger energy. Huang Yaoshi's finger wind dissipated Yang Guo's (more powerful, may I add) Sad Palms just fine.



    OK.
    Actually, the distance remained consistently about 12/13 feet. At the beginning of the battle, it was described as, "斗到一顿饭时分,张无忌等三人已将索圈压得缩小了丈许圆径。然而三僧的索圈压小,抗力越强,三人每攻前一步,便比前要多花几倍力气。杨逍与殷天正越斗越是骇异,起初 尚是以三敌三的局面,到得半个时辰之后,杨殷二人渐渐支持不住,成为二人合斗渡难。张无忌却是一人对付渡厄 、渡劫二僧。". It seems from this passage after the very initial exchanges, the circle closed to about 10 feet. After this circle was closed in to 10 feet, it became a ZWJ vs. 2 Du Zen Master and YTZ/YX vs. Dunan. At this point, the next part was described as, "殷天正凝神提气,一掌掌的拍出,忽而跨前两步,忽而又倒退两步。" In each exchange, Yin Tian Zheng takes 2 steps forward, but was immediately forced back 2 steps from the resulting energy remaining; therefore the distance didn't change and remained at 10 feet. After a while of combat near to the end of the battle, your description comes up. So...., I'm not sure what to say. I'm personally taking it as Yin Tian Zheng being repelled into the outer part of 丈许. The whole part said, "拚到十余掌后,已退到丈许之外" So at the beginning of the battle, the distance was about 11/12 feet. After all that fight, it said outside of zhangxu. So I take it as probably 17/19 feet later.

    Yin Tian Zheng using LDA seems to be only the beginning of the battle (much like how Huodu used an 10 feet LDA to start the battle with YLQ). First it was as you said, he used a LDA that seems to be 10 feet (as I mentioned earlier, they roughly started the hardcore combat at a 10 feet range), then Dunan used Semuru Mountain Palm 陡然之间,殷天正将右手圣火令交于左手,将渡难的黑索一压,右手一招劈空掌便向他击了过去。渡难左手一起, 五指虚抓,握成空拳,也是一掌劈出。 空闻、空智等一齐“噫”了一声,声音中充满了惊讶佩服之情。原来渡难还他这一掌,乃是少林七十二绝艺中之一 的“须弥山掌”。 So based on this, it seems Dunan didn't use Semuru until Yin Tian Zheng started the palm exchange. And after this, it never mentioned Yin Tian Zheng using Pi Kong Palm again and I look at it as LDA vs. physical palm. Each time Dunan used an LDA, Yin Tian Zheng would match it head on and be repelled back 2 steps. Then he would take 2 steps forward and then be repelled again 2 steps backward.

    A few matters. 1. Yin Tian Zheng's internal was superior to Wei Yi Xiao's. I think it was mentioned somewhere that YTZ's internal was the strongest of the 4 Lords (though I don't remember where...). 2. Wei Yi Xiao wasn't prepared at all for the internal Duwei sent over. The novel said, "他大惊之下,急忙运功支撑。". This is probably the biggest difference as Yin Tian Zheng was constantly using 100% of his energy compared to Wei Yi Xiao's 0-5%. 3. Duwei is the strongest out of 3. 4. The analysis of Dunan= YX/YTZ is flawed as YX was using a wide variety of techniques. Later, it said, "但不论杨逍如何变招,渡难一条黑索分敌二人,仍是丝毫不落下风。众人只见殷天正头上白雾升起,知他内力已 发挥到了极致,一件白布长袍慢慢鼓起,衣内充满了气流。" This quote gives me the impression that Yang Xiao wasn't using anywhere close to his full potential internally (in comparison to YTZ's case of an air rising on top of his head) and the full group didn't mention Yang Xiao was using full internal. To me, Dunan was using about 30% of his internal to handle the variety of weaponry attacks coming his way. The remaining 65%-70% is used onto YTZ who was fighting his life out. In the end, the palm energy difference based on Dunan % should be less than 10%, which is reasonable for the push effect.

    Not in the case of HYS and YG because JY said Divine Snap equal to Sad Palm(so it's not stronger); however, Jin Yong on the other hand said JLFW's palm energy>Yideng's finger energy. There is a difference. Furthermore, Jin Yong further wrote that JLFW's palm energy was something that ZBT never seen. I doubt ZBT would feel the same about Yideng's finger energy as the purpose of Yideng's finger energy is a combination of speed/power, not raw power.
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出“一阳指”功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的“一阳指”功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    He would have to move under the condition that trees were somewhat far away, and he can't knock them down from say 20 feet away. There's just not enough information to say what exactly was the spatial environment.



