Gu Long - The Flower Guarding Bell - has been published (please support!)

[chickenfeet]

Just an FYI at Wuxia fans here at spcnet.tv

As you guys all know, Yufeng has fully translated Gu Long's Hu Hua Ling (The Flower Guarding now) in wuxiasociety forum. After a hard work with Mawguy as the editor, the book has been published, you can purchase it online.

This is a message from Yufeng at Wuxiasociety.org

Please support more wuxia translation, by buying the books.

Hi everyone! xD
The Flower Guarding Bells book can be ordered now. It is slightly different from the translation here...Anyway here is the link (registeration link here) :wink:
http://www.lulu.com/content/1084412

As Mawguy and I are too poor to publish it ourselves, hehe, so we started from Lulu

You agree the illustration cover alone is a good temptation to order? I calculated the cost, compressed the book to bring it down from 800 pages to 442 pages @@ so that it could be affordable to everyone and finally introduced a English version of a Gu Long book to everyone...whew!
The first page

Simply clink view back cover to see the back and see preview to see the opening chapters. Well, the fonts are small as I tried to squeeze in as many lines of text as possible to compress it... ops:

Have fun all~

For more details go to http://wuxiasociety.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2059

[Daishikaze]

SOLD!

I'm buying that definitely, Thank you for letting us know

[mawguy]

just want to point out that all the credit goes to yufeng for his amazing work -- he is publishing his original manuscript. i have yet to do any editing.

[Bloodflowers]

Errr...

I like the idea, and might buy the book depending on how much it costs me (customs usually end up costing me around $60 USD for anything above $20 USD), but I have a question:

What about copyrights? I'm not a fan of things as they are, but aren't these guys making themselves liable?

LULU's FAQ page on the subject of international shipping vaguely mentions that they have a partner in Spain, but isn't very clear on something: If I were to order a book, would it be sent from Spain or from the US?

[Bloodflowers]

And one other thing: It isn't an "abridged" version, is it? (you mention "compressing" the book, hence the question).

[wandering]

lulu.com is a post on demand kinda publishing house.
I've ordered some books from them like ozy and millie comics..and it's pretty decent quality.

i would think if u live in the states..the book will shipped from the states...

[Bloodflowers]

My problem is that I live in the European Union, and import taxes are way too steep to afford buying books in small quantities.

I'll pay 5% over the value of the books + shipping (yes, 5% over the shipping) + some other taxes usually around 50 Euros.

So for a 20 Euros book (like this one) I'd pay around 70 Euros.


If I were to import from some other EU country I would only pay the value of the goods + shipping.

[atlantean0208]

Please confirm if this book published legally and no ISBN? What do you mean removing 400 pages, is that means compacting content or resizing font? The first GL english translation book published is Xiao Shiyi Lang - The Eleventh Son by Becky Tai. No way I'm going to buy a USD24.99 book if its pirated like those stupid narutards at the narutofan.com forum who were paying downloading a fansub version of naruto.

[chickenfeet]

I am not sure how the setup at Lulu.com is, since it's an independent small publishing house.

Perhaps you can ask Yufeng a question at wuxiasociety.org

this is the link to his announcement http://wuxiasociety.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2059

[CC]

I am curious too.

Who owns the rights to Gu Long's works? Some publishing house?

Did Yufeng get the rights to translate it?

[Han Solo]

Love to buy, but need confirmation of:-
1) International shipping to australia
2) Copyright reasons

Han Solo

[chickenfeet]

All your concerns have been addressed by Yufeng at wuxiasociety.org, unfortunately he doesn't have an account here

http://wuxiasociety.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2059

[fastclock]

I'm not affiliated with Yufeng nor Gu Long's descendants nor anyone else... so just as an independent observer, a couple of points:

- Not one person in this forum probably really knows the black and white of the copyrights and the ISBN requirements and the customs and the tax and other things. While they are good and valid concerns, there is really no need to bash anyone nor to put anyone in the corner. On top of it, painting the translator as a greedy irresponsible person is also not a very nice behavior.

- While I don't necessarily agree with his approach, Yufeng is really attempting his best to get the copyrights and the ISBN completed. He raises some issues, which some of you were familiar with, from Rebecca Tai's translations: re. who owns the original copyrights (family vs. publisher), and the translator's copyright (himself vs. publisher) and why ISBN is not necessarily a good thing.

- If you think you know the answers to all of these questions, you can certainly suggest the way to proceed nicely and constructively to him through the wuxiasociety.org forum instead of acting as a judge.

