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Thread: Did the Tse Hiu Fung/Yin 13 duel engender as much excitement as the SMCS/YGS duel?

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default Did the Tse Hiu Fung/Yin 13 duel engender as much excitement as the SMCS/YGS duel?

    To hear the Gu Long experts of the forum tell it, Tse Hiu Fung and Yin 13 of THIRD YOUNG MASTER'S SWORD attained a level of swordsmanship far beyond that of even Sai Mun Chui Sheut and Yip Goo Sing in LUK SIU FUNG. We all know how much anticipation and excitement the SMCS/YGS duel engendered throughout wulin in LUK SIU FUNG. Was there a similar level of intrigue and anticipation leading up to the Tse Hiu Fung/Yin 13 duel?

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    Because of Gu Long's writing style, which places far less emphasis on "wuxia math" as CC called it, it's really hard to tell which pair of pugilists were on a higher level. I guess the Wuxia nerds get their panties wetter from the description of Yin 13's final sword which really was more hype than truth. I don't see how anyone can think GL was serious when he described Yin 13's sword as capable of destroying the world. In terms of anticipation, the SMCS/YGS duel might have generated more excitement since it occured at the Imperial Palace while the other duel seemed to be more private.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi View Post
    Because of Gu Long's writing style, which places far less emphasis on "wuxia math" as CC called it, it's really hard to tell which pair of pugilists were on a higher level. I guess the Wuxia nerds get their panties wetter from the description of Yin 13's final sword which really was more hype than truth. I don't see how anyone can think GL was serious when he described Yin 13's sword as capable of destroying the world.
    Yeah. Wuxia jumps the shark for me when the writers start describing martial artists and their abilities in those terms (if they do that, how much better are they than the "hack TVB writers" who depict martial arts with exploding rocks and smoke bombs?). Wuxia martial arts should be awesome, but within the context of what is at least somewhat believable in terms of martial arts, not powers associated with divine beings or superheroes. Certain concepts just don't fit the wuxia mold very well.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Well, Lu Xiaofeng series was written AFTER Third Master. If Gu Long intended people in Lu Xiaofeng series to be stronger than the top people in Third Master, he would have simply made the descriptions in Lu Xiaofeng series more fantastical. But he didn't, so we should go by the standard logic that more fantastical description = more powerful feat.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Well, Lu Xiaofeng series was written AFTER Third Master. If Gu Long intended people in Lu Xiaofeng series to be stronger than the top people in Third Master, he would have simply made the descriptions in Lu Xiaofeng series more fantastical. But he didn't, so we should go by the standard logic that more fantastical description = more powerful feat.
    This is Gu Long, I think the martial descriptions are a distant consideration compared to his story telling. The Lu Xiaofeng stories seemed to be focused more on mystery and human nature then martial arts compared to the Third Master story, so I guess the martial imagery takes a back seat.

    Besides, I always felt that he intended Li Xunhuan to be the strongest but he never did write about his dagger with such fantastic imagery.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

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    Oh, to answer Ken's question.

    No, because no one was betting MONEY on it.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

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    Senior Member Ian Liew's Avatar
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    While Y13 and XXF had a duel to really decide who was better, the original intention of the XMCS/YGC duel was mainly to generate wulin interest to watch the duel in the first place - as YGC was the one who initiated the duel, and all he wanted was a diversion. No expense was spared to "market" the duel so that everybody under the sun would have tried their best to turn up and force Wei Zhiyun to move all the Brocaded Guards to the Taihedian/Fengtiandian. It's probably also safe to say that YGC had no intention whatsoever of actually fighting XMCS as the duel was planned to be called off and after that YGC would have ceased to exist and would be no longer traceable - it was the biggest scam, and its existence was purely for PR. I don't think any other duel would have generated as much wulin interest ever.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    This is Gu Long, I think the martial descriptions are a distant consideration compared to his story telling. The Lu Xiaofeng stories seemed to be focused more on mystery and human nature then martial arts compared to the Third Master story, so I guess the martial imagery takes a back seat.

    Besides, I always felt that he intended Li Xunhuan to be the strongest but he never did write about his dagger with such fantastic imagery.
    I still think it's safest to assume that strongest description = strongest feat.
    Li Xunhuan isn't even on par with Shangguan Jinhong yet.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    I still think it's safest to assume that strongest description = strongest feat.
    Li Xunhuan isn't even on par with Shangguan Jinhong yet.
    GL did say that even if LXh fought SGJH again, LXH would still win. You got to remember in GL's world, martial arts ability along isn't enough to garner victory. Although JY's battle descriptions are more real, GL actually seems to have a better grasp of how the outcome of a battle is decided.