    For me, I imagine trees lined up one after another on one side of the road, and Zhou was firing at several trees which were lined up as such. If trees were closely lined up, he wouldn't have to run, just move forward a little bit.

    Also there's the possibility that he actually went up against the trees physically to knock them down. Again if trees were small, he wouldn't need to move much to get to the next tree. We just don't know for sure.

    You must recall that in DGSD, Murong Bo demonstrated the ability to PHYSICALLY knock down a tree branch by punching the tree, and the Shaolin monks were amazed. #1 Murong Bo didn't knock down a whole tree, #2 Murong Bo used physical contact. If LOCH Zhou Botong could casually knock down a tree from a distance of 10+ feet, then that would make Murong Bo's feat look like child's play.
    I'm not saying the distance is like 20 feet away, but it's reasonable to say it could be 7/8 feet away because I imagine Peach Island as a place where there is trees all around on the island and all the trees can't be literally within a few feet away from ZBT. Therefore in the case of ZBT, there were trees all around him. Granted, it's smaller trees, but hey, he knocked several of them down. The difference in the case is HYS' trees are likely smaller; however, the feats do seem kind of comparable based on what you told me (if MRB's tree is a big one). I don't remember that scene, mind telling me which chapter it is in? This feat also reminds me of ZWJ breaking a tree in half with the upper part traveling several zhang out with the inside bark heavily damaged (the Kong Dong people used the bark to see if it's really 7 Injury Fist) from 7 Injury Fist. The one problem is that we don't know how big the trees are.
    Last edited by Whsie; 08-23-07 at 12:52 AM.
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出“一阳指”功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的“一阳指”功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

  5. #125
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whsie View Post
    Actually, the distance remained consistently about 12/13 feet. At the beginning of the battle, it was described as, "斗到一顿饭时分,张无忌等三人已将索圈压得缩小了丈许圆径
    There could be multiple interpretations, but according to my interpretation, It says they reduced the diameter BY 1 zhang, not that they reduced the diameter TO 1 zhang. So the final distance is unknown.

    So based on this, it seems Dunan didn't use Semuru until Yin Tian Zheng started the palm exchange. And after this, it never mentioned Yin Tian Zheng using Pi Kong Palm again and I look at it as LDA vs. physical palm. Each time Dunan used an LDA, Yin Tian Zheng would match it head on and be repelled back 2 steps. Then he would take 2 steps forward and then be repelled again 2 steps backward.
    So you assumed Yin Tianzheng didn't continue to use LD strike b/c it didn't specifically say so, even though he started out using LD strike. May I ask, did it specifically say that Yideng continued to use LD strike? How come you don't assume that Yideng switched to physical, but you assume Yin Tianzheng did.

    A few matters. 1. Yin Tian Zheng's internal was superior to Wei Yi Xiao's.
    Maybe, but it shouldn't be too big of a gap.

    2. Wei Yi Xiao wasn't prepared at all for the internal Duwei sent over. The novel said, "他大惊之下,急忙运功支撑。".
    The surprise was due to his body being shocked by a thundering effect.

    Yin Tianzheng wasn't prepared either. He didn't know that Dunan's palm strikes would keep up its power even when it reached 1 zhang away.

    This is probably the biggest difference as Yin Tian Zheng was constantly using 100% of his energy compared to Wei Yi Xiao's 0-5%. 3. Duwei is the strongest out of 3. 4. The analysis of Dunan= YX/YTZ is flawed as YX was using a wide variety of techniques. Later, it said, "但不论杨逍如何变招,渡难一条黑索分敌二人,仍是丝毫不落下风。众人只见殷天正头上白雾升起,知他内力已 发挥到了极致,一件白布长袍慢慢鼓起,衣内充满了气流。" This quote gives me the impression that Yang Xiao wasn't using anywhere close to his full potential internally (in comparison to YTZ's case of an air rising on top of his head) and the full group didn't mention Yang Xiao was using full internal. To me, Dunan was using about 30% of his internal to handle the variety of weaponry attacks coming his way. The remaining 65%-70% is used onto YTZ who was fighting his life out. In the end, the palm energy difference based on Dunan % should be less than 10%, which is reasonable for the push effect.
    The numbers are debatable, but I think Dunan = 2x Yin Tianzheng, and Dunan used 90% of internal energy on Yin Tianzheng, so it's almost 200% of Yin Tianzheng's power. After all Yang Xiao did say 殷白眉独受内劲,时候长了只怕支持不住, so it sounds like he wasn't using up much of Dunan's internal power at all. Thus my estimate of Dunan using 90% internal energy on Yin Tianzheng.