- Rebecca Tai decided to blaze the trail of Gu Long's translations via a publisher. Now Yufeng is trying to blaze the trail of Gu Long's translations as his own publisher (which should be a more repeatable process). I would cut him some leeway with this process, especially if it leads to more publications of Gu Long's works in English in the future.

- If you have concerns, you don't really need to buy the book. You might think it would "make or break" the translator's or Gu Long's family or the publisher's life, but really I don't think selling wuxia translations book will be able to support someone's life especially with a family. If someone has a connection to Homa & Sekey (Rebecca Tai's publisher) and asks whether they plan to continue publishing wuxia novels, the answer is most probably NO. They haven't published any other Gu Long's works, and they would have aggressively pursued this if it was a smashing profitable venture. Without any "bold" move to break this doldrum it's probably going to stay this way, until wuxia story becomes forgotten in a few decades.

[Han Solo]

FWIW, I just ordered the book through the website.

I'm all for supporting translators, morally and financially.


Some response to fastclock's:-

1) Some of us in the forum works in a publishing house i.e. ppl like flyingfox.

2) The right to raise concerns regarding copyright issues is correct. Becky Tai works through the correct rights holder, and ideally, all published translations should too.

3) Everyone here is pretty nice in this thread. I know there was a nickname of Garrett at wuxiasociety thread (but i have no idea who he is).

4) Sure, if it leads to more published translations, however, as i posted above, i do feel that if we can get a sanctioned, copyrightted translations, it would be the best for everyone involved.

Han Solo

[kidd]

It's natural for a potential buyer or friends and acquaintance of Yufeng to have concern about copyright issue. Potential buyers would fear that product they buy is illegal while the friends of Yufeng might fear that Yufeng might get in trouble with the law. But garrett850 is being just too much, implying very unsubtly that Yufeng is doing it for money. He can voice his concern unaccusingly, but s/he choose to again and again imply that Yufeng is greedy, making money he didn't deserve, stealing from GL's decesdants etc etc.

I agree with fastclock. S/he has the choice to not buy the book if s/he is concern that her/his USD 24.99 is not well spent. s/he alone won't break or make Yufeng, GL's decesdant and publisher. S/he can just read Yufeng's translation for free. It's still up in wuxiasociety. Or better still, learn to read chinese. Then s/he won't need to depend on 'lousy' translation that hasn't gone through 'a proper publishing company editor, getting the approval'.

And using his/her post counts in spcnet to justify himself/herself pulak. Like post counts = weight in arguement.

[fastclock]

If someone knows the exact procedure on what to follow to publish a translated wuxia novels, can he/she post it here? I have no interest in actually publishing my stuff, but I'm curious to see what are the main steps, and who to contact.

Han Solo, you are always courteous in your query, so obviously I was not targeting you. You said Rebecca Tai did the correct copyrighting path, and I have no doubt she did. But can you tell me who she contacted from Gu Long's side? Who holds the translated copyright, is it the publisher? Can the translator avoid transferring the copyright to the publisher?

I think it's a really good point to raise about copyrights issue, and like I said, if this is something that has been done before properly, I don't see why this still seems unclear on who to contact or how to go about it. Maybe it's better to the "enlightened person" to write it here so everyone is clear about it.

In the real world, a fan translation work is never legal. The real author can choose to ban the translations from being posted on the website (see JKRowling on the French translation of Deathly Hallows). If you guys are really that concerned about the copyrights, the whole wuxia translations section of this forum is really under the same question mark. So, choose which pill you want to swallow...

The difference between JKR and Gu Long at this point is obvious though. One has the price tag of millions (or billions) of dollars. Gu Long's works? Not so much...

[atlantean0208]

DISCLAIMER: This post is not my comment about YUFENG publishing a book but my general opinion on the wuxia fansub activity on SPCNET only, so please understand, its only my 2 cents.

This is what the practice is done in anime fansub:

The animesuki way:
1) Distribute fansub as long as no licence for official english translation claimed by the big name: ADV, Geneon etc.
2) Stop distributing once licensed is acquired

The I-don't-care way:
1) Just fansub and distribute anything out from Japan tv.
2) Even with cease-and-desist letter, still distribute through private IRC, and let the P2P do the rest

Why the japanese doesn't care about fansub:
1) Because there are to lazy to do the fansub themselves
2) Fansub is not for sale, unless some greedy/opportunist bastard selling them on ebay or bastard like Tazmo from narutofan.com who collecting fansub from P2P and putting them in a server and ask other naive and noobies netters to pay subscription for direct download, something that can be done without a dime and passion and google - details: http://www.mangaupdates.com/stopnf.png

So why JY and GL doesn't send cease-and-desist letter to SPCNET? its all the same, no one claimed official english copyright translation to their novels and no one selling the translation without approval.