    Also, LXH reached a far higher level than SGJH ever reached, judging from what we saw of Ah Fei and Jing Wumin 20 years later. There're also many other examples of GL placing LXH on a higher pedestal than anyone else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi View Post
    Also, LXH reached a far higher level than SGJH ever reached, judging from what we saw of Ah Fei and Jing Wumin 20 years later. There're also many other examples of GL placing LXH on a higher pedestal than anyone else.
    We never how much LXH improved 20 years later because he never appeared in any other novel after Sentimental Swords, Ruthless Sword. We did however see how much more powerful Ah Fei became in Bordertown Wanderer.
    Yo momma cat

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    Quote Originally Posted by minutemanwayne View Post
    We never how much LXH improved 20 years later because he never appeared in any other novel after Sentimental Swords, Ruthless Sword. We did however see how much more powerful Ah Fei became in Bordertown Wanderer.
    Yes, but in that book, there was a long Jin Wuming lecture on why LXH will prevail over everyone else because his heart of gold and dagger which saves lives can never lose. That hints that in Jin's mind, LXH was always invincible.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

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    Senior Member mawguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    We all know how much anticipation and excitement the SMCS/YGS duel engendered throughout wulin in LUK SIU FUNG. Was there a similar level of intrigue and anticipation leading up to the Tse Hiu Fung/Yin 13 duel?
    there was for me, while reading the book. :P i rather missed the sidelines commentary, though. *rolleyes*

    no, as others pointed out, this was a private affair, not a circus, so naturally, it ddn't garner as much hype. as for the supernatural-ness of it all, well, it's GL, right? and by the 7th LXF book, XMCX did attain a similar level of swordsmanship, although i really question the book itself -- seems GL went through another change in style; i got the same feeling reading CLX7.
    nostalgic for wuxiasociety? http://wuxiasociety.freeforums.net/

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    Yes, but in that book, there was a long Jin Wuming lecture on why LXH will prevail over everyone else because his heart of gold and dagger which saves lives can never lose. That hints that in Jin's mind, LXH was always invincible.
    That lecture is a high dose of moral propaganda, but it falls short on practicality.

      荆无命道:"他们交手时,只有我一个人是亲眼看见的,我看得出他的武功,实在不如上官金虹,我一直不懂 ,他怎么会战胜的。"他慢慢地接着道:"但现在我已了解,一件兵器的真正价值,并不在它的本身,而在于它做 的事。"叶开承认。
      荆无命道:"李寻欢能杀上官金虹,只因为他并不是为了想杀人而出手的,他做的事,上可无愧于天下,下则 无愧于人。"一个人若为了公道和正义而战,就绝不会败。

    So basically, Jin Wuming said: "Yeah yeah, Li Xunhuan was really inferior to Shangguan Jinhong... BUT, since he had good intentions, so he defeated the stronger opponent."

    He makes it sound as if anyone who fights for righteousness will triumph, b/c good always trumps evil. How realistic is that? If I also fight for righteousness, would I defeat Shangguan Jinhong?

    So in fact:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi
    Also, LXH reached a far higher level than SGJH ever reached, judging from what we saw of Ah Fei and Jing Wumin 20 years later. There're also many other examples of GL placing LXH on a higher pedestal than anyone else.
    Jin Wuming was talking about Li Xuanhuan's superiority from a MORAL angle. That Li Xunhuan can defeat everyone just b/c he has a good heart doesn't seem very logical to me.
    Last edited by PJ; 09-05-07 at 10:48 AM.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by minutemanwayne View Post
    We never how much LXH improved 20 years later because he never appeared in any other novel after Sentimental Swords, Ruthless Sword. We did however see how much more powerful Ah Fei became in Bordertown Wanderer.
    From what Ah Fei and Jin Wuming said, it's implied that he's still slightly stronger than them. Do you need Gu Long to tell you that LXH can hit any target from 30 zhen with his off hand while eating a barbecue pork bun with the other to know how good LXH really is? And then we'll compare the distance of LXH's attack to all the other long distance attacks to confirm our appraisal of LXH's abilities? LXH didn't appear again because GL was smart enough to know that the more you see a legend in action, the less legendary he becomes. All we know about LXH's later years is that he accomplished deeds that were far great than the defeat of SGJH.

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    That lecture is a high dose of moral propaganda, but it falls short on practicality.

      荆无命道:"他们交手时,只有我一个人是亲眼看见的,我看得出他的武功,实在不如上官金虹,我一直不懂 ,他怎么会战胜的。"他慢慢地接着道:"但现在我已了解,一件兵器的真正价值,并不在它的本身,而在于它做 的事。"叶开承认。
      荆无命道:"李寻欢能杀上官金虹,只因为他并不是为了想杀人而出手的,他做的事,上可无愧于天下,下则 无愧于人。"一个人若为了公道和正义而战,就绝不会败。

    So basically, Jin Wuming said: "Yeah yeah, Li Xunhuan was really inferior to Shangguan Jinhong... BUT, since he had good intentions, so he defeated the stronger opponent."