    Not in the case of HYS and YG because JY said Divine Snap equal to Sad Palm(so it's not stronger);
    Oh ok, I thought you meant that finger styles in general are no match for palm styles, which I didn't agree with. But if you were referencing this specific case only, then I agree: GWM had a power advantage over Yideng.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  6. #126
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    Regarding the diameter of the Arhats Demon Taming circle:

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    There could be multiple interpretations, but according to my interpretation, It says they reduced the diameter BY 1 zhang, not that they reduced the diameter TO 1 zhang. So the final distance is unknown.
    I wrote something in the past which captured my thoughts in more depth, which I shall paste below:

    I interpret this a bit differently: Zhang Wuji et al had reduced the circle's diameter by 10 feet, not to 10 feet. Even if the circle's diameter was reduced to 10 feet, that is only the distance within the circle. I assume Zhang Wuji et al were outside the circle fighting, so that doesn't tell us about the distance between the fighters, which would make more sense now that the distance is unspecified, because Zhang Wuji (and Yideng and GWM) should be able to project his energy to greater distance than his 2 grandfather and Yang Xiao.

    Another thing I want to say is this: Jin Yong is not 100% consistent with his numbers across the novels. There must be thousands of quantatative descriptions throughout his 10+ novels, and it would be impossible to keep all of them consistent. If we wanted to, we can find evidence to go against any popular theory. For example, we can find evidence that Xiang Wentian of XAJH or Bai Zizai of XKX is as good as the Greats, due to the description of their feats. However I believe we should look for the MAJORITY of evidence, and for our discussion, I believe the majority of evidence supports the notion that DGSD elites are more powerful than the Greats. I'm sure there exists evidence to suggest that the Greats are equal to or better than DGSD elites, but those would be in the minority, and I consider those to be Jin Yong's inconsistencies.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whsie View Post
    I'm not saying the distance is like 20 feet away, but it's reasonable to say it could be 7/8 feet away because I imagine Peach Island as a place where there is trees all around on the island and all the trees can't be literally within a few feet away from ZBT. Therefore in the case of ZBT, there were trees all around him. Granted, it's smaller trees, but hey, he knocked several of them down. The difference in the case is HYS' trees are likely smaller; however, the feats do seem kind of comparable based on what you told me (if MRB's tree is a big one). I don't remember that scene, mind telling me which chapter it is in? This feat also reminds me of ZWJ breaking a tree in half with the upper part traveling several zhang out with the inside bark heavily damaged (the Kong Dong people used the bark to see if it's really 7 Injury Fist) from 7 Injury Fist. The one problem is that we don't know how big the trees are.
    The part with Murong Bo knocking down a tree branch is:

    慕容博嘿嘿一笑,身子微侧,一拳打向身旁大树,喀喇喇两声,树上两根粗大的树枝落了下来。他打的是树干,竟 将距他拳处丈许的两根树枝震落,实是神功非凡。

    Actually it didn't say that Murong Bo used physical contact. So if we make the assumption that Zhou Botong knocked down a tree from 8 feet away, we can say Murong Bo's distance may have been farther (since it wasn't specified).

    Just trying to keep the inter-novel feats as consistent as possible
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    There could be multiple interpretations, but according to my interpretation, It says they reduced the diameter BY 1 zhang, not that they reduced the diameter TO 1 zhang. So the final distance is unknown.



    So you assumed Yin Tianzheng didn't continue to use LD strike b/c it didn't specifically say so, even though he started out using LD strike. May I ask, did it specifically say that Yideng continued to use LD strike? How come you don't assume that Yideng switched to physical, but you assume Yin Tianzheng did.



    Maybe, but it shouldn't be too big of a gap.



    The surprise was due to his body being shocked by a thundering effect.

    Yin Tianzheng wasn't prepared either. He didn't know that Dunan's palm strikes would keep up its power even when it reached 1 zhang away.



    The numbers are debatable, but I think Dunan = 2x Yin Tianzheng, and Dunan used 90% of internal energy on Yin Tianzheng, so it's almost 200% of Yin Tianzheng's power. After all Yang Xiao did say 殷白眉独受内劲,时候长了只怕支持不住, so it sounds like he wasn't using up much of Dunan's internal power at all. Thus my estimate of Dunan using 90% internal energy on Yin Tianzheng.



    Oh ok, I thought you meant that finger styles in general are no match for palm styles, which I didn't agree with. But if you were referencing this specific case only, then I agree: GWM had a power advantage over Yideng.
    I looked to Yin Tian Zheng's case as a one time LDA become it was head to head fight (he was trying to advance as close as possible) in comparison to Yideng's constant dodging movement. Once YTZ used his LDA, he basically initiated the palm exchange and Dunan started using his Semuru Mountain Palm. As I said earlier, I interpreted this scene like how the QZ 6+Yin Pinzhi was trying to move in on HYS. The purpose was to get in closer, and therefore the receiver of the palm energy doesn't have to use LDA. They can use a physical palm energy to match the incoming LDA (and it would be wiser). Even if they were to use an LDA, it would be dissolved. So there is no point of the weaker side to use an LDA if it's HEAD to HEAD (which I repeat, is different from Yideng's case).