Its happen before with XYSL fansub on SPCNET, which was taken down because an official english translation available. Because it is very clear that you cannot sell a book if reader can find ways to read it for free.

So IMHO, wuxia fansubs on SPCNET are still safe because no publishing house claimed an english translation for it. Well unless if you put the original chinese text online then you're going to have big problem. The magic word here is all about MONEY, as long as MONEY not involve, than there is nothing to worry, its all free publicity to GL and JY books.

With all the efforts of english translation in SPCNET (ROCH/LOCH/SPW etc.), maybe someday all of these books will eventually be published legally and officially, so its all money going to JY/GL, so I can't see why they want to stop the activity of fan translation, well unless if you're going to sell it.

[Han Solo]

If someone knows the exact procedure on what to follow to publish a translated wuxia novels, can he/she post it here? I have no interest in actually publishing my stuff, but I'm curious to see what are the main steps, and who to contact.

Han Solo, you are always courteous in your query, so obviously I was not targeting you. You said Rebecca Tai did the correct copyrighting path, and I have no doubt she did. But can you tell me who she contacted from Gu Long's side? Who holds the translated copyright, is it the publisher? Can the translator avoid transferring the copyright to the publisher?

I think it's a really good point to raise about copyrights issue, and like I said, if this is something that has been done before properly, I don't see why this still seems unclear on who to contact or how to go about it. Maybe it's better to the "enlightened person" to write it here so everyone is clear about it.

In the real world, a fan translation work is never legal. The real author can choose to ban the translations from being posted on the website (see JKRowling on the French translation of Deathly Hallows). If you guys are really that concerned about the copyrights, the whole wuxia translations section of this forum is really under the same question mark. So, choose which pill you want to swallow...

The difference between JKR and Gu Long at this point is obvious though. One has the price tag of millions (or billions) of dollars. Gu Long's works? Not so much...

Hi fastclock,

I don't think that i'm the best person to ask about Becky Tai's journey to get a copyright approval.

She somehow predates me in the old cinple wuxia forum, and ppl like TigerWong or Ken Cheng may have more details or personal knowledge.

As far as i know though, she eventually negotiated the copyrights from a Taiwanese copyright holder (which is not the GL estate), and that's when she published her book. Of course, i think that she took about half a year to resolve the legal matter.

Thanks,
Han Solo
P/s: I'm going to pm flyingfox who i believe works in a publishing industry to come here to clarify for us about copyrights of a translator.

[Han Solo]

Flyingfox's response:-

As for the translation. I no longer work in publishing, nor did my former job entail dealing with copyright. I do know that if JY was an American author, then selling his translation would be illegal since he would have sold his translation rights to a publisher. However, since his work is in Chinese, I don't really know whether he has sold translation rights to anyone or what the Chinese law regarding copyright for domestic work is.

[Bloodflowers]

The fact that Jin Yong and Gu Long are not american authors, doesn't mean they don't have any rights to their works in other countries.

From what I understand of US copyright law, if you don't transfer nor license your rights to someone else then they have no right to sell, use or make derivative works based on your work.

A translation would be considered a derivative work.

from wikipedia:

In the United States, copyright has been made automatic (in the style of the Berne Convention) since March 1, 1989, which has had the effect of making it appear to be more like a property right. Thus, as with some forms of personal property, a copyright need not be granted or obtained through official registration with any government office. Once an idea has been reduced to tangible form, for example by securing it in a fixed medium (such as a drawing, sheet music, photograph, a videotape or a letter), the copyright holder is entitled to enforce his or her exclusive rights.

Several exclusive rights typically attach to the holder of a copyright:

* to produce copies or reproductions of the work and to sell those copies (including, typically, electronic copies)
* to import or export the work
* to create derivative works (works that adapt the original work)
* to perform or display the work publicly
* to sell or assign these rights to others
* to transmit or display by means of digital audio transmission (XM Satellite Radio, Sirius)

The phrase "exclusive right" means that only the copyright holder is free to exercise the attendant rights, and others are prohibited using the work without the consent of the copyright holder.

The reason why most fansubbing/scanlation/scanlation efforts are apparently allowed by the copyright holders is because most of the time there is both considerable expense and little to gain from lawsuits, and the aditional exposure can help promoting the "legitimate product".

Once you start selling your work you are making an illicit profit (for you have no right to do so). Even if you claim you are only covering your expenses, you still have no right to sell it.

Disclaimer: IANAEICLBIRS (I Am Not An Expert In Copyright Law But I Read Slashdot )