    He makes it sound as if anyone who fights for righteousness will triumph, b/c good always trumps evil. How realistic is that? If I also fight for righteousness, would I defeat Shangguan Jinhong?

    That is realistic for LXH. It's not realistic for you to beat SGJH, even with a sense of righteousness, because you don't have the skills of LXH. It's realistic that LXH was able to win because the gap between LXH and SGJH wasn't that big. Otherwise, SGJH wouldn't have needed JWM in the final battle as a backup. In the real world, battles and athletic competitions are often won by the people with lesser talent and abilities. There have been wars won by much smaller armies with inferior weapons because the victors had stronger desires to fight than their enemies. Wuxia battles in which the more powerful guy always wins are actually quite unrealistic. Luckily, GL was wise enough to recognize the importance of factors in a battle other than proficiencies in martial arts.
    Last edited by Wu Wudi; 09-05-07 at 02:51 PM.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi View Post
    That is realistic for LXH. It's not realistic for you to beat SGJH, even with a sense of righteousness, because you don't have the skills of LXH.
    That's not what Gu Long wrote, which is: 一个人若为了公道和正义而战,就绝不会败。
    I am 一个人, aren't I? If you insist on me not qualifying as 一个人, that would contradict the novel statement, which means the passage is nothing but abstract wishful thinking, which means it has no practical credibility.

    And: 李寻欢能杀上官金虹,只因为他并不是为了想杀人而出手的 (ONLY BECAUSE...)

    To be realistic, Shangguan Jinhong was NOT fighting at his peak ability whereas Li Xunhuan was. If they both fight at their peak ability, Li Xunhuan would have lost.

    It's realistic that LXH was able to win because the gap between LXH and SGJH wasn't that big. Otherwise, SGJH wouldn't have needed JWM in the final battle as a backup. In the real world, battles and athletic competitions are often won by the people with lesser talent and abilities. There have been wars won by much smaller armies with inferior weapons because the victors had stronger desires to fight than their enemies. Wuxia battles in which the more powerful guy always wins are actually quite unrealistic. Luckily, GL was wise enough to recognize the importance of factors in a battle other than proficiencies in martial arts.
    Your real world examples constitute a small percentage of the entire picture. Most of the time, the stronger one still wins. That said, I have no real problem with MWPDSO: Making Weaker People Defeat Stronger Opponents. The problem is when Gu Long makes Little Li Flying Dagger Li Xunhuan sound invincible strictly because Li is on the good side (stated in the novel). Furthermore he goes on to say that ANYONE who is on the good side will NEVER lose. While it makes a good moral speech, I don't see it becoming true any time soon.

    I would not object if Gu Long had said: 一个人若为了公道和正义而战,就绝不会败 in people's heart or something like that. But Gu Long actually meant that he would never lose in reality, which is children's fable.
    Last edited by PJ; 09-05-07 at 01:48 PM.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    PJ, you should know that you can't read Chinese literally. You mean to tell me, that when they say the "ability to destroy Heaven and Earth", they literally mean that a martial artist has just as much as power as a nuclear bomb. What was written by Gu Long sure sounds a lot better than "if someone is at least as powerful as LXH, then combined with a strong sense of justice, that person would have no problems beating someone a little bit more powerful like SGJH". That kind of precise writing would completely destroy the artistic beauty of Wuxia novel, IMO.

    In terms of real world examples of the weaker contestant winning, all you have to do is watch sports to see huge upsets every year. They happen much more often than you think which is why I don't believe that having more powerful martial arts alone would garner a victory.

    Also, keep in mind that SGJH had a serious charcter flaw which LXH was able to exploit. Who's to say that it wouldn't be exploited again if somehow they had met again? Look at GJ and ZWJ. They never did learn to stop being kind even though their kindnesses got them in trouble so many times.
    Last edited by Wu Wudi; 09-05-07 at 02:54 PM.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    I'm saying that Gu Long is giving too much credit to LITTLE LI FLYING DAGGER Li Xunhuan for being on the good side. A lot of people have been on the good side, but only LITTLE LI FLYING DAGGER Li Xunhuan gets the special privilege of being called invincible precisely because he is on the good side. Gu Long crossed the line when he said 一个人若为了公道和正义而战,就绝不会败。