    At least Yin Tian Zheng was still in combat mode. Sure Yin Tian Zheng may not know how strong Dunan's energy was, but at least he wasn't going to be totally blown away because he was constantly fighting. On the other hand, Wei Yi Xiao was just there to show off his qing gong.

    When I first read it, I took it as Yin Tian Zheng taking in most of the internal because Yang Xiao's weaponry attacks should surely take more than 10% to repel. As the novel wrote, everyone was dazed by Yang Xiao's variety of attacks. If Yang Xiao is really only half of Dunan, then that means Yang Xiao is only applying 20% of his internal into the fight, which I don't see it as very reasonable.
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出“一阳指”功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的“一阳指”功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    The part with Murong Bo knocking down a tree branch is:

    慕容博嘿嘿一笑,身子微侧,一拳打向身旁大树,喀喇喇两声,树上两根粗大的树枝落了下来。他打的是树干,竟 将距他拳处丈许的两根树枝震落,实是神功非凡。

    Actually it didn't say that Murong Bo used physical contact. So if we make the assumption that Zhou Botong knocked down a tree from 8 feet away, we can say Murong Bo's distance may have been farther (since it wasn't specified).

    Just trying to keep the inter-novel feats as consistent as possible
    there is also this feat by ZWJ. Likewise, there was no mention of physical contact.

    张无忌高声吟罢,走上前去,砰的一拳击出,突然间眼前青翠晃动,大松树的上半截平平飞出,轰隆一响,摔在两 丈之外。地下只留了四尺来长的半截树干,切断处甚是平整。常敬之喃喃的道:“这……这可不是七伤拳啊!”七 伤拳讲究刚中有柔,柔中有刚,这震断大树的拳法虽然威力惊人,却显是纯刚之力。他走近一看,不由得张大了口 合不拢来,但见树干断处脉络尽皆震碎,正是七伤拳练到最深时的功夫。原来张无忌存心威压当场,倘若单以七伤 拳震碎树脉,须至十天半月之后,松树枯萎,才显功力,是以使出七伤拳劲力之后,跟着以阳刚猛劲 断树。
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出“一阳指”功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的“一阳指”功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whsie View Post
    I looked to Yin Tian Zheng's case as a one time LDA become it was head to head fight (he was trying to advance as close as possible) in comparison to Yideng's constant dodging movement. Once YTZ used his LDA, he basically initiated the palm exchange and Dunan started using his Semuru Mountain Palm. As I said earlier, I interpreted this scene like how the QZ 6+Yin Pinzhi was trying to move in on HYS. The purpose was to get in closer, and therefore the receiver of the palm energy doesn't have to use LDA. They can use a physical palm energy to match the incoming LDA (and it would be wiser). Even if they were to use an LDA, it would be dissolved. So there is no point of the weaker side to use an LDA if it's HEAD to HEAD (which I repeat, is different from Yideng's case).
    I could not disagree with you more.

    So, Yin Tianzheng vs Dunan is head-to-head, while Yideng vs GWM is dodging... even though Dunan's superiority over Yin Tianzheng is not any less proportionate than GWM's superiority over Yideng, and they both reached a range of 1 zhang, and it showed that Yin Tianzheng did not need to dodge the superior attack, and there was no evidence that he switched to physical palms instead of LD strike. And now you're saying that Dunan's LDA would be dissolved by Yin Tianzheng even though there's a gap in power (20% gap minimum), but somehow GWM's LDA would not be dissolved by Yideng's LDA, even though there's also a gap of about 20% (more or less). Sorry, but there's too much written evidence against your claim. The cases are basically the same with many similar attributes.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  11. #131
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    When I first read it, I took it as Yin Tian Zheng taking in most of the internal because Yang Xiao's weaponry attacks should surely take more than 10% to repel. As the novel wrote, everyone was dazed by Yang Xiao's variety of attacks. If Yang Xiao is really only half of Dunan, then that means Yang Xiao is only applying 20% of his internal into the fight, which I don't see it as very reasonable.
    The way it was described, Yang Xiao was competing technique while Yin Tianzheng pretty much took on the internal competition solo. Similar to Murong Fu + You Tanzhi vs Xiao Feng: Murong Fu competed technique while You Tanzhi competed internal energy.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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