    I'm fine with this:
      荆无命盯着他,过了很久,忽然叹息一声。
      叶开觉得很吃惊,他从未想到这个人居然也有叹息的时候。
      荆无命缓缓道:"我己有多年来曾见到李寻欢了,我一直都在找他。"他的声音突然提高,又道:"因为我还 想找他比一比,究竟是他的刀快,还是我的剑快!"叶开听着,只有听着。
      荆无命竞又叹息一声,道:"但现在我却已改变了主意,你可知道是为了什么?"叶开当然不知 道。
      荆无命道,"是因为你。"
      叶开又很意外:"因为我?"
      荆无命道:"看见了你,我才知道我是比不上李寻欢的。"他冷漠的声音竟似变得有些伤感,过了很久,才接 着道:"路小佳只懂得杀人,可是你你刚才出手三次,却都是为了救人的命!"刀本是用来杀人的 。
      懂得用刀杀人并不困难,要懂得如何用刀救人,才是件困难的事。叶开想不到荆无命居然也懂得 这道理。

    And this:
      荆无命道:"李寻欢能杀了上官金虹,并不是因为他的武功,而是因为他的信心。"李寻欢一直相信正义必定 战胜邪恶,公道必定常在人间。
      所以他胜了。
      荆无命道:"他们交手时,只有我一个人是亲眼看见的,我看得出他的武功,实在不如上官金虹,我一直不懂 ,他怎么会战胜的。"他慢慢地接着道:"但现在我已了解,一件兵器的真正价值,并不在它的本身,而在于它做 的事。"叶开承认。

    But not this:
      荆无命道:"李寻欢能杀上官金虹,只因为他并不是为了想杀人而出手的,他做的事,上可无愧于天下,下则 无愧于人。"一个人若为了公道和正义而战,就绝不会败。
      荆无命道:"百晓生若也懂得这道理,他就该将李寻欢的刀列为天下第一。"叶开看着他,突然对这个难以了 解的人,生出种说不出的尊敬之意。无论谁能懂得这道理,都应该受到尊敬。

    This is OK too:
      荆无命也在凝视着他,缓缓道:"所以现在若有人再作兵器谱,就应该将你的刀列为天下第一,因为你刚才做 的事,是任何人都做不到的。所以你这柄刀的价值,也绝没有任何兵器能比得上!"一阵风吹过,荆无命的人已消 失在风里。

    Jin Wuming's logic was that because LITTLE LI FLYING DAGGER Li Xunhuan and Ye Kai are on the good side, their weapons have the highest moral value (一件兵器的真正价值). Therefore, they should be ranked #1 --> I'm fine with his logic up to this point, but he crossed the line when he/Gu Long said that LITTLE LI FLYING DAGGER Li Xunhuan can basically defeat EVERYBODY because he's on the good side.

    Besides, what if LITTLE LI FLYING DAGGER Li Xunhuan were to face another opponent who is 为了公道和正义而战? Surely that is a possible scenario. Who will win then?
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi View Post
    In the real world, battles and athletic competitions are often won by the people with lesser talent and abilities. There have been wars won by much smaller armies with inferior weapons because the victors had stronger desires to fight than their enemies.
    Hmm, Appalachian State vs Michigan comes to mind right off the bat.

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Jin Wuming's logic was that because LITTLE LI FLYING DAGGER Li Xunhuan and Ye Kai are on the good side, their weapons have the highest moral value (一件兵器的真正价值). Therefore, they should be ranked #1 --> I'm fine with his logic up to this point, but he crossed the line when he/Gu Long said that LITTLE LI FLYING DAGGER Li Xunhuan can basically defeat EVERYBODY because he's on the good side.

    Besides, what if LITTLE LI FLYING DAGGER Li Xunhuan were to face another opponent who is 为了公道和正义而战? Surely that is a possible scenario. Who will win then?
    I think the gist is that unlike some scrub with a sabre who is fighting for good, Li Xunhuan's attainment in martial arts stems from his conviction and heart. I think a good analogy would be Sweeper Monk in DGSD. Some other guy who never learnt martial arts but was similarly enlightened as Sweeper might not be able to tap Murong Bo. Li managed to learn martial arts which happened to be accentuated by his own deep convictions.

    So what GL was trying to say is that Li's already Godly martial arts just happened to be backed by this incredible conviction in his heart which gives an invincible combination.

    For your last question, I think I need to bring up Sweeper Monk again. If 2 Sweeper Monks wanted to _kill_ one another, who would win? Answer is it'll never happen right? 2 为了公道和正义而战 Xia's would just get together and kick the nearest bad guy's butt, leave both their girlfriends and be angst filled and sad for the rest of the 7 books while retaining the ability to kill bad guys who attained level 11 in Ming Yue Gong with one backward flip of a chopstick because the chopstick was representing righteousness and justice.
    Last edited by CC; 09-06-07 at 01:55 AM.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

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    PJ, I pretty much agree with CC's response to your question. His answer is much more interesting and funnier than mine ever could be though. CC's the man.